Firearm training - how much do you need/at what point is it diminishing returns

[newbie4help]

I realize that you can never PRACTICE enough.

But how much formal TRAINING does one need? And at some point it'll be useless...you'll just need to keep practicing. What are these limits? How much does an average concealed carry person need? I'm looking for NRA courses in my area and having trouble finding appropriate ones. I found another company that offers a basic pistol course for $70 and the guy that teaches it has a very impressive resume from what I can tell....

obviously I won't hit the limit of "diminishing returns" more than likely, but I'm just curious.

 

[Bubba613]

Depends on what you mean by "need." For 90+% of self defense situations, about 1 hour learning to operate the gun is all you "need."
To become reasonably competent with the gun, a lot more than that.
To become proficient with the gun, a lot more than that.
Spending big bucks to attend one of the name schools is, imo, a waste of money. You might learn lots of stuff but unless you have comparable facitilites to practice those skills, they will quickly go down the crapper.
A little practice on a regular basis beats a lot of instruction one time.
Doubtless people here will scream that unless you sign up for 2 day courses shooting thousands of rounds you might as well lie down in the gutter and die. Unfortunately facts don't back up those assertions.

 

[sherman123]

I don't think spending money on professional training is a waste of all but obviously most of us can't afford to take every single course out there. All I've taken is Handgun level 1 and 2 at TDI and although I'd love to take every class I'm in college and can't afford anymore right now. I feel the training I do on my own time is
way more important however. The two day training course wouldn't have done much of anything if I never practiced on my own.

 

[newbie4help]

So give me the low down on how to train at home. I'm barely satisfied with my shooting ability at the range, but I'm gettin gbetter and try to do lots of dry fire exercises.

Should I just practice quickly drawing and dry firing in different scenarios around my house (but imagining its outside around a car or building or something that I might encounter). Are there good websites showing home dry fire drills?

Is it true that dry firing is better than live firing (or at least you should dry fire 100 times for every 1 live on or something) because it builds better muscle memory and tecnique?

 

[Bubba613]

Look for a local IDPA club. People scream about how it isn't training, and it isnt. But it is practice in the most basic skills of draw, aim, fire, reload. Look at videos. Practice dry firing at home. Read. That will beat 90% of the gun owners out there.

 

[Dulvarian]

Lol, a friend of mine was trying to talk me into doing the Blackwater course. I don't think I need it, but I think it would be hella fun.

That being said, I do draw and (dry)fire exercises from my SOB carry almost every day. The practice has gotten so that I can thumb the safety off and fire single action as I'm coming to target. I figure if there is anything I need to be able to do in an instant it is that.

I don't think there really is a diminishing return on the muscle memory of drawing, aiming, and firing. Just like martial arts. You train so that you can do it without really thinking about it when you have to. That S&W guy that shoots six rounds from a revolver in less than a second is about the epitome of fast, accurate shooting. I don't know, is that the point of diminishing returns? When you are setting world records?

I would love to live out in the middle of nowhere like I did when I was growing up, where I could just walk out into the back yard and shoot.

 

[Jeff White]

And at some point it'll be useless...you'll just need to keep practicing.

No, you need to continually train. Only perfect practice makes perfect performance. The practice you do on your own will never be as effective as the practice you do under the watchful eye of a good instructor. You will unconsciously slip into bad habits or make mistakes in your execution.

Spring training is going on right now in Florida and Arizona. And the best baseball players in the world are not practicing, they are training. Albert Pujols arguably the best player currently playing major league baseball perfects his swing under the watchful eye of Cardinals hitting coach Hal McRae. Why do you think that he does that? Because he's contractually obligated to? No, he does that because he's a professional.

All professional sports teams employ coaches and trainers to work with the best players in the world. While it may seem ridiculous to think of Albert Pujols spending time every day hitting the ball off a tee like a preschool age ball player that is exactly what he does. And he does it under the watchful eye of the hitting coach.

We don't retain physical skills forever. Shooting is a skill that deteriorates just like any other skill. I have heard that proficiency begins to drop off for most shooters eight days after training.

Training is a continuous cycle. You train, practice, evaluate, train, execute, evaluate and then start the cycle again. Forget what you hear about advanced skills when it comes to shooting. There are no advanced skills, just people who are very, very good at the basics.

