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First day of school....wow

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by wannabeagunsmith, Sep 4, 2013.

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  1. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Wow, we've got a bully professor haranguing his students and driving one out of his classes, and all some of you guys want to discuss is a felon's gun rights.


    Hey look over there! Cheerleaders!



    :rolleyes:
     
  2. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Here in GA, having a pocket knife with a 2.01" long blade in your car when you park at a stadium for a college football game is a felony.

    How many people do you think know that?

    Do you think that's reasonable?

    Students have been charged with a felony for having a piddly little pocket knife in their car in the parking lot
     
  3. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Yeah, no kidding, right? Completely unreasonable.



    Look over there, more cheerleaders!
     
  4. Inebriated

    Inebriated Member

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    Well it's a good thing you're here then. Two posts complaining about it are SURE to get everyone back on track. :scrutiny:
     
  5. A Patriot

    A Patriot Member

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    CWA = Confiscate Weapons Automatically
     
  6. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    I doubt it.


    A year after I got out of the Corps I went off to my first year of real college. Not night classes, not satellite classes at my duty station. An honest to goodness college, just like a kid right out of high school.

    That first semester I took a core Lit class, and the professor was this NPR clone, who dressed like, spoke like, taught like, and ruled his classes like the haughty NPR personalities he fancied himself as. We had a disagreement over a simple topic, and in typical fashion, rather than counter my position in front of the class he contemptuously dismissed me by declaring an "ignorant grunt wouldn't know anything of the world as my job was to either shoot it or blow it up," and moved on as if I was no longer there.


    But I was. I slowly, quietly, confidently stood up, donned my bike jacket, and walked out mid-conversation. And I made a point of using the exit nearest him, so I could march my ass out right in between him and his audience.

    And I rode my bike right to his office, parked out front, sat down, and waited for him.

    When he showed up, he saw me and began trembling, thinking I was going to assault him. I told him I wanted an apology. "Well OK, I'm sorry if . . ." He began. "No, not here," I said, "when the next class begins, first order of business. You were wrong, you insulted me in front of your class. And I expect your apology to be delivered before the class also."

    I turned around, hopped on my bike, and left.


    He began the next class with this mealy-mouthed, halfhearted apology, claiming I was unreasonably offended. And in that moment every last student, even those who liked his NPR style, saw him for the jerk he was. He lost the respect he craved, and although I could have scored points arguing the topic, I won by taking away his power and influence when I gave him the chance to act like the elitist bully he was. From that day on, no one respected anything he said.


    You can play checkers and win an argument, or you can play chess and defeat your adversary in the long game. This was a freshman class, so he lost his influence over those kids for the four years they were there.
     
  7. zorro45

    zorro45 Member

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    So I guess you did learn something in the Corps besides shooting people and blowing them up! Well done.
     
  8. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!

    I could really sinnk my teeth into such a class! I take it that, since you speak of this as an elective class (since you dropped it), that it's a college level class and not high school?

    Man, whenever I get around to taking some more college courses I've just GOT to sign myself up for something like this! That and philosophy courses...boy could I have some fun with these!

    I'm the kind of guy who is straight forward, and if I'm in school, especially one where I'm paying for all the classes, I expect to receive my training/education as a straight-up event in accordance with the expected curriculum. Deviations are expected and acceptable if they are in compliance with the goal of the class. But slinging personal bovine fertilizer is NOT acceptable to me.

    And I'll have absolutely no problems either challenging it or calling the individual to the carpet on his responsibilities over the issue. And the absolute LAST thing any such person will want to do to me is yell at me over it, most especially in a public forum.

    That said, you have a valid perspective too, which is essentially that this guy (and his class) is a waste of your time and therefore not worth any further effort on your part. And that's perfectly acceptable, too.


    Plenty of examples of "mob voters" can be cited on both sides of the fence. For instance, I'd like to know his opinion on, say, union strike tactics and enforced union membership rules and dues. If ever there was an area where "mob voters" and violence (and extortion) could be linked together, this would be it.

    Anyway, it would be quite difficult to battle this guy on his own terms, by which I mean to challenge him directly on any given topic. It's likely to fail for two important reasons (not counting the fact that he's the instructor and controls the curriculum):

    1. He'll already have a defense against most anything you'll bring up, valid or not.

    2. He'll take you off into a tangent, distracting you from any effective debate you may have.


    Therefore, the best way to go toe-to-toe with this guy is to use his own tactics against him...that is, to tangentally attack his own suppositions using the educational topic he's putting forth.

