In a stressed situation, does one notice a difference?

[txhoghunter]

In a stressed situation, does one notice a difference between a DA trigger vs. a SA trigger?

I ask this because some people say that when carrying a SAO pistol (i.e. a 1911) the safety should not come off until you have acquired your target. I feel that the safety should come off while drawing and that your trigger finger should be the safety that will keep from firing prematurely.

Wouldn't an adrenaline rush make it just as easy to fire a gun with a DA trigger as one with SA trigger?

I don't own a SAO pistol, and have no experience in a situation like this with one. I just know that with adrenaline flowing, the DAO action of a Glock seemed much easier to fire than when just shooting at the range.

 

[Jeff White]

If you don't have enough training with your weapon, be it single or double action, it is going to feel like cinder block in your hand.

Training is the key to this problem. You will not rise to the challenge in a stressful situation, you will default to the level you have trained at. If you have enough correct repetitions drawing your weapon you can disable the safety device on the draw and not hit the trigger till your sights are on the target.

Wouldn't an adrenaline rush make it just as easy to fire a gun with a DA trigger as one with SA trigger?

What kind of trigger pull do you think you will make during the adrenalin rush? Do you think you make a nice smooth press or do you think you may mash the trigger and jerk the shot off target?

Training, training and more training....the only solution to the problem.

 

[shockwave]

Jeff is correct: it's all about training. It's not just about firearms, either. Things like parachuting and scuba diving, rock climbing and martial arts. Your first few emergencies are almost paralyzing. As you train and practice, you get more comfortable being in "the zone."

In an adrenaline rush, you will definitely resort to the level of your training. Part of it is kinesthetic grooving - your mind and muscles will develop a kind of memory that reacts faster than you can mentally process. This is why martial artists can do things that ordinary people cannot.

 

[txhoghunter]

Sorry, I am having problems phrasing what I am trying to ask. I'm saying that I didn't notice the extra strength that it required to fire the Glock when my adrenaline was going. When I shoot it at the range, I notice the difference between the DAO Glock and the SA of my Sig P220. However, when I had to use the Glock against a feral dog, the pull was so smooth I barely felt it.

The adrenaline did not cause me to miss the shots, I performed as I practiced from the draw to the shooting. I actually had 4 out of 6 hit their mark (a running pitbull).

Again, I'm not having a problem with this. I'm just trying to ask if anyone else can see where I'm coming from if I say that in a high stress environment a DA trigger feels the same as a SA? Or was my experience more unique than commonplace?

 

[txhoghunter]

People say that a SA gun will cause a ND if you disengage the manual safety before you are on target and I guess I'm trying to make a legitimate argument that a ND is just as possible with a DA gun as it is with a SA gun that has the safety disengaged on the draw.

Does anyone see that as a legitimate statement? Or am I on my own with this one?

 

[Jeff White]

I guess I'm trying to make a legitimate argument that a ND is just as possible with a DA gun as it is with a SA gun that has the safety disengaged on the draw.

The safety has nothing to do with the ND. The finger on the trigger has everything to do with it. Single action, double action...it makes no difference if your finger is on the trigger when it shouldn't be. The 12 or more pounds of a double action trigger is not a safety device.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Fortunately I don't have firsthand knowledge on this one, but I have heard of cases where a ND was caused by a lightened SA trigger on a 1911 or BHP (or so the prosecutor tried to claim), and stories of people breaking the trigger on revolvers with locked up cylinders under stress.
So in my opinion I doubt there would be much of a difference, if any. So as Mr. White said, your nose drill is your most important and final safety.

 

[SentinelStrategic]

The safety has nothing to do with the ND. The finger on the trigger has everything to do with it. Single action, double action...it makes no difference if your finger is on the trigger when it shouldn't be. The 12 or more pounds of a double action trigger is not a safety device.

Exactly.
Nearly every ND is caused by fingers on triggers when they shouldn't be. Few have been attributed to other issues like mechanical malfunctions (custom triggers that are too light and causing slam-fires, etc.).
As it's been stated, it's all about training. You will pull the trigger the same as how you practice it. Unfortunately, a lot of people think that shooting 2 boxes of ammo at the range 3-4 times per year is enough to constitute good training, and it's really not. Dry firing drills at home is an excellent way to practice trigger pull, but it's only part of equation. You need to learn how to handle the weapon under recoil, and when to perform your follow-up shots by sufficiently controlling the weapon and getting back on-target. One thing I've seen as an instructor is that people have learned to index their trigger fingers correctly (for the most part) along the frame, but very little is trained on when the finger goes into the trigger guard and onto the trigger, and when it goes back to being indexed. Unfortunately, this is often something that cannot be definitively defined. One thing I've seen is that when people go to the trigger, they either leave it there even after they don't need it there, or they take it off immediately and prematurely exit "the fight". It takes some personal prioritization as to how you perceive a threat, but an important aspect of it is knowing when to index and when not to, and what you consider to be sufficiently dangerous or sufficiently safe.
It's a little more defined and definite in a LE/MIL role than it is in a self defense citizen carry/home protection situation.