Professional athletes are extremely talented. They have some gift, better then average eyesight, almost superhuman hand/eye coordination, speed or stamina....But with out someone to train them to be very, very good at the basic skills their sport requires, they will never perform to their potential.

 

[Tim Burke]

I was going to reply... but Jeff hasn't left much for me to say.

 

[cactusgeorge]

Practice

I tell the students that I train that a minimum of 50 hours of professional firearms instruction is needed to develope the proper shooting and gun handling techniques required to become proficient with a hand gun. The "operative word" being proficient. This means safely deploying your weapon, being able hit the target consistently with speed and precicion. presenting your weapon safely with speed and precision, understanding the principles of SST (sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control), clearing malfunctions safely and properly. Having been professionally taught those and couple more techniques, you are now obliged to set up a DRY PRACTICE regimen, if you are dedicated to becoming the skilled shooter you want to become. Without investing in the professional training FIRST, you will never become that competent shooter you envision yourself to be. One can not learn all these proper tecniques by reading a book or watching some third rate video once or twice. Shooting a firearm is a learned skill, there are no, nor have there been any natural born shooters..!! I use the analogy of the golfer who wants to become the "scratch golfer" and goes out every week, hits a bucket of balls and plays 18 holes. After many months of this, he starts to wonder why he is not elevating his game. Well, all he is doing is practicing his mistakes..!! The same applys to shooting a firearm...you MUST first learn the proper techniques from a professional instructor, then dry practice these techniques religiously on a weekly basis to raise your skill level to the competency level you desire. If you practice crap...all you will ever become is a "crap master"..!! Good luck....

 

[chuckusaret]

I was trained for over 24 years in the military, attended several self defense training schools after retirement and range practice as often as possible but at least monthly. If time and the dollars were available I would attend at least one advanced training course per year. There is no such thing as too much training.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Training is good, constant use of items are good. Practice is better.

I recently swapped large targets to smaller life size Gopher targets for wife and I to shoot on at 30 feet instead of the usual 20 feet. I hope that a human is a MUCH bigger target than those tiny doggies. But that is one way Im trying to break the "Same-old-same-old" routine and introduce variety and new problems in regular practice.

Earlier shooting had me taking gun from shoulder, racking, placing gun back onto shoulder etc. Now it stays on the shoulder until the entire tube is empty.

Faster, move things along faster, always trying to shoot smaller targets and get consistent.

This month Gophers, maybe next month squirrels at 40 feet. You might think we are nutz but if we can plink little game at 40 feet that is about as good as we can hope for with markmanship.

I might try life sized deer targets at 100 yards. But not until I feel good about shooting close.

Reductions in returns becomes a problem when boredom sets in for us. So we fight that by making changes and add interest/purpose. Big square targets were boring the wife said. So, I present little animals to her. That started me thinking about boredom, routine and same-old... that is a most dangerous rut to be in.

 

[YammyMonkey]

I'll second what Jeff put up & just add that during a foce on force scenario last week I fumbled a reload. Granted, I was using a cover garment that was more restrictive than what I'm used to but I still almost tossed my spare mag in the dirt. This was also directly after having 2 days of training with Tactical Response & in the early afternoon of the first day so I wasn't out of practice or just up in the morning or getting tired late at night.

As a point of reference for the above, at that point I had at least 250 hours of taking & teaching classes & God only knows how many (thousands?) hours of practice.

At some point you will see diminishing returns, but at that point you're not training to be just okay at it, you're training because you know enough to realize that you'll need every edge you possibly can get.

