First SD Use In Public

[MikeNice]

This happened about three weeks ago. I wanted to post it up earlier. However I waited to get the official all clear first. I was finally told that no charges would be pressed. So, now I will discuss.

It was a Saturday afternoon at the local monster-mega-warehouse club. The parking lot was packed and the closest parking space was about ¾ of the way across the parking lot. I parked as close as possible, locked up and headed in. The walk across the asphalt ocean was uneventful.

I did my shopping and headed out to the car with a cart full of items. About half way across the parking lot a guy walked past me. He was heading in the opposite direction. He had a cell phone in his hand and looked like the typical working class guy. His clothes weren’t dirty, but they showed a little age. He hadn’t shaved, but it was still just stubble. He could have been anybody. He did not stick out of the crowd.

He walked past and I heard him let out a curse. I looked over my shoulder and he was patting his pockets. I thought, “I bet he locked his keys in the car. That sucks.” Then I just kept right on trucking. A couple of seconds later I heard him walking up behind me. I didn’t think twice. I just assumed he was going back to his car, wherever it was. Then I realized he was keeping near perfect pace beside me.

I pushed the cart over a little to create some space. I looked at him and he made eye contact. I nodded and said hi. He nodded and looked away. Then I heard him say, “hey buddy.” It wasn’t a whisper it was just slightly lower than conversational. So, I looked over to see if he was on the phone or talking to me. I looked over and he had a knife in his left hand. It was low and near his body. It was displayed just enough to make sure I noticed it. When he saw me look he said something like, “how about helping me out with a few bucks.”

Luckily he was pacing me on my left hand side. So, his body was between the knife and me. To get me he would have needed to pivot and thrust. That is probably the main thing that worked in my favor.

I practically jumped to the right and pulled the cart between us. I turned so that I was facing him and my back was towards the parked cars. Everything slowed down to a crawl. It felt like my body was moving through cold molasses. A million thoughts were pounding through my head extremely fast. I might as well have not even been thinking at all. I was just backpedaling and trying to get my bearings. Then I felt my legs bang against the bumper of a car. That is when the fight instinct took over.

I reached in to my pocket and pulled out my revolver. I brought it up and in to the ready position. My stance wasn’t worth a crap. But the gun was pointed at his chest, somewhere between his sternum and nipples. It felt like it took hours, but I know it was less than two or three seconds.

By the time the gun was on target he was just getting his hand on the cart to shove it out of the way. However, he saw the gun and froze. We stood there staring at each other. He said something I couldn’t understand, or just don’t remember. I told him, “you’ll die.” He backed up with his hands up. He kept saying pointless stuff trying to ask for mercy. Then I shouted, “go, just <deleted> go.” He dropped the knife and took off running.

I didn’t think to holster the gun. When there was a decent amount of distance between us I walked around the cart to secure the knife and call 911. Unfortunately someone saw me walking with the gun and called the cops before I did.

The first cop was there pretty quick. Fortunately, I had holstered the gun. However, I waved him down because he was just circling the parking lot. He pulled up and I guess he recognized me from the description the caller made. He hopped out of the car and kept the door between us. He had his gun out and ordered me to put my hands behind my head. Then he ordered me to get on my knees. I told him my name and said that I was a CCH permit holder. He kept me like that until a second unit arrived.

Then they approached and the second officer shoved me to the ground with his foot. He was yelling, “where’s the gun” over and over. I was shocked to say the least. I told him it was in my pocket. I also told him that I had my CCH permit in my wallet. He told me to shut up. He searched me and pulled my gun out. Then he handcuffed me and stood me up.

I was exasperated. I asked what the problem was. He asked me if I liked running around waving guns at people. I started with a curse word and then said “he was trying to rob me. What was I supposed to do?” By this time a third cop has arrived and he actually was paying attention and knows that an attempted robbery was called in shortly after the gun sighting was called in. It takes a couple minutes of them talking amongst themselves to figure out what was going on.

Unfortunately cop number two was the senior officer. He started talking about charging me with disorderly conduct, going armed to terrorize the public, and causing a public disturbance. He didn’t ask me for a description of the criminal or a statement until he had berated me for several minutes. He made sure to let me know that I could have killed “a dozen people” by “waving” my gun around. (It is a revolver with well under a dozen rounds.)

