Finger on the Trigger?

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numaone

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When police/military are clearing a building, where do they keep their trigger finger? Do they have it in the trigger guard or resting out on the slide (a safter, but slower location)?

Second, if they have a SA/DA gun, will they have the hammer back?

Thanks,
Numaone
 
This varries greatly with personal preference and training .. My pistol is striker fired, so, no hammer to bring back , but when I was active and carried the M9, my ships policy was NOT to bring the weapon into single action .. as far as finger placement .. training states outside the trigger guard , I personaly , rest just above , again , this is what I do , Im a LEO now , and was Military , In no way , is my way the best for everyone, It's just what I was used too.

Im very sure, you are going to get alot of varried replies to this, depending on what unit people spent time with , where they deployed and what not .. Hope you find some of my inane rambiling helpfull
 
The ones who have all those 'ND's, I will guess, have their fingers-on-the-triggers...
 
Finger goes on the trigger when the sights come on target in preparatory to firing (that is, when a decision to fire has been made), sights off target, finger goes off trigger and in register outside the trigger guard. Most organizations train till this is reflex. And safeties are used reflexively also- low ready, safety goes on, weapon comes up, safety goes off. NDs can be (and have been) caused by projections on your own gear accidentially tripping your trigger, as well as an errant trigger finger.

And it's not enough slower that anyone would notice to do it this way. But it IS safer.

You don't want to have your finger on the trigger of an unsafetied weapon when moving deliberately (shooting on the move is different). If you get startled, trip or stumble, it's reflexive for your fingers to tighten- and what follows can be tragic.

Before you attempt any of these techniques yourself, get yourself some professional training at the hands of a competent instructor. This is not something to experiment with or practice unsupervised- it is dangerous business.

lpl
 
You don't want to have your finger on the trigger of an unsafetied weapon when moving deliberately (shooting on the move is different). If you get startled, trip or stumble, it's reflexive for your fingers to tighten- and what follows can be tragic.
Click to expand...

Or hilarious, like on this video :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RePHUDJ1ElU

Seriously, though, this kind of shows why finger on trigger is bad...
 
No agency I know of would train finger on the trigger while clearing a building or doing ANYTHING other than shooting a threat. As a matter of fact, I cleared a house a couple of weeks ago on a burg in progress call. As I went around a corner, I came face to face with a life-sized skeleton with a cowboy hat on. I can promise you I would have shot that thing in the head had I had my finger on the go switch! As it was, I only had to change my underwear.
 
Finger off the trigger, safety on! You will have plenty of time to disengage the safety and and get you finger on the trigger as you bring your sights on the target.

Years ago I was breacher while serving a warrant. We knew the back door to the residence was heavily barricaded and it would take a long time to breach. We also knew that the front door was not used by the residents and a couch was pushed up against it. The plan was for one team to loudly start breaching the back door while the main effort went in the front door which the CI had told us was only secured by a standard lock and couch against it.

We made the approach undetected and both teams got into position. I tried the door handle and discovered that the front door was unlocked. I put the ram down and knew I'd just have to hit the door hard enough with my shoulder to knock the couch out of the way. The signal was given and the team at the back door knocked on it hard and announced "POLICE WITH A SEARCH WARRANT!!" 30 seconds later I hit the door as hard as I could and it pushed the couch out of the way enough that I could enter. I stepped over the back of the couch and on a subject we didn't know was in the house who was sleeping on the couch, he was halfway on the couch and halfway on the floor and we were sort of tangled up. I was off balance and unable to move or I would have went down. The rest of the team moved past us (the subject and I) and secured the house, the last man through assisted me with securing the subject and regaining my balance. The house and all the occupants were secured in seconds and no evidence was destroyed and no one was injured.

If I had the safety off on my AR and my finger on the trigger when I climbed over the back of the couch there easily could have been an ND resulting in injury or worse.

I know that some teams did/do operate with safeties off but everyone that I personally know who did that was stuck with the old MP5 and the awful ergonomics of the controls.

There is no reason to have your finger on the trigger until you have made the decision to shoot. No reason at all, it is simply too unsafe.
 
Peakbagger46 said:
As a matter of fact, I cleared a house a couple of weeks ago on a burg in progress call. As I went around a corner, I came face to face with a life-sized skeleton with a cowboy hat on. I can promise you I would have shot that thing in the head had I had my finger on the go switch! As it was, I only had to change my underwear.
Click to expand...
Probably scared you spitless at the time, but now it's good for a laugh! :D

Oh, and thanks for what you do. I'm active duty, but I always think the occupational hazards of LEOs and FFs outweigh mine when averaged out over time...
 
Ragnar,
Poor selection of equipment and it's placement on the body and not knowing what you will encounter especially in the dark is why I recommend safety on. It's very easy for something to get in the trigger guard and cause an ND. When operating in the dark it's easy to trip, run into things and even have to go HTH with a suspect.

I know some teams, especially those still armed with MP5s run with the safety off, but that's attributable to the terrible ergonomics of that platform.

I've always trained and operated with the safety on, it goes off as you bring the weapon to bear and finger goes on the trigger when the sights are on the target.

Naturally this will be dependent on the ergonomics of your weapon. For instance when I was issued a S&W 5906 I only used the safety as a decocker because I never mastered running the slide mounted safety.