    For example, consider the tactic you mentioned:

    "Mob voter" (presumably a bad or vindictive thing) illustrated by the example of the NRA. The NRA is placed in a bad light by a set example, thereby linking "mob voter" to "NRA" to "bad thing" to "you're a bad person if you associate with the NRA because you're part of the mob voters".

    You can present your own example of "mob voter" by illustrating an example using "unions". And by "unions" you can also associate "tenured professors", if you wish. Then you place said union in a bad light by setting forth a specific example, thereby linking "mob voter" to "union" to "tenured professors" to "bad thing" to "you're a bad person if you associate with tenured professors because you're part of the mob voters".


    Doing this does a couple things for you:

    1. It keeps you from having to defend yourself against his own statements.

    2. It tosses examples of his own philosophy back in his own face which publically demonstrates that his philosophy isn't a one way street AND it puts the onus of defense back in his lap. And the real beauty of this is that he cannot defend against your example without also tearing down the suppositions of his OWN example.

    In effect, you'll be using his own efforts to tear down his own brash statements.

    :evil:

    Remember...you can't mount an effective direct defense against him in a classroom environment because he controls the environment and he sets the agenda. All he has to do to shut you down is to call an end to your defense tactics in the name of continuing the class, if nothing else.

    So you have to use his OWN training topics against him in what amounts to a verbal Judo maneuver, to use his own tactics against him. After all, you're discussing his curriculum in the classroom, not the NRA...right?

    :evil:

    But don't yell...and do NOT accept being yelled at.

    (All that said...I'm quite a bit older now, and set in my own ways by training, experience, and pure cussedness. I didn't get to be a Chief in the Navy because of my own naive teen and college days. I got there because I grew up in the years following.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  9. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Chief, as much as a Marine grunt can respect a Chief, I say this with the same.

    You are at a disadvantage arguing in a college class simply by virtue of being a student in a college class.

    The professor controls the class. He controls the discussion. He has respect already by virtue of the fact he's the professor. He gives the exams, he decides when discussions begin and end. You can't win a discussion with a bully on his terms.


    However, those college professors who choose to be bullies rather than teachers love one thing - the respect, admiration, and influence they have over their students. It's a weakness open for a student to exploit. The thing about college students is they like underdogs, and don't like people who abuse their power.

    You can spend your time playing a game where they hold all the trump cards, and score points in a game where points don't matter. Or you can shuffle the deck, play a different game, and show them to their class as the bullies they are. Once you do that, they lose credibility and influence, not just in that night, or that class, but in every class his students take under him the rest of the time they're there.

    Now I've come across many professors who truly were educators, and I truly enjoyed our discussions and grew from them, even when we had fundamental disagreements.

    But the bullies I ran across got different treatment, and I am not ashamed to say I got kicked out of college classes in the process. When that happened I had many students track me down and tell me how they hated the professor once they saw his true colors. Undermining a bully professor's influence has a longer-lasting impact than scoring points in a game you can't win.
     
  10. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    I agree, BullfrogKen. This is why I acknowledged that the professor controls the environment and the curriculum. It's also why I recommended the tactics I did, in this case. They have the advantage of pointing out fallacies in the professor's arguments without having to directly challenge his previous assertions in his examples. Disputing yours thus has the effect of undermining his own foundation. Once his logic is called into question, then his credibility takes a hit.

    However, even the tactics I recommended fail if the professor refuses to allow them to be brought into play, as you said.

    And that's fine...because there are more ways to skin a cat than this, as you so eloquently pointed out in post 55. I'm absolutely not intimidated by people who bully, and I'm quite happy to point out to the administration in a case like this that I'm perfectly willing to withdraw my money from their program and spend it elsewhere. This might be pocket change to them, but they really don't like to have money taken out of their pockets after it's already been given to them.

    Shoot, the OP had another alternative, which was simply not to engage at all. Choose your battles wisely, as it were.


    I, too, have had a few educators, in and out of formal education settings, wherein discussions were truly founts of knowledge and enlightenment, even when there were fundamental disagreements. This was, of course, because we chose to respect our differences and acted accordingly. What a joy those people were to learn under!