Starting from square one I'd recommend something along the following as a bare minimum in roughly the order I think they should be run:

NRA Basic Pistol
NRA Personal Protection in the Home
An intermediate level pistol course covering draw, movement, etc. where you spend most of your time on the range with basic defensive skills
Tactical Response Fighting Pistol
SouthNarc's Practical Unarmed Combatives, In Extremis Knife & Extreme Close Quarters Concepts
OPS Surgical Speed Shooting
Tactical Response The Fight
OPS Tactical Dynamics
SouthNarc's Armed Movement in Structures
The Rogers School Intermediate/Advanced Course

That's just handgun training. I certainly wouldn't say you need to take all of them right after another or even in the same year. There are some classes on that list that I haven't been to & some that I've taken more than once. I'm not perfect- far from it, but I know that. When you're starting off you don't even know what you don't know. Some of the early steps can be skipped if you're dialed in enough to be comfortable in a class that involves drawing, movement, shooting from odd positions, etc. Some of the above courses can be substitued with others, for instance Suarez International's Close Range Gunfighting for Fighting Pistol but some of those, most notably ECQC, AMIS, Surgical Speed Shooting & The Rogers Shool should be part of any serious shooter's training. Throw in at least one trip to the National Tactical Invitational & you've built a good base for handgun skills.

Dry fire & range practice are great & absolutely necessary, but without good training you don't know if what you're doing is good or a waste of time. You can only learn so much from books & DVDs before you need to have someone on the line with you to help you get better. Ask any top tier instructor, competitor or operator about continuing to train & they'll tell you that they never stop. If you make yourself the eternal student you won't be wrong.

 

[Bix]

I try to take a basic/introductory class every year (in addition to whatever else I can fit into the schedule). I always learn something. I, like many others, have even retaken the same introductory class with the same instructor and still learned something.

It's hard to say whether the returns are diminishing. I certainly don't learn the same volume of material as I did the first time out. But the little nuggets that I do pick up can be valuable. When a good instructor sees that you can do the basics, he or she will look for more subtle issues. I had a little problem with my grip addressed in a 'refresher' intro class that immediately affected how my sights track during recoil. That has proven to be tremendously valuable to me. I guess it all depends on what you're trying to achieve.

 

[mbt2001]

Pistol Craft is virtually becoming a "martial art" and I do not mean that as a compliment. Every Tom, Dick and Harry are teaching "firearms courses" and most of the time these folks have a LACK of training themselves.

My advice, is be careful how you spend you money.

Edit -

I totally agree with Jeff, but I will again remind all of us that hanging a shingle does not a "professional" make. I think we have all had experience with that.

 

[Fred Fuller]

All the time I see people here on THR discussing what gun they or someone else should buy- A, which costs $X, or B, which costs $3X.

The usual question that gets posed somewhere in the course of the discussion is, "Well- how much is your life worth to you?"

I'd say the same sort of question applies to training. So many people are willing to discuss the possible consequences of pinching pennies on the cost of a new gun, yet unwilling to consider the consequences of not mastering the use of the hardware.

Hardware vs. software. It always seems to come down to willingness to spend money on hardware, justifying the need for absolute reliability in its potential lifesaving role. Very few on THR seem willing to argue that scrimping on buying this or that piece of hardware is a good idea or a reasonable thing to do.

But pay for professional training in its use? Heaven forfend!

lpl

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Well, I believe that there are training availible in my area, just need to look into it. I dont exactly expect a shoot house MOUT type scenario with live fire. But an oppertunity to be presented a problem and run through it.

In short, drills are good. Those with qualified instructors are really good.

I too have a feeling that every tom, dick and harry as it was put is trying to make a living teaching others.

Arent we as Gun Owners responsible for sharing with others and try to pass on Commandments and other things? Some of these things are bought and paid for by others in blood and/or life long before we came along buying a gun.

 

[Girodin]

Spending big bucks to attend one of the name schools is, imo, a waste of money. You might learn lots of stuff but unless you have comparable facitilites to practice those skills, they will quickly go down the crapper.
A little practice on a regular basis beats a lot of instruction one time.

Practicing things incorrectly or practicing the wrong things does one little good. A weekend or even a week long class wont make you a commado but it will give you a good a basis to go build on.

The fact is even someone who has grown up shooting guns and is fairly familar with them probably doesn't know much about defensive shooting.

When you're starting off you don't even know what you don't know.

Like anything else you want to shop around and do your research but I agree it is astounding that people will buy a gun, carry it around everyday, yet refuse to seek professional training in becoming proficient with it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

There is no substitute for having a qualified instructor watch you and comment on what he sees you do. And I take classes from good instructors regularly and always learn something new.