I tried to explain that I had the gun at low ready while I tried to find and secure the knife. It was evidence of the attempted robbery. I wanted them to have it just in case the robber tried to call in and report me for pulling a gun on him. He then made sure that I knew securing a crime scene was not my duty and I had no legal authority to use force to secure a crime scene. Explaining that he misunderstood me seemed pointless.

Eventually he took my statement and turned me loose. He also told me he was going to “consult” with the DA’s office about pressing charges. He told me a whole list of things I could be charged with. A second lecture on gun safety followed, then he turned me loose.

I had to go down to the police station Friday and make another statement. I also had to identify the guy that tried to rob me. It seems they caught him later that afternoon trying to break in to cars in another part of the parking lot. I don’t know why it took them three weeks to tie the events together. However, they did and I’m surprised they ever did really.

I told the cop that took my second statement what happened at the scene. I then asked if I was facing charges for my actions. He checked and said that I wasn’t. As far as he could see no complaint had been filed against me.

******

I know I went way beyond just the initial encounter. I just wanted to provide an overview of the whole process. A lot of people think about the moment they pull the gun. Hopefully people see that there is more to use of force, or the threat of force.

Any tips on handling it better? Any thing that stands out as a point for discussion?

One of the things that suprises me is my reaction time. I've pulled a gun in defense before. It was under different circumstances. I had a little more of a chance to think and prepare before acting. It wasn't so much of a suprise.

 

[mfcmb]

Sounds to me like the cops overreacted and you did as well as could be expected with the adrenaline dump.

 

[esheato]

Interesting...

Honestly, I think you did just fine.

The cops response, sadly, is about what I expected.

Glad you're no worse for wear.

 

[ObsidianOne]

Glad to hear you're safe. Sorry to hear some of the LEOs were less than understanding. Imagine how much better the world would be if people wouldn't stain their pants and think someone is a terrorist when a gun is drawn, rather than trying to evaluate the situation and think "Hey, that guy has a gun. He's pointing it at that guy with a knife, maybe he's trying to defend himself. I should call 911 and inform them that someone drew a gun on someone wielding a knife and I'm not exactly sure what is going on"; instead of some garbled rambling of "Oh sweet Jesus, this maniac in the parking lot has a gun and I think he might be Al Queda! In fact, I think I feel spleen cancer coming on, he's giving me cancer! Quick! Ready the nearest nuclear silo for launch!".
I'd file a complaint against the officers and mention that the one officer did know what he was talking about, hopefully those guys will get shipped off for some informative training and won't be slamming people down on the ground for defending themselves.

 

[mljdeckard]

Look at it this way. Self-defense encounters are pass or fail. You passed. No one got hurt, the correct guy is going to jail.

And yeah, the one cop was a jerk but at the same time, you should anticipate some rough treatment and words when they arrive on-scene. Keeping everyone involved face-down on the ground is just keeping everyone safe until they can figure out what happened.

He was correct in that you should let the evidence sit where it is. You don't want YOUR prints on the other guy's weapon. I'm guessing that they had some surveillance video that backed up your side of the story.

But it's all good. You have a real-world experience to reference when you train now.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by MikeNice: Any tips on handling it better? Any thing that stands out as a point for discussion?

Only the obvious: holster your gun quickly, and be the first to call 911.

This incident does illustrate that when the attention of witnesses is drawn to an incident, key stages of the action are very often over and done with. Self defense encounters do not occur on a sound stage with cameras rolling and an audience with its attention fixed on the action. Take a hypothetical, justifiable "good shoot" (I really do not like that term for use in discussing civilian situations) in which an armed robber who has accosted a citizen in a parking lot is shot in self defense. How likely is it that witnesses will be able to recount the incident from start to finish? It is much more likely that at least some persons nearby will hear shots and then turn to see a man with a gun and a man on the ground, and self defense shootings are so infrequent that there is no reason at all to expect most persons to realize that that may have been what had just happened. They will truthfully report that they heard shots and saw a man with a gun and a man on the ground, which gives no indication that the criminal act that just occurred was an armed robbery.

