Appleseed Project rifle - opinions wanted

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Bruenor

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I've been reading recently about the Appleseed Project. I first heard about it here about two weeks ago, and then saw a booth at a gun show last week. I'm fairly new to shooting, so it's not really a surprise to me that I haven't heard about it earlier.

I'd love to go to one of these events, but the only thing that I have is my Nagants (91/30 and a M44). Would this be suitable for an Appleseed shoot?
 
Nagant? Heck no. Ever fired one prone? It sits right on your collar bone. Plus bolt actions are just not good for the stuff you'll be doing.

Go get a basic 10/22, put TechSights on it, get 4-10rd mags and buy a brick of 22. Be sure to get a genuine 'GI sling', otherwise you'll be left out in the cold trying to figure out what the heck they're trying to teach with proper sling use.
 
Chris in VA beat me to it. He* sums up the other THR threads on this matter quite accurately. This event uses a ton of ammo - and a ton of your shoulder's goodwill. No reason to beat yourself up. On the other hand, no reason not to bring two rifles, and pound a few big .30-caliber warhorse-killers down the range just to spice things up!

The shot strings are fast, so semi-auto are favored. My first idea was, get an AR-15 with at .22 rimfire upper. Not quite as cheap as a Ruger 10/22 though. (As far as other manufacturers' .22 autoloaders, no one ever mentions them, but I doubt they're that bad; a Savage/Marlin/Remington owner can chime in on quality questions. It's mainly just that the Ruger is the absolute KING of aftermarket accessories, like sights, swivels, stocks, etc.)

* an assumption on my part. If "Chris" is short for "Christine", my apologies!
 
I have not yet been to an Appleseed shoot. Non in New Mexico(YET). But based on what reading I have done, a .22LR would be as good as any rifle. They shoot the AQT target at 25M. You don't NEED a powder hog with a 600M reach. They are also focusing on the FUNDAMENTALS for rifle marksmanship and a .22 is great for that.

Here is a suggestion; Check out the Appleseed web page.(if you haven't already done so.) and join the RWVA. They have a forum there as well and there is TONS of info specific the Appleseed shooting available.
 
It really depends on what you want to do. You could set up a scoped semi-auto .22lr and assuming you are a halfway decent shot you could score rifleman without too much trouble. Or you could shoot your Mosin Nagant and probably fall well short of that, but still learn a lot about shooting and improve your marksmanship a lot.

I did an Appleseed last March and I used both a PSL, (using the iron sights), and an M39, (Finnish Mosin Nagant), and my shoulder survived. I didn't score rifleman, but I came close a couple of times. My best was 202 with the PSL, but I actually preferred the M39. I just didn't try shooting it until the very end when I was worn out and my aim had gone to hell.

The bolt action will slow you down, the recoil of the Mosin Nagant will slow you down and the iron sights will slow you down. Later on I tried a few AQT's on my own with a scoped 10/22 and I was shocked at how much easier it was. If you use a Mosin Nagant, you definitely want to bring stripper clips!
 
I've seen AKs and SKS in pics from Appleseed shoots. AK might be a little hard to get behind prone unless you have long enough arms. 20 round mags would cure that for most shooters.
 
What if you had a ComBloc stock?
Click to expand...
Not sure on that one. Got a picture? Or are we talking about the standard military set up as opposed the the "AWB" thumb hole stock? I can get prone behind an AK with a 30, or even 40 round magazine. But I know some smaller statured folks who can't quite do so. They wind up shooting over the berm.
 
I'm talking about the Warsaw length stock, not the NATO-length.
Oh, you're talking height. No wonder the mag comment made zero sense to me.
Yeah, tanker mags help there.
 
An AK is fine, but I agree with the 20rd magazine statement. 80% of the Appleseed course of fire is from the prone position, and for most people a 30rd AK mag sticks out too far to get into prone.

You don't need a race gun. You'll see people at Appleseed with AKs, SKSes, M1 Garands, M1As, Winchester 94s, Remington 750s, CETMEs, L1A1s, Marlin 60s, Ruger 10/22s, S.M.L.E.s, AR-15s... You get the picture... I did my first Appleseed with an SKS. The rifle was much better than I am.

You will shoot approximately 420 rounds over 1 and 1/2 days. Frankly, I wouldn't want to do that with a Mosin Nagant. However, YMMV. Some people like pain.

As others have said, the courses of fire are time-limited and tailored to 10-round semi-autos. Unless you are very adept at working a bolt action, you will probably not complete many of the courses of fire with a bolt gun. That's fine, but don't bring a bolt action if you are easily frustrated or discouraged. If you bring an SKS (or anything stripper fed), be sure to bring some stripper clips. "Peep" style rear sights, rather than notch-style rear sights, are more desirable as well.

You can use a scope if you like, but the course is intended to teach you to shoot a military-style rifle accurately. You will be doing yourself a disservice if you use a scope, that is unless you have a handicap that necessitates it. Don't worry if you can't group on a dime with iron sights--Appleseed is meant for you! You will improve dramatically.

My "dream" Appleseed rifle: Ruger 10/22 with Tech sights--Or an M1A if you have the megabucks to spend.

Whatever rifle you bring, be sure to bring a sling--It's a necessity for Appleseed.
 
USGI web slings will fit all the AKs I've seen, but a GI sling isn't the only option. The important thing is that the sling holds its tension and doesn't slip or stretch. A narrow sling will cut into your arm after a while, but you can pad your shooting jacket/shirt to compensate.
 
For those of you who have never been to one, here's what to expect.