 

[maksim]

I would think it is all about dimishing returns.

Now I do agree that having the most education possible is the best outcome, however many folks are unfortunetly restricted.

Heck, why not join the state guard, or an army unit? without a doubt you would have training.

as per the 80/20 rule... 80 percent of what you need to learn, can come from 20 percent of all your training. the more specialized courses will only improve you marginally once you are proficient and competent.

 

[mljdeckard]

Diminishing returns does not mean NO returns. There does come a point where you have learned all you can on your own, to the limit of what you have been shown, and you may want to look for more advanced training. I look at it this way. Massad Ayoob takes a week out of every year to train. He's not convinced there is no benefit to it.

Having said that, there is a practical limit to what most of us have the time and money to do. I would shoot all night every night if I had the money. I would suggest, that if you carry, you should be shooting 1-200 rounds a month with your carry gun and equipment, practicing draws, reholstering, reloading, clearing stoppages, and failure drills with strong hand, weak hand, and both hands alone, as a bare minimum.

After that, I switch to the .22 kit and shoot until both hands are tired.

Oh, and by the way, in the guard, (or most active army units for that matter,) you will shoot 52 rounds a year with your rifle, if you're lucky.

 

[mbt2001]

I didn't say don't train, I think training is great. Be careful of snake oil salesmen though.

 

[sm]

See: Jeff post 7

Tim post 8
Lee post 15

To which I will stress the importance of correct basic fundamentals.

When one screws up, the problem can be traced back to something(s) in the correct basic fundamentals they did not do correctly.

Not just shooting, this includes keeping the gun fed, concealing of weapon in a holster, drawing from holster, stance, grip, mounting shotgun to face, follow thru,...etc.

This applies to non-firearm defensive , and no weapon defensive.

This is why so many folks, with years of experience, and hours upon hours of training, still take the basic courses over and over again.

This is why when the Military or LEO Dept or Agency will have a training class when a new weapon is introduced, and they start at square one with the correct basic fundamentals of that weapon.

See Jeff post 7.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I will stress the importance of correct basic fundamentals....This is why so many folks, with years of experience, and hours upon hours of training, still take the basic courses over and over again.

Exactly. Good training isn't about arcane techniques or "secrets of the ninjas." It's primarily about the fundamentals -- executed very well, consistently, without conscious thought and on demand. I don't think that one can be too good at the fundamentals. And it's further about at lease maintaining, and hopefully continuing to improve, one's achieved level of proficiency at the fundamentals.

 

[oldFred]

newbie4help,

The guys here are real enthusiasts and will be very complete in their recommendations, HOWEVER...

Dry firing is a waste of time IMHO. Unless you are just practicing aiming and draw quickness. We can never recommend enough how important it is for RANGE TIME. Print yourself some targets and setup 3 or more in the house and practice with an airsoft gun. What matters is that little projectile coming out of whatever you are shooting. You get to know bulletdrop at what range you are from the target and you aim accordingly...

What I do is setup three or more targets @ 15 to 25 yards and with my 1911 I put 1 round in each target, then I pause, holster, and draw again and put another 3 rounds in the orange...

Bullets don't always go where the sights dictate, but where the sights AND drop will put it at what distance...

You will also notice that sometimes you shoot to the left or right of where you aimed, this is OK. Get used to where it hits from where YOU pointed it and your compensation will come into its own... Hope I helped!

 

[JKimball]

I would agree with this:

Dry firing is a waste of time IMHO.

If you really are comfortable with this:

You will also notice that sometimes you shoot to the left or right of where you aimed, this is OK.

If you want to hit where you aim, dry firing does make a difference. Obviously you shouldn't rely on it alone though. I think it is very helpful at the range. Shoot some live rounds, if they aren't going where you aim them, switch to dry fire and see if your sights don't move when you pull the trigger. Another good trick is to stick a dummy round in a loaded magazine for a random dry fire.

newbie4help,

Until you've gotten some good basic training, you just don't know what you don't know, so it is difficult to practice.

Once you get some good basic training, try shooting an IDPA competition and you will probably have an opportunity to see some people that are a lot faster and more accurate than you. If you feel like you would really like to make up that difference, you're probably going to have to put some more money into it.