Our neighboring agency has had two OIS incidents in the past year and a half. All officers involved shot exactly as they had trained. They have a very good firearms training program, so they all were able to make lethal hits right away. They never noticed anything out of the ordinary when it came to the trigger on their Glocks. It didn't feel like the trigger was really heavy or really light. They just noticed that it was exactly like when they did their training at the range.

 

[Cop Bob]

Hummm

4 out of 6 hits on a small running target.... better than most...

it was stated earlier... Practice, practice, practice...

Train like you fight, fight like you train...

 

[txhoghunter]

4 out of 6 hits on a small running target.... better than most...

I was actually surprised that all of those rounds found their mark, but I sure as heck am glad that they did (and I don't expect it to happen again if I need it to unless I keep practicing whenever I get the chance). It has however made me practice my draw much more because I don't know how it would have turned out if I did not already have the gun out unholstered.

 

[easyg]

In a stressed situation, does one notice a difference between a DA trigger vs. a SA trigger?

If you're scared to death and just shooting as fast as you can and not even aiming, then probably not.

But if you're stressed but still have your wits about you and still taking controlled aimed shots, then yes, you should notice the difference.

 

[Cop Bob]

in a word... NO

During a shooting incident...

Slow time kicks in... no matter how fast your tell yourself to move or act,, Your mind outruns your body... your still moving fast, probably faster that you ever have.. But in your mind, which is now in hyper-drive it is not fast enough..

The adrenaline dump is so strong... that many officers report not remembering that they even drew or shot... Some have stated, "I didn't hear the gun go off, I didn't feel the gun go off"... but they often remember the muzzle flash and seeing it jump in their had,, Most cannot tell you how many rounds they fired, only reacting to the empty magazine.. or the suspect going down..

So something as finite as a trigger pull... I really don;t think that it is a factor... Experience over time has changed training into more realistic scenarios that in days gone by, because it has been proven that under stress you will revert back to your training...

This is why proper practice is so important. Consistency in grip, trigger control are so important, consistency in safe gun handling practices, loading and reloading.. it, even if you don't realize it becomes part of your rote memory... under stress you will revert to what you know... learn it right the first time.

Practice does not make perfect... Perfect Practice Make Perfect...

 

[ms6852]

In a stressful situation everything is different, things happen so fast it seems that you are standing still and not moving fast enough. You wish you could control your heartbeat, you forget to breathe, everything is a blur. You do not even realize that your hand gun is in your hand. You do not remember drawing. But in reality you have already done several things at once but somehow it does not seem enough and you may want to double check yourself. That is why practice,practice,practice is so important. You do not want to second guess yourself, you want it to be instinctive.

 

[One-Time]

the only difference i noticed is some thing were in slo mo yet my gun leaped into my hand and i didnt even feel the trigger pull, just BOOM

 

[txhoghunter]

the only difference i noticed is some thing were in slo mo yet my gun leaped into my hand and i didnt even feel the trigger pull, just BOOM

This is kind of how I felt. The only difference is I only really felt 2 or 3 shots, but fired a total of 6. I didn't even notice the report of the shots and my hearing is typically very sensitive.

 

[gamestalker]

In your initial post you said you don't own a SA. Yet in a corresponding post your stating that you are comparing your Glock DA to your Sig P220 SA? If you own both(?) I would think you could train with BOTH, until your comfortable and competent with BOTH.
Or am I missing something?

 

[9mmepiphany]

People say that a SA gun will cause a ND if you disengage the manual safety before you are on target and I guess I'm trying to make a legitimate argument that a ND is just as possible with a DA gun as it is with a SA gun that has the safety disengaged on the draw.

Does anyone see that as a legitimate statement? Or am I on my own with this one?

The problem arises from you trying to get a specific answer to backup your point of view, rather than actually looking for information

You further tried to skew the answer,to set up your situation, by stating:

...some people say that when carrying a SAO pistol (i.e. a 1911) the safety should not come off until you have acquired your target. I feel that the safety should come off while drawing and that your trigger finger should be the safety that will keep from firing prematurely.

Since I believe that the thumb safety should only be disengaged, especially by the less practiced, not only after you have acquired your target, but after you have made the conscious decision to shoot, your situation will produce a less than useful answer.

You answer is contained in the YouTube clip of the female LEO who has an ND when running up on a already proned out suspect.

A true DAO trigger, like that on a revolver, Sig DAK or H&K LEM, would be expected give you enough tactile feedback, should you start putting pressure on the trigger to avoid a ND more readily than Glock's partially cocked action. I carried a Sig 220 and 226 DA/SA as a duty gun and did not find that the DA first shot was an impediment to an accurate first shot...at least out to ~10 yards...but it's longer travel and increased feedback did allow me to stop the trigger pull when a suspect suddenly dropped their gun.

I the situation you've set up, I would say that a Glock is more prone to ND than a 1911 with the safety engaged and still more likely with the safety dis-engaged. It has been my experience, in 28 years, that most folks who carry a 1911 as a duty gun have better trigger discipline than most users of other platforms