    I suspect that you and I are of a similar cut, in that we often rise to the challenge that such people pose; and we like to do it in effective ways which they don't expect. I know I smile inside as soon as someone like that does something to raise my hackles, because it now becomes entertainment for me. You and I have a great deal of respect for those in authority, if only because of our backgrounds. However, positional authority only goes so far...that respect has to be earned every day.

    I've known a few Gunny's in my time, and they all had my respect not only because they wore the uniform, but because they were "The Gunny"...and the Gunny earns his respect each and every day because that's part of who he is.

    A professor likewise automatically has my respect...but he has to EARN that continuing respect. Act unprofessionally and dishonorably and that respect goes away.


    And, speaking of the respect between the Marines and the Navy...that reminds me that I need to pack up that Navy flag I bought a while back in my trunk so I don't forget it the next time I visit my brother who served in the Marines. He just put up his flag pole on the property he bought not long ago and Old Glory and the Marine Corps flag proudly tops it each and every day. Next visit will mysteriously see the Navy flag right below Old Glory...

    ;)
     
  11. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

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    Ken is right. You're not there to argue with profs. You're there to score grades so you can get into grad school or get that job you wanted.

    I used a different writing style for every prof because each one thought they knew how to write. Give them what they think is correct in exchange for grades. It's good practice for other situations in life where you put aside your ego to get what you need.

    Remember that profs are human, sometimes too human.
     
  12. MattShlock

    MattShlock Member

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    Warp, please stop going off topic and picking odd fights. In the mean time, use the search function for pedaphiles in your area and consider moving your kids into the school across the street from them...
     
  13. Warp

    Warp Member

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    The topic was already there. Yes, I responded to an off-topic discussion, but I'm not the one who brought it there.

    So, you want to make the topic pedophiles now? Nothing off topic or odd about that...
     
  14. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    Hi Chief,

    In general, tenured profs are like rainstorms, tornadoes and killing frosts, annoying but survivable. It appeared to me that the further from real life, the more ... uh... challenging the professor became. I had one history prof that was among other things a Holocaust denier that claimed FDR didn't go far enough "socializing" the country. But as an engineering prof pointed out to me I only had to put up with one semester but he could easily ruin my GPA. While I survived the class Dad's work on teaching me to hold my temper was truly and sorely tested.

    One gentleman, brought his grandfather to audit the class during a review then started asking questions on Auschwitz. Halfway through the old gentleman stood up and quietly called the prof grossly misinformed, walked to the podium and pulled up his sleeve to show his tattoo. Needless to say the situation went downhill from there. Other than raise the morale of the students the confrontation did little good.

    I suppose college should be designed to present a number of different views and teach the discipline to tolerate them. Some are more challenging than others.
     
  15. Torian

    Torian Member

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    I can't be too hard on you for not directly challenging your professor. I've had to deal with this in the past, and these same instructors can make you a target when you speak, ultimately affecting your grade in the class. It is really ridiculous and unfortunate that many of our educators today want to push propaganda instead of teaching the facts.

    Next time record his rant with your cell phone and post it on youtube. Educators that abuse their positions of authority to influence students like this should be exposed. That tends to work pretty well these days.

    If this guy is still acting like a bully in class, he doesn't deserve the opportunity for a dignified response from you. If he is tenured...then it is really unfortunate...because the school is likely to do nothing at all unless your potential youtube clip gets more attention then they'd like.
     
  16. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Bah. I worked a full time job for all but those 2 semesters I pretended to be a traditional college student. As a fan of economics, I was fond of saying "Anything more than a C is an over-allocation of resources."


    GPA? None of my employers have ever asked or cared about my GPA. Perhaps if I had my sights set on higher education I would have cared more. I focused on learning the material, not doing well on the exams. In fact, if I had a lot happening at the office it wasn't uncommon for me to tell a professor, "I'm running an A, and all we have left is the final. You're not going to be offended if I don't show up to take it, will you?"
     
  17. Frosty Dave

    Frosty Dave Member

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    No apology necessary, you deserve applause. You took an appropriate action. Many of us won't patronize businesses with "No guns" signs; you refused to support a "No guns" instructor.

