First rifle for Appleseed type training

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nutty7462

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I was reading the "The article that got a liberal interested in RKBA" post and began to look into the Appleseed project and I'm thinking that I would like to get into this (and I know of a couple of friends that probably will want to as well), but I can't afford much of a rifle now. The only long gun I have is an AK.

What are some inexpensive options for a first rifle for this situation? Are the mosin nagent rifles sold by aimsurplus sufficient? I may be able to afford an SKS if it is a lot better.

Please educate me. I'm new to long guns and really would like to learn more.
 
I did the Appleseed over the summer.

Hands down, by far the best gun for this class is a Ruger 10/22 with the TechSights. Won't cost a wad of cash and you won't be wasting 300+ rounds of expensive 30 caliber on paper.

I took my Saiga and CZ carbine to the class. Most shooting is done sitting or prone at 25 yard targets, mostly sighting in the first day on 1" squares. Do *not* bring your AK or SKS, trust me. The sights just aren't good enough. You need peeps. The SKS can be fitted with TechSights, but you're still wasting all that money on ammo.

Also be sure to sight in your rifle BEFORE taking the class. We had one guy with $2000 worth of equipment and not only didn't know how to use it, but the $800 ACOS he was using was not even on paper.

Any more questions, just PM me.
 
TexasRifleman, you're a fund of good information. I just took a look at that link and at the Tech Sights page beyond it, and I think I'm going to investigate them. Never heard of them before. Thank you.

Have you used or installed them yourself?
 
I did an Appleseed in November. I learned a lot about shooting, as well as learned that I really stink as a rifleman.

Don't bring a Mosin-Nagant unless you are a glutton for punishment. You will turn your shoulder into meat quickly. An Appleseed shoot is ~200 rounds per day, and if you are not familiar with the Mosin-Nagant and 7.62x54R cartridge, let me just tell you that you don't want to do that to yourself. The recoil (especially from the M44) is very...shall we say...signifigant... Additionally, you really need a semi-auto with a 10-round magazine capacity for most courses of fire. You won't finish most courses of fire (time limit) unless you hold the Guinness record for cycling/reloading a Mosin-Nagant.

I used a Yugo SKS (M59/66). That was a mistake. It didn't fit me well, is rather heavy, and had poor sights and a poor trigger--I didn't realize really how bad until I was trying to shoot well with it. That said, it would be a better choice than a Mosin-Nagant. Also, it may work better for you than for me, and it definitely isn't a wasted purchase.

If you shoot your AK well, bring it. You probably won't do the best with it, but it will be OK (this is a learning exercise now, not a competition). One of the kids in my group (15-year-oldish) shot rifleman qualification with an AK. The instructors were very surprised, but this illustrates that it is possible.

I agree with the 10/22 recommendation. I have not used Tech sights, but they come highly recommended by all I have heard from. This will be the most cost-effective platform you can bring. They're accurate and no more than $40 (for the "good match-grade stuff") .22 ammo will do you for the weekend. Compare to $120 of cheap ammo for a .30 cal. Remember, you will go through about 400 rounds in the weekend. You could put the saved $80 (or more) toward the 10/22.

I plan on going again in 2008. However, this time I'm bringing an AR15 with a peep sight. I just want the "realism" of a larger cartridge and am willing to pay the extra expense for ammo.

Tips:
You need a semi-auto with at least 10-round magazine capacity. This is what the courses of fire are designed for. Many are 10-round strings or fire 2 rounds/magazine swap/fire 8 rounds, and are timed (actually time-limited). This really stinks with stripper clips or 8-round en-blocs (M1 Garand). I frequently didn't finish courses of fire trying to load the SKS from stripper clips. Actually, a Garand is a good choice (good sights, good trigger) IF you can reload it like a madman. As I said before, unless you are the speed demon of bolt-action, you will not finish most courses of fire with a bolt gun, as well as have to regain your firing position after cycling the bolt.

Bring good ground cover, like a carpet remnant about 2x your width.

Bring a military-style sling. This is a MUST. You can get a surplus Garand/M14 sling from a gun show for $10 or less that will fit most rifles. You can probably order them cheaply on the Internet as well. "Hunting" style slings are no good for this.

Bring at least 4 (empty) magazines, the more the merrier. You want to spend your designated prep time getting into position and dry-firing on target, not loading your magazine.

Bring some bottled water and food/snacks.

Bring sunglasses (prescription if you need them). It was BRIGHT in the morning/early afternoon. Also a hat, or you will get sunburn.

Bring your own staple gun and staples. Light duty is fine.

Unless you are used to shooting 200 rounds from the prone position daily, BRING ELBOW PADS--the non-slip baseball type without the plastic cap. If you don't your elbows will be bloody on the first day and intolerable by the second.

Practice prone position, and take a few dry-fire shots from it daily for about a month before the shoot. This will REALLY help you out.
 
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Have you used or installed them yourself?

I only know what is in that thread. I found it a while back when researching the Appleseed stuff. I have been thinking about building one of those 10/22's but that's about all.
 
Mojo summed it up really well, and I'd like to add you won't need elbow pads if you bring an inflatable camping mat. Works great.

Ditto on the GI sling, absolutely a must.
 
I bought a 10/22 carbine from walmart last month. I think I'll look into doing those mods and taking the class if I can find the time this year.
 