Safety on or off during tactical operations is an ongoing debate. I'm squarely in the camp of safety on.
 
I'm a finger off, hammer down, safety off advocate. Need to engage the safety, then by all means do so. Train and or prefer finger on and hammer back? Not fine and you don't get to participate. Train and/or prefer safety on? Fine.
 
Finger goes on the trigger when the sights come on target in preparatory to firing
Click to expand...

Correct. I would never run with guys that didn't operate this way, as the habits they're getting into invite disaster, and I don't wish to be within the effective range of the weapon when it strikes. With the right platform and a shooter dedicated to practice, no speed is lost disengaging the manual safety on when moving on target, and re-engaging when moving off.

Handguns are different, IMO. As weapons intended to be defensive in nature, or to back up long guns, they spend most of their time either in a holster, or in the hand when it's time to shoot. This is in contrast with a carbine, which will be in hand or at hand throughout an offensive operation. In addition, handguns carried by police officers and Soldiers have heavier trigger pulls (first pulls, if DA/SA) to help prevent discharge from being hung up on equipment, which isn't a risk if they reside in a serviceable holster. If I'm drawing my handgun, it's because I'm shooting it, as opposed to an M4 which will be carried hundreds of hours for each shot fired in anger.

I agree that ergonomics are a factor. I carry my M9 decocked, safety off since my stubby little thumbs have trouble consistently disengaging it while rapidly coming on target.
 
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And safeties are used reflexively also- low ready, safety goes on, weapon comes up, safety goes off.
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I disagree with you on this one. Safeties should be off when the gun is out. If you have it out, it is because you are ready to use it. There are many examples of people missing their manual safeties during stressful events. This is one of the resons so many service pistols have no external thumb safety. If your pistol has an external saftey (like a 1911) it should come on before the pistol goes to holster.
 
I disagree with you on this one. Safeties should be off when the gun is out. If you have it out, it is because you are ready to use it. There are many examples of people missing their manual safeties during stressful events.
Click to expand...

People missing their safeties during stressful events suggests that have not properly trained on the weapon they are using. It's a training issue, nothing more. When I switched from a Glock 21 to a 1911 for a duty weapon I did probably 5000 practice draws both dry and live fire before I started carrying the 1911 on duty. One has an obligation to train with whatever platform he uses. A single action pistol or semi auto rifle or shotgun without the safety on is an ND waiting to happen when operating indoors, in close quarters and especially in the dark.
 
Being a lefty and being in LE a while back I had A BHP that i would take out of my holster cock the hammer and keep finger off the trigger. Revolvers I treated different and kept them double action finger on trigger.

This may be an overrated concern in the man familiur with weapons though. M1 Grand, M1A1, Marlin Camp rifles require you finger inside the trigger guard to switch off.

I agree with the safety boys though safety on and finger along side trigger guard. I will admitt to overriding this though during dangerous circumstances. Problem is a dangerous cirmstance for me may not be for you or vis versa. Bottom line if that weapon is in your hand, discharges and hits someone who is not a threat good luck in explaining why.


Jim
 
Safety on or off during tactical operations is an ongoing debate. I'm squarely in the camp of safety on.
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IMO, this is something of an AR/M16 specific practice. A mini-14, M1 carbine, Garand, AK, anything with a crossbolt safety, or any handgun with anything other than a 1911-style safety is not very conducive to flicking the safety on and off and on and off as you raise and lower the weapon. And it is my observation that even most 1911 users flick off the safety during the draw and put it back on prior to reholstering, rather than going on and off and on and off while the weapon is in use.

The AR allows profligate use of the safety without much ergonomic or time penalty, but it is something of an exception in that regard, and not all AR-tailored practices can necessarily be directly translated to other platforms, IMO.
 
We made the approach undetected and both teams got into position. I tried the door handle and discovered that the front door was unlocked. I put the ram down and knew I'd just have to hit the door hard enough with my shoulder to knock the couch out of the way. The signal was given and the team at the back door knocked on it hard and announced "POLICE WITH A SEARCH WARRANT!!" 30 seconds later I hit the door as hard as I could and it pushed the couch out of the way enough that I could enter. I stepped over the back of the couch and on a subject we didn't know was in the house who was sleeping on the couch, he was halfway on the couch and halfway on the floor and we were sort of tangled up. I was off balance and unable to move or I would have went down. The rest of the team moved past us (the subject and I) and secured the house, the last man through assisted me with securing the subject and regaining my balance. The house and all the occupants were secured in seconds and no evidence was destroyed and no one was injured.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a rude awakening for both parties involved.
 
When I'm clearing a building the safety stays ON until I see a target. The finger OFF trigger until I decide to destroy the target.

That's how I was trained, and it works well for me. Safety going OFF is second nature with me and my 1911s.
 
You know Ken with the ambi safeties and pistols like Glock I would never do what I did with a High Power. I was shown a police officer early in my job which showed a dead police officer who had the drop on the BG but failed to take the safety off on his HP. I still have mightmares on occasion of trying to pull the trigger and nothing works. My Kimber CDP has an ambi safety and I do not believe it affects my time a bit. Shotguns safety on till needed but I used 870"s from about 11 years off age on and was very quick with the right hand safety, and of course thetop mounted safeties were easy.


Jim
 
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