The main thrust of an Appleseed is to teach you to shoot "expert" on a simulated version of the old army rifle qualification test. In the real test you would shoot 10 shots off hand at 100m, 10 shots sitting at 200m starting from the standing with a mag change, 10 shots prone at 300m starting from the standing with a mag change and finally 10 shots prone at 400m. You are timed and if I remember right you have 2 min, 90 sec, 90 sec and 2 min for each stage. The silhouettes you shoot at are scored 3, 4 and 5 depending on where you hit them and the final round at 400m counts double, so you have a total of 250 possible. 210+ qualifies you as rifleman.

Now, since shooting out to 400m is time consuming and not all ranges are set up for it, Appleseed instead scales down the targets and you shoot at 25m. That way you can do a lot more shooting and use more affordable training weapons like rimfires. Does this have it's downsides? Yes, but you're able to do so much more shooting that it makes up for it.

When you get there they'll give you a quick test called shoot the redcoats. Most people do poorly on it. They'll then teach you some basics of shooting, instruct you in the different positions and have you practice shooting AQT's. During breaks they'll have lectures about the American Revolution, particularly the details of April 19, 1775.

It's a very worthwhile class.

You can shoot whatever you bring, but some rifles are clearly better suited to it than others. I personally would not recommend an AK. You would do fine in the off hand portion and probably OK in the sitting, but you would have real difficulty in the prone part of it. Not because the mags are too long, but because the sights and accuracy will just make it difficult to get a good score.
 
I'd love to go to one of these events, but the only thing that I have is my Nagants (91/30 and a M44). Would this be suitable for an Appleseed shoot?
Click to expand...
They sure would work, but, as mentioned before it could get a little rough on a new shooter. You might look around for a cheap .22 with a detachable mag. But do take the mosin.

Find out more here www.Appleseedinfo.org
 
Been to a couple of Appleseeds with the first being a trend toward center
fire rifles. Due to the sky high scarcity and high prices of some ammo, there
is a swing toward rimfires. The same training at a lesser cost is the thought.
The ones that I attended were set up for 25 meters with target sizes in
proportion for that distance. If you follow the instructors teachings, you
are not in a disadvantage to qualify as a rifleman with a rimfire. The rimfire
should be magazine fed for reloads on rapid fire, but I have seen tube mags
used. Bottom line is pretty much whatever rifle or sights you use well is
allowed. Safety is the prime factor. The line is only declared cold when
magazines are removed, tube mags, the tube left pulled out), the action
open with a empty chamber indicator, and the weapon grounded:D
Some of those bolt military centerfires can be hurtful if one size fits all
doesn't fit ya in prone! Safety, position, and good shooting habits are
taught at these shoots. What you shoot, really isn't an issue. Most of
the instructors are versed in whatever you bring!:D:):)
 
You can use a scope if you like, but the course is intended to teach you to shoot a military-style rifle accurately. You will be doing yourself a disservice if you use a scope, that is unless you have a handicap that necessitates it. Don't worry if you can't group on a dime with iron sights--Appleseed is meant for you! You will improve dramatically.
Click to expand...

+1. It's really a class that's geared towards iron sights.
 
Hmmm...maybe I'll go both routes, but myself a .22, and take the Nagants.
 
I would reccomend getting involved with Hi-Power Service Rifle shooting instead.
 
I would reccomend getting involved with Hi-Power Service Rifle shooting instead.
Click to expand...
Do Appleseed first, learn to shoot, THEN get into Service Rifle. The initial investment for Service Rifle is much higher than Appleseed. "Walk before you run".
 
If you want to shoot .22's at short distances the NRA smallbore rifle @ 50ft program is a great way to learn.

There is just to much "hype" surrounding a particular dog for me.
Or the dogs owner as the case may be.:scrutiny:
 
One great thing about Appleseed, is that you will get a taste of early American history that you don't get in school anymore. The tradition of the American rifleman didn't spring up out of nowhere--it's hundreds of years old. Appleseed, high power, NRA smallbore and other programs are carrying on the tradition. Appleseed has a great way of blending history and marksmanship. As it says on the web site, "When marksmanship met history, and the heritage began."
 
No doubt that Appleseeds are a great way to learn the fundamentals, right, all at once, and in one weekend.

One of the best investments one can make is in a "trainer" 22, and for an Appleseed, the 10/22 with Tech-Sights, USGI web sling and a couple of other little goodies are tough to beat.

That said, if you don't/can't make that investment, you will find that you will still learn the fundamentals.

The Instructors at Appleseeds are all Volunteer, they have no other goals than to teach marksmanship and American Heritage. For their efforts, they get to give up time with their families, to help you learn, so you can say that they have a "vested interest" in seeing that you do learn and learn well. They are there for your benefit, not theirs (BTW, there are nearly 100 Appleseed Instructors nation wide :what:)

Some ranges offer ability to get some actual distance shooting, these are noted on the Event Information pages for each shoot. If your shoot has this, take a centerfire rifle along with your 22 trainer.

BTW. New Mexico will have two Appleseed Shoots this fall. One at the ABQ city range, the other at the Whittington Center. I can not recall the dates off the top of my head, but they will be on the web site soon. ABQ is in October, Whittington Center is a Constitution Day Appleseed and those will be on September 13-14.

There are over 105 Appleseeds planned for 2008, and that number is growing.

The following national publications have done stories on Appleseed, see for yourself what the 'hype" is about:

Chris Knox, Firearms Coalition http://www.firearmscoalition.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=147&Itemid=63

Stewart Rhoades, SWAT Magazine, Feb 2008 (this will be available on www.rwva.org soon)

Dolf Goldsmith of Small Arms Review, June 2008.

Michael Bane, Down Range TV. Radio interview, and he will be doing a TV program late 2008 or early 2009.

Again, details can be found at www.rwva.org

There is an unofficial blog that has great information on what to expect at an Appleseed Shoot. http://appleseedshoot.blogspot.com/

Feel free to PM me if you have further questions.
 
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