In this case, someone most probably saw you walking with the gun after the robber was long gone. That person would have every reason to assume that your constituted a threat to whomever you were near at the time, and no reason to believe otherwise.

Thanks for reporting your experience so it can serve to educate all of us.

And no, do not file a complaint against the officers (I'm sure you had no idea of doing so). They did not go about "slamming people down on the ground for defending themselves". Rather, they were dispatched to the scene in response to a 911 call and responded precisely as one would expect, "just keeping everyone safe until they can figure out what happened", as mljdeckard put it.

By the way, the fact that you are a CHL holder has everything to do with the fact that you were permitted to have the gun with you at the time, and nothing at all to do with whether you were "the good guy" or whether your actions at the time had been lawful, safe, or appropriate. Those determinations always come later, and some people seem to lose sight of that.

 

[bruzer]

Glad you are OK.
Funny how I can sit behind the computer and go through everything I will do but reality shows the aftermath of simply pulling the gun without shots can be very challenging.
Thank you for sharing your experience and once again, I am glad you are OK.
Mike

 

[68wj]

Interesting...

Honestly, I think you did just fine.

The cops response, sadly, is about what I expected.

Glad you're no worse for wear.

Concur

 

[Kleanbore]

One other thought.

This:

I wanted to post it up earlier. However I waited to get the official all clear first. I was finally told that no charges would be pressed. So, now I will discuss.

Is no doubt perfectly fine here.

We all need to realize, however, that whenever anyone has been wounded or killed, a decision by the charging authority to not file charges, or even a grand jury "no bill", is not necessarily a permanent decision, and new information could bring about its reversal.

Should we be unlucky enough be forced into a self defense situation, and lucky enough to get through it unhurt and without being charged, we should generally refrain from posting details about it afterward.

Of course, if one had been fired upon by an escaped convict and had prevailed, one might see the possibility of a little leeway on that....it is when there had been some apparent ambiguity, or when there is risk of civil liability, that one needs to exercise the most caution.

 

[Creature]

As mentioned already, your biggest mistake was not holstering your revolver.

One question, was this incident captured on the store's parking lot video surveillance?

 

[ObsidianOne]

Only the obvious: holster your gun quickly, and be the first to call 911.

This incident does illustrate that when the attention of witnesses is drawn to an incident, key stages of the action are very often over and done with. Self defense encounters do not occur on a sound stage with cameras rolling and an audience with its attention fixed on the action. Take a hypothetical, justifiable "good shoot" (I really do not like that term for use in discussing civilian situations) in which an armed robber who has accosted a citizen in a parking lot is shot in self defense. How likely is it that witnesses will be able to recount the incident from start to finish? It is much more likely that at least some persons nearby will hear shots and then turn to see a man with a gun and a man on the ground, and self defense shootings are so infrequent that there is no reason at all to expect most persons to realize that that may have been what had just happened. They will truthfully report that they heard shots and saw a man with a gun and a man on the ground, which gives no indication that the criminal act that just occurred was an armed robbery.

In this case, someone most probably saw you walking with the gun after the robber was long gone. That person would have every reason to assume that your constituted a threat to whomever you were near at the time, and no reason to believe otherwise.

Thanks for reporting your experience so it can serve to educate all of us.

And no, do not file a complaint against the officers (I'm sure you had no idea of doing so). They did not go about "slamming people down on the ground for defending themselves". Rather, they were dispatched to the scene in response to a 911 call and responded precisely as one would expect, "just keeping everyone safe until they can figure out what happened", as mljdeckard put it.

By the way, the fact that you are a CHL holder has everything to do with the fact that you were permitted to have the gun with you at the time, and nothing at all to do with whether you were "the good guy" or whether your actions at the time had been lawful, safe, or appropriate. Those determinations always come later, and some people seem to lose sight of that.

Wait, what? Pushing him to the ground with his foot and screaming at him after he had already tried to explain to the officer what happened, all the while (from what he said), he was being compliant while at gunpoint?
No, I don't think so. You don't push someone to the ground because you don't understand the situation for your safety if they are on their knees, hands behind their head, another officer is pointing a gun at them, and they've been there for some time. Especially since they don't even KNOW if there actually is a weapon.
That's a crock; it's a prime example of LEO with an ego and should not be tolerated.