    There is an economic impact to a high school or college when students won't take elective classes. How many other students in that class felt the same as you, but will sit through the class and parrot back what teach wants to hear on exams? If enough of them followed your example and dropped the class, eventually the administration would find someone more suitable for a current affairs class.

    The instructor is simply not doing his job. He should be introducing topics by summarizing the pros and cons to an issue, by suggesting historical and current sources to read and listen to, and in doing so provide an environment that encourages an open and informed peer-to-peer discussion. Lecturing the class on "how things are" is OK in chemistry, it's not OK in current affairs.

    Lastly, you took appropriate action when you shared your experience here on the forum. The ~1700 views of this thread so far include some people who will learn from what happened to you and apply it to their lives.

    Today, you may not think yourself as such because you dropped the class, but you are a gun rights activist.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  18. Torian

    Torian Member

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    Frosty is right on. It's not your job to critique instructors on how they are failing to fulfill the professional requirements of their position. That is the job of the employer...or school in this case.

    The Dean of the department he resides in might be a good start IF they are willing to give you the time of today.
     
  19. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    At the time I had dreams of an advanced degree and GPA was a big deal to me. After a certain person tripped over me I put things into perspective. Changed my major started making plans for the future and never looked back.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  20. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    GPA DOES matter to an extent, and a lot of that depends at what point in your life you're in. As a young student, it means much more because you don't have much else to show a prospective employer in terms of credentials. I remember, because I went to college myself before I joined the Navy.

    But for people like myself and BullfrogKen, it's another matter entirely at this point in our lives. We have far more lattitude, because we're NOT naive, inexperienced people with no real-world experience to speak of. We're seasoned adults, already well established in our careers and standing on our own two feet financially. Such people have very little hold over people like us. (And probably people like you, at this point in your own life.)

    This is one reason why I said earlier that the OP's response was a perfectly acceptable one. Pick your battles, as it were, because you can't win them all and therefore shouldn't try to win them all. Sometimes keeping one's mouth shut and going with the flow is the right answer, too.


    As for wannabeagunsmith's comment "I want to apologize I honestly feel like crap for letting him get away with all that", don't apologize and quit worrying about it. You are not obligated to take on every yahoo on any given topic, and there is absolutely no dishonor in taking the path you did. You're a student with your own goals and the college is your means to acheive them. Not letting someone such as him distract you or put any road blocks in your path is admirable.

    :)
     
  21. wannabeagunsmith

    wannabeagunsmith Member

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    thanks guys. I wish I could reply to everyone's comments but there are so many! haha. Ken, that story made my day. Awesome to say the least. Oh, I am a high school student for those who asked! I have a hard time listening to lies all day and wanting to shout them down so yeah that is partly why I dropped the class. And thank you to everyone for reassuring me!
     
  22. Fremmer

    Fremmer Member

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    You shouldn't have dropped that class, IMHO.
    The professor presented an idea in a certain manner for that type of class. It doesn't matter if his proposition is wrong, right, or in between. He's trying to challenge you intellectually, not brainwash you. But if you only want exposure to your beliefs and like-minded people, that's up to you. You won't learn as much - it's not about which opinion is correct, it's about learning to analyze and argue from different perspectives.

    And people - like bosses, customers, investors, and others in the business world - are a lot tougher and meaner than that professor. No offense, but you gotta place differences in opinion aside when it benefits your interests. Like learning that from class.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  23. Fryerpower

    Fryerpower Member

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    GPA also matters when it is one of the qualifiers for continuing your scholarships.
     
  24. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    They will tell you nobody is coming for your guns as they pass legislation limiting you all the way down to SxS shotguns, along the way implementing more and more tedius and difficult requirements to still own what remains legal.
    While simultanesouly reducing cultural acceptance of self defense, as has been shown in Commonwealth locations that once had strong self defense cultures and where you can now go to prison for defending your own home during a home invasion or not limiting your use of force to the level of the home invader.

    It is true that all political sides use scare tactics to encourage participation. But in the case of firearms they really are coming for your guns.
    In several states the antis continue a march of banning and restrictions, new licensing schemes and requirements and increasing hoops and costs.
    Prior to Heller some locations were requiring storage of what guns they even allowed to be owned not just unloaded but actually disassembled as well.
     
  25. Sol

    Sol Member

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    Well you know what they call a doctor that graduated first in their class?
    Do you know what they call a doctor that graduated last in their class?

    A doctor.
     
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