An Appleseed Shoot is the way to learn to shoot a rifle.
A 10/22 will teach you most of what you need to know.
Tech sights are easy to install but be sure to use a locking compound on the rear sight mounting screws.
If you use a .30 cal. rifle,you need elbow pads!!!!
I attended the Rifleman's Boot Camp #1, shooting an M14A, using carpet for a mat and rubbed my elbows raw the first day. Dumb me had the pads but didn't use them because I had never needed them before. I had never fired that many rds. in one day before this.
A friend who was with me wore a Shooting Jacket and he had raw elbows as well. We had to go buy him elbow pads.
At the first Toccoa, Ga. Appleseed, I carried my son and grandson to attend.
We all used elbow pads. I shot the M14A, my son shot an AR and my grandson shot a 10/22 and an AR. Not one raw elbow.
Shooting that many rds. a day can cause pain even if you shoot a .22.
But back to the question of what rifle.
BRING WHAT YOU HAVE AND LEARN TO USE IT!!!!!!!
That is what Appleseed is all about.
 
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I did an Appleseed shoot last year. Was a great experience and I recommend it to everyone. That being said...I brought my Saiga, my Armory USA AK and my Ruger 10/22 to the class. My Saiga wasn't sighted in completely and after the first hour, I dumped it and grabbed the AK. Equipped with a finger-groove pistol grip, orange front sight and a rear peep sight, my AK was the most accurate one on the line (build quality helped there too) but still wasn't enough to earn me a Rifleman patch. Next day, I grabbed the 10/22 and earned rifleman with the first series of targets. I shot that little carbine all day.

Bring whatever rifle you shoot best.
Bring a back-up rifle.
Water and snacks are a must.
Go to Home Depot and buy a chunk of carpet 3 feet wide and at least 6 feet long. Seems like more than you need but it'll keep your mags and ammo out of the dirt and all of your body.
Bring elbow and knee pads, the most comfortable one you can find. My "elbow" pads are actually kids soccer knee pads with no hard cup in them. I didn't bring a pair and my elbows were bloody by the end of day one and I was shopping for them at the local Wal-Mart that night.
Practice getting into prone position every day, a few times a day for weeks in advance. Trust me on that one, sounds strange but you'll understand later.
Best position on the shooting line is left end, no brass flying at you.
Have fun.
 
Bring a back-up rifle.

+1. I should have mentioned that on my list...

You very well may need it, or you can lend it to somebody else that does.

One of the guys at my shoot had brought a Garand that he had just bought, and found out that it had a messed-up sear that tended to frequently double or triple. He didn't have a spare rifle, so somebody else was nice enough to lend him his spare Garand.
 
10/22 with upgraded sights, hougue overmolded stock and USGIweb sling - and a case of whatever .22 ammo it likes

followed by M1 Garand from CMP

YMMV
 
Best described here:

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

Welcome to the Appleseed Project

What the RWVA (Revolutionary War Veterans Association) is all about:
The Appleseed Program is designed to take you from being a simple rifle owner to being a true rifleman. All throughout American history, the rifleman has been defined as a marksman capable of hitting a man-sized target from 500 yards away — no ifs, ands or buts about it. This 500-yard range is traditionally known as "the rifleman's quarter-mile;" a rifleman can hit just about any target he can see. This skill was particulary evident in the birth of our country, and was the difference in winning the Revolutionary War.
 
The Tech-Sights are easy to install. Their instructions are well written.

The toughest thing is drifting the original front sight out of the dove tail.

Good posts from many who have been there, thanks for the reviews and come on back in 2008, bring lots of friends;)

See ya in 08
 
I shot Sharpshooter (level below Rifleman) with a SAR 2 with factory commie sights at my first Appleseed this last summer. Last I heard only two guys have ever shot Rifleman with an AK, I hope to be the Third in the nation to do it, but that will be on day two, day one I will probably be shooting my tech sighted 10/22. My buddy that shot sharpshooter with his SAR 2 on the same day is determined to make Rifleman with his 03A3. So two things about that: The 5.45 round helps with accuracy in an AK, since only a handfull of guys have ever shot Rifleman with an SKS, which is said to be inherrantly more accurate than an AK, I would say the 7.62x39 round is not the best choice for a first time Appleseed. And that is really the second thing, for a first time, you dont want to be fighting against your self in the learning curve. There is plenty to learn about shooting, no need to have your equipment holding you back. A 10/22 with Tech sights, a AR, or an M1a really lend themselves best to the program in regards to teh targets and how the strings of shots are setup. Anything can be used to shoot the program though. The gun you have is better than the gun you dont, come Appleseed time.

-Sefus
 
An AR to shoot along with a .22LR Conversion kit is a perfect set-up to use if your .22 kit will shoot at least a 4 MOA group at 25M.
Use the kit for the first day and maybe 1/2 the second day and then finish off with the 5.56.
I have a kit that shoots to the same elevation at 25M as the 5.56 in two of my AR's but 4-6 MOA right depending on the rifle. I have a mark on my windage knobs where the .22 LR is zeroed and all I have to do it move the knob.
My Colt SP1 will shoot the .22's less than 3 MOA but my Bushmaster Carbine shoots 4-5 MOA. These groups are with Fed. Bulk Packs. I have not got around to trying different ammo yet. I may be able to improve these groups with different ammo.
 
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