 

[answerguy]

I see this was posted at 3:31am, not sleeping too well these days?

I do hope when you said "I walked around the cart to secure the knife" you didn't mean you were going to pick it up but just were going to stand near it until the police arrived.

 

[LiquidTension]

Obviously ObsidianOne responds to life threatening situations for a living

Arguing with the cops before they have secured what is to them a completely unknown scene is a bad idea. There will be time to figure out what's going on - staring down the barrel of a cop's gun is not the time. Does it suck to be handcuffed and tossed to the ground? Yes, it does. But for all the cops know they were dealing with the bad guy. Secure, then investigate - not the other way around.

I do feel that the attitude of the officers after the situation had been examined was quite poor.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by ObsidianOne: Wait, what? Pushing him to the ground with his foot and screaming at him after he had already tried to explain to the officer what happened, all the while (from what he said), he was being compliant while at gunpoint?
No, I don't think so. You don't push someone to the ground because you don't understand the situation for your safety if they are on their knees, hands behind their head, another officer is pointing a gun at them, and they've been there for some time. Especially since they don't even KNOW if there actually is a weapon.
That's a crock; it's a prime example of LEO with an ego and should not be tolerated.

You are obviously a whole lot more familiar with the training and procedures of the police department involved than I am.

Where I live, it is SOP--reviewed and approved by law enforcement professionals, and by the city attorneys.

A man has been reported to have been pointing a gun in different directions--an obvious situation of great concern. A policeman arrives and orders the suspect, reportedly armed and potentially dangerous, to his knees with his hands behind his head, but properly makes no attempt to secure him until help arrives. A second officer arrives and, covered by the first, immobilizes the suspect so that he can apply handcuffs safely, and he does so before securing the suspect's weapon. And that is the time the suspect should be listening and complying, not talking.

If you were responsible for the public safety and for the safety of your officers, and for the fiduciary matters associated with the liabilities of the community, just exactly how would you revise the procedure?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Only the obvious: holster your gun quickly, and be the first to call 911.

That would be what I would say.

 

[hgmike]

Unfortunately cop number two was the senior officer. He started talking about charging me with disorderly conduct, going armed to terrorize the public, and causing a public disturbance. He didn’t ask me for a description of the criminal or a statement until he had berated me for several minutes. He made sure to let me know that I could have killed “a dozen people” by “waving” my gun around. (It is a revolver with well under a dozen rounds.)

Eventually he took my statement and turned me loose. He also told me he was going to “consult” with the DA’s office about pressing charges. He told me a whole list of things I could be charged with. A second lecture on gun safety followed, then he turned me loose.

I would file a complaint based on the officer's unprofessional behavior. These statements were made after the OP was cuffed and the weapons were secured. The officer should be taking statements and gathering information, not lecturing. Leave that to a judge.

BTW glad you're okay and when did you get your gun back?

 

[MikeNice]

And yeah, the one cop was a jerk but at the same time, you should anticipate some rough treatment and words when they arrive on-scene. Keeping everyone involved face-down on the ground is just keeping everyone safe until they can figure out what happened.

He was correct in that you should let the evidence sit where it is. You don't want YOUR prints on the other guy's weapon. I'm guessing that they had some surveillance video that backed up your side of the story.

If he had said to go face down I would have. I started a job recently where I work side by side with cops. I understand the need to keep the scene secure. However, he didn't tell me to get face down. He pushed me down with the sole of his boot. It wasn't a kick. It was unnesecary though.

I never picked up the knife. I found it. and I stood with it between my feet. I didn't want it getting run over or picked up. Never tamper with the scene is rule number three after an SD situation. Rule one is obviously call 9-1-1 and rule two is holster your gun.

The cop's attitude was that I shouldn't have even went over to the weapon. In his opinion since I am not a cop I can not secure the scene. I have no authority to do so and was interfering with his job.

