First BP Load
- Thread starter crummyshooter
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Crawdad1
Member
Looks like that bullet didn't stabilize and began to tumble down range. But fifty yards is awful close to tumble a bullet but it happens. I noticed another shot with smokeless(?) are you experimenting to change to BP or?
crummyshooter
Member
Just starting out and the only thing I had to play with was 2400. I found the Pyrodex and loaded 1 round. Still working on getting some FFg. I think I will put all that other stuff away and stick to real black powder.
whughett
Member
Hodgdon 25th Edition Manual page 489.
45/70 405 gr bullet. 52 grains pryodex ctg. powder. Makes no mention of RS being used in anything other than a muzzle loader.
Page 506 same book. 45/70 405 grain bullet 57 grains FFFg BP
This is a 1987 book so maybe times have changed.
Smokeless loads:
Lyman 45th edition;
405 grain jacketed bullet 2400 suggested start 22.0 grains Max 27 grains.
Nearest cast bullet was a 482 grain w/gas check. Suggested 2400 20.0 grains. Max. 23.
All direct quotes:
Hope it helps.
45/70 405 gr bullet. 52 grains pryodex ctg. powder. Makes no mention of RS being used in anything other than a muzzle loader.
Page 506 same book. 45/70 405 grain bullet 57 grains FFFg BP
This is a 1987 book so maybe times have changed.
Smokeless loads:
Lyman 45th edition;
405 grain jacketed bullet 2400 suggested start 22.0 grains Max 27 grains.
Nearest cast bullet was a 482 grain w/gas check. Suggested 2400 20.0 grains. Max. 23.
All direct quotes:
Hope it helps.
Last edited:
crummyshooter
Member
Thanks.
I have some Schutzen (sp?) FFg now. I think I'll work with that for a while
I have some Schutzen (sp?) FFg now. I think I'll work with that for a while
I have been using the Lyman Postell Bullet in my Pedersoli Silhouette Sharps with 65 grains of Vesuvit LC black Powder which equates to 3fg.I get about 3/16ths" compression on the Powder, a Card Wad and the Postell.I do not crimp the case or size it but just rely on the initial fireformimg,I use CCI Primers.
Vesuvit LC is a Chzech Black Powder and of high quality.They produce several powders for various uses,the LC is described as Sporting Powder and the one to use in rifles and shotguns.If used for Shotgun Cartridge loading 2.5 drams of Vesuvit LC and 1oz of Shot performs very well and got second place at this years MLAGB Hammergun Comp.
Vesuvit LC is a Chzech Black Powder and of high quality.They produce several powders for various uses,the LC is described as Sporting Powder and the one to use in rifles and shotguns.If used for Shotgun Cartridge loading 2.5 drams of Vesuvit LC and 1oz of Shot performs very well and got second place at this years MLAGB Hammergun Comp.
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tpelle
Member
There are two other issues to consider.
First, did you try it at longer range than 50 yards?
There is a "wobble" that occurs with bullets after they leave the muzzle. What happens is that, when the bullet is moving down the bore of the rifle, it is rotating around its "center of form". However, once free of the muzzle, the bullet transitions into a spin around its "center of mass". The two centers NEVER coincide. As the bullet makes the transition it wobbles until it fully makes the transition from "center of form" to "center of mass".
This was discovered around the end of WWII when the military was doing some ballistic tests. Shooting M1 Garands (.30-06) at fairly close ranges, around 25 yards, they discovered that the bullets would keyhole. However, at ranges beyond that they would make a neat hole.
Second, do you know what the muzzle velocity of your .45-70 load is?
If the bullet is being launched in excess of, roughly, 1088 ft/sec (mach-1) there is a standing shock wave that forms just behind the bullet. However, as the bullet slows and passes back through mach-1, the shock wave catches up to the bullet base and gives it a "kick in the pants". This can also cause the bullet to keyhole.
I saw this last phenomena a few years ago when I was shooting my AR-15 in NRA Service Rifle competition. At 200 and 300 yards my bullets would pass through the targets leaving a little round hole. But, depend on weather conditions (temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity), at 600 yards the bullets were keyholing. Also the guys in the pits pulling and scoring the targets would not hear the "crack" of the bullet passing overhead as a signal to pull and score the target. What was happening was that my loads were not driving the heavy bullets I was shooting fast enough to keep them above mach-1 all the way out to 600 yards.
First, did you try it at longer range than 50 yards?
There is a "wobble" that occurs with bullets after they leave the muzzle. What happens is that, when the bullet is moving down the bore of the rifle, it is rotating around its "center of form". However, once free of the muzzle, the bullet transitions into a spin around its "center of mass". The two centers NEVER coincide. As the bullet makes the transition it wobbles until it fully makes the transition from "center of form" to "center of mass".
This was discovered around the end of WWII when the military was doing some ballistic tests. Shooting M1 Garands (.30-06) at fairly close ranges, around 25 yards, they discovered that the bullets would keyhole. However, at ranges beyond that they would make a neat hole.
Second, do you know what the muzzle velocity of your .45-70 load is?
If the bullet is being launched in excess of, roughly, 1088 ft/sec (mach-1) there is a standing shock wave that forms just behind the bullet. However, as the bullet slows and passes back through mach-1, the shock wave catches up to the bullet base and gives it a "kick in the pants". This can also cause the bullet to keyhole.
I saw this last phenomena a few years ago when I was shooting my AR-15 in NRA Service Rifle competition. At 200 and 300 yards my bullets would pass through the targets leaving a little round hole. But, depend on weather conditions (temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity), at 600 yards the bullets were keyholing. Also the guys in the pits pulling and scoring the targets would not hear the "crack" of the bullet passing overhead as a signal to pull and score the target. What was happening was that my loads were not driving the heavy bullets I was shooting fast enough to keep them above mach-1 all the way out to 600 yards.
Busyhands94
Member
I had no knowledge of bullets behaving like this at all, very interesting indeed!
TPELLE is correct that bullets (can) better stabilize as time increases and yaw/precession/wobble settle out.
Here is a classic video demonstrating same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY&feature=player_embedded
It's the reason that a 2" group at 100 (2 MOA) might (theoretically) expand to only a 3" group (1½ MOA) at 200, and 5" (1¼ MOA) at 400.
While skidding/yawwing might be recoverable, a bullet will never recover from a true tumbling "keyhole" (and I've had many an experience where I could actually count the grease grooves.)
Here is a classic video demonstrating same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY&feature=player_embedded
It's the reason that a 2" group at 100 (2 MOA) might (theoretically) expand to only a 3" group (1½ MOA) at 200, and 5" (1¼ MOA) at 400.
While skidding/yawwing might be recoverable, a bullet will never recover from a true tumbling "keyhole" (and I've had many an experience where I could actually count the grease grooves.)
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