Fireball out the barrel of my modern Trapdoor carbine

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jval

jval

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I finally got what I need to reload 45-70 for my new Perdosoli Trapdoor carbine. I'm loading 57gr of H335 pushing a 300gr Hornady HP. I can't find any other powder except some old IMR 4198. I'm not sure how old or the conditions under which it was stored. Here's my question. I'm getting a long narrow 12 inch fireball ball out the end of my 22 "barrel with the H335. I assume it's unburned powder that does not get burned as the projectile goes down the barrel. Please comment on the fireball and using the old IMR 4198 powder. thanks
 
It's your powder. I'd try the 4198... Give it the sniff test, if it smells sour or acidic, it's fertilizer. If it's still in a metal IMR can, sprinkle a little on a white sheet of paper and look for clumps, or rust from moisture in the can.
 
IMR 4198 passes the sniff test and "no-clump" test. I had never used it before and was surprised to see it was a rod and not ball type. I will be using 45gr of IMR 4198 pushing a 30gr Hornady HP at 2,008 fps. Compare this to my previous fireball load of 57gr of H335 pushing a 30gr Hornady HP at 1901 fps. I'll post results as soon as I get to the range. I assume Hodgdon's data is based on the full-length Trapdoor rifle.

Any history as to why H4198 and IMR4198 are so vastly different since both owned by Hodgdon?
 
Ball powder is not well adapted to low pressure loads, no doubt blowing a lot of gas and powder out into a muzzle flash.

Originally IMR 4198 by DuPont, then IMR 4198 by IMR in Canada.
Reasonable approximation but not exact duplicate as H 4198 by ADI in Australia for Hodgdon. Use appropriate data.

I think IMR production moved from US to Canada around 1976.

Hodgdon distributes powder, IMR is made in Canada at a plant now owned by General Dynamics.
 
I guess it's up to the reloader to note the difference between two powders with the same number, H4198 and IMR4198. By the way, powder and primers are starting to show up at gun stores. I bought powder today at $56 a pound, 2x what it used to be. Also bought small rifle mag primers at 9.95 for 100, again, 3.5x what it used to be.
 
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You are talking a really hot load for a trapdoor carbine a 2000fps load will kill on both ends. Back in the days of black powder carbine ammo was loaded with 55grs of powder not 70. They did this because a rifle load could knock a Calvary man off his horse.
 
H335 at 57gr and a 300gr Hornady HP is only 1,901 fps and 17,500 cup. This is the load that produces a very manageable kick plus the fireball
IMR4895 at 57gr and 300gr Hornady HP is 1,826 fps and 21,700 cup. I'm hoping the IMR4895 will not produce a fireball like the H335.
IMR4198 at 45gr and a 300gr Hornady HP is 2,008 fps and 23,500 cup. (I agree, this is hot for the carbine) but, I bought it mainly for heavy lead

IMR4198 at 30gr and a 405gr Cast LFP, (gas check) is 1,370 fps at 17,000 cup

Thank you guys for your input.

The limit on my new Perdersoli Trapdoor is certified at 25,000 cup. All these numbers are from Hodgdon's online reload data
 
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You';re on the right path, depending on what you want out of your loads. I only shoot lead out of my Pedersoli 1885... my generic load mimics your IMR4198 load with the 405 cast; I get a touch more velocity out of my 32" barrel, however.

I agree... the Hodgdon IMR4198 load, although listed as a Trappy load, is getting up there in pressure. The IMR4895 load is going to give you some pretty good recoil. Before my 1885, I had a Marlin 1895. Loading the minimum 'lever-action' loads out of the Hodgdon manual with IMR's 3031, 4895, and 4064... the recoil was pretty brutal. So much so, that I wound up calling it off and eventually pulling almost 100 cartridges. Granted, I was not hunting with it, just shooting steel. IMR4198 has been my friend ever since.
 
H-4198 is my powder for the 45-70. But I shoot 350gr over 52gr in an 1895.

You might look at H-4895 and Varget. Or, get real proper and switch to cast over Holy Black. Which is what my original Trapdoors and Sharps get fed.
 
My grandsons love shooting all my guns. Last year, they were into 1892 levers, and my Uberti pistol, both in 45 LC. We experimented with different loads and had lots of fun at the reload table and at the range. This year, it's the history of the Trapdoor and trying to find a manageable, fun load to shoot at no more than 100 yds. So far, we have shot 300gr Hornadys with 57gr of H355 because that's all the powder I could find. Recoil is manageable, even for them. Here are the powders I now have: Trail Boss, Varget, IMR4198, IMR4895, H355. I have 300gr Hornadys and 405 cast gas check lead. Guys, I need your input. Please give me some ideas of good, SAFE loads for the modern Trapdoor carbine. I know what the Hodgdon tables say. I'm not a hunter, just a fun shooter. I want to show my grandsons how to develop a safe load for the 45-70 and enjoy shooting it too. They are 16 and 17. They will inherit all my guns, and will also know how to reload what they need to enjoy the sport. thanks
 
jval said:
H335 at 57gr and a 300gr Hornady HP is only 1,901 fps and 17,500 cup. This is the load that produces a very manageable kick plus the fireball
IMR4895 at 57gr and 300gr Hornady HP is 1,826 fps and 21,700 cup. I'm hoping the IMR4895 will not produce a fireball like the H335.
IMR4198 at 45gr and a 300gr Hornady HP is 2,008 fps and 23,500 cup. (I agree, this is hot for the carbine) but, I bought it mainly for heavy lead

IMR4198 at 30gr and a 405gr Cast LFP, (gas check) is 1,370 fps at 17,000 cup

Thank you guys for your input.

The limit on my new Perdersoli Trapdoor is certified at 25,000 cup. All these numbers are from Hodgdon's online reload data
Click to expand...
I think you might find the certified limit on your shoulder ligaments is a little bit under the action's pressure limits. ;)

Those are some mighty perky deer-busting loads you're putting together. I'm curious how the accuracy is with faster/lighter vs. slower/heavier in that carbine. I have the same carbine and only use it with 405gr. lead at BP-equivalent velocities using 22gr. of 2400 powder (right around 1200fps). That little single-shot is so light - and that metal butt-plate is so thin - that's about enough for me. In my Marlin '95, it's a whole nuther story. ;)
 
jval said:
H335 at 57gr and a 300gr Hornady HP is only 1,901 fps and 17,500 cup. This is the load that produces a very manageable kick plus the fireball
IMR4895 at 57gr and 300gr Hornady HP is 1,826 fps and 21,700 cup. I'm hoping the IMR4895 will not produce a fireball like the H335.
IMR4198 at 45gr and a 300gr Hornady HP is 2,008 fps and 23,500 cup. (I agree, this is hot for the carbine) but, I bought it mainly for heavy lead

IMR4198 at 30gr and a 405gr Cast LFP, (gas check) is 1,370 fps at 17,000 cup

Thank you guys for your input.

The limit on my new Perdersoli Trapdoor is certified at 25,000 cup. All these numbers are from Hodgdon's online reload data
Click to expand...
Be careful with those loads.
upload_2021-5-19_11-36-7.png
You're quoting: IMR4198 at 45gr and a 300gr Hornady HP is 2,008 fps and 23,500 cup
But Lyman's 48th (2002) says that load is over max. by 4gr. and is closer to your actin's limit of 25K cup.
Maybe Lyman's got it wrong - that happens - but be careful going that close to max.
 
Easy answer...30grn IMR4198 and a cast 405 gives me 1300fps out of my Pedersoli, 35grn right at 1500fps. The 30grn load is my standard, beyond that, the recoil starts to become a factor... not terrible, but if you are shooting 100 rounds on a weekend, it will add up.

You can also experiment with loading your bullets long... the rifling leade is quite long in my Pedersoli, I seat my bullets way out there. This formula does create more open space in the cartridge case, so you might have to experiment a bit with it... it might be a fun adventure for you and the kids.
 
My only experience with lead is loading 200gr for my 45 LC Uberti Colt and my 45 LC lever. I keep the velocities low to avoid leading. At what point or velocity do I need to be concerned about leading in the modern Trapdoor?
 
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jval said:
My only experience with lead is loading 200gr for my 45 LC Uberti Colt and my 45 LC lever. I keep the velocities low to avoid leading. At what point do I need to be concerned about leading in the modern Trapdoor?
Click to expand...

Leading is primarily caused by an improperly sized bullet for the bore. I regularly drive cast bullets over 2200fps without problems, but I know the bullet is sized for the bore.

My Pedersoli seems to like the generic .459" cast bullet size, that's where I would start. If you are not getting decent accuracy, and/or you are having leading problems, bump up to .460".. but I would be surprised if you needed to do that in a modern firearm.

I have a Savage 99 lever-action in .30-30. The generic cast .309" bullet everything else seems to like... this 99 shoots 16" at 100yds. I swapped to .310"... same bullet... and it shoots 4" at 100yds. The right bullet for the bore size.
 
AA5744 does what IMR4198 does, without the crumblies in the barrel.

EDIT: Now that I'm reading that, I have it backwards... IMR4198 does what AA5744 does... without the junk in the barrel that AA5744 leaves.
 
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