 

[MikeNice]

I got it back at the scene. He was not charging me with a specific gun related crime at the time. Plus he did not take me "down town." So, he returned the gun. I was technically with in the rule of law for pssesion and presentation. He really had no imediate grounds to take the gun.

At least that was my take on things. He wasn't really very clear about things. Plus, one of the other officers actually returned the gun to me. So, I'm not sure if it was a miscommunication. Maybe all of the second officer's bluster was just an attempt to scare me and he never intended to press any charges. Either way, it was returned to me (with the cylinder empty) along with the bullets when the scene was cleared.

 

[answerguy]

Rule #4 then might be:
Don't expect the police to believe we are the good guy just because we say we are and don't expect them to change any procedure because we call out that we have a CCH permit.

 

[MikeNice]

I see this was posted at 3:31am, not sleeping too well these days?

I'm trying to get use to a third shift schedule. I have thought about the situation a lot though. I have actually started carrying even more feverently. I now carry in places where the legality is ambiguous sometimes. If I think I might go anywhere besides that particular place, I carry. I don't take a chance and leave the gun at home.

Not the best post incident response. However, it is normal and over time I'm sure I'll take less "chances" with where I carry.

 

[MikeNice]

Rule #4 then might be:
Don't expect the police to believe we are the good guy just because we say we are and don't expect them to change any procedure because we call out that we have a CCH permit.

Then why do they teach you the first thing to do is state that you are a CCH permit holder and that you have a gun. It is supposed to alert the cop to the presence of the gun and let him know you are complaint. It is supposed to help you avoid a foot to the back.

The first cop reacted perfectly. The second cop was right to search me and secure the weapon. However, violently forcing someone face down, isn't really called for. The suspect had identified who they were, the presence of a gun and permit, and was being compliant. Use of force is up to officer discretion, to some extent. I just don't think this was the right situation for force.

I wouldn't ask for them to change procedure. Just listen, pay attention, and react to the situation at hand. This guy came charging in with out considering the whole situation. A lot of it can be chalked up to the confusion of the two seperate calls. Plus the first officer may not have taken time to call in that he was flagged down.

I am not mad at the procedures. I'm not really mad at the cop. I just think that the extra force and threats of charges were excessive. It was an attempt to intimidate and dominate. It was very unprofessional in my opinion.

 

[dodo bird]

Mike, I gotta ask... What caliber brand revolver, barrel length? Not that it matters just curious.

 

[dodo bird]

I forgot to add. You Sir are a Great American!

 

[MikeNice]

Taurus 85b3. It is a 3" .38spl loaded with 158gr+P lead semi wadcutter hollow points. The bullets are sold as "Federal LE" and come in a white box with black lettering.

The gun is a little hard to find. It turns out that they were exclusively distributed by one distributor for a while. I think Bud's still has a few. I got mine from a friend that bought two at an estate sale.

If you go to Taurus's site the gun isn't even listed as a current or discontinued model. However, Bud's was selling them for a while. They had them incorrectly labelled as 2.5" barrel guns.

 

[shockwave]

The first cop reacted perfectly. The second cop was right to search me and secure the weapon. However, violently forcing someone face down, isn't really called for.

I'm in total agreement. You should have been treated with more respect. The police do not know that you are not a madman with a gun, but they don't know that you are, either. If you wave the cops over and are compliant, you are giving them reasons to think you're not a perp.

A couple of thoughts, though. First, the senior officer was probably speeding through traffic, racing to the scene - officers already there say they've secured the scene, one suspect in custody. Now, this guy's in charge, he shows up, and he wants the cuffs on you. He's all amped up on adrenaline, and he wants to put on a show for the other LEO, and take command of the situation.

That's probably going to be a shoe to the back. Lucky you kept your front teeth.

Watch some old TV cop shows, you see it used to be different. Back when I was a teen, the cops were much more polite. They've really changed. Now, it's pretty much mandatory to prone everybody out, no exceptions. Almost always screaming. When in doubt, add Taser.

What, there's a report of some kids smoking marijuana in a dorm room? Kick down the door with a no-knock warrant, guns drawn, everybody slammed to the floor and knees on backs and on backs of heads - the standard takedown today is pretty damn violent and frightening.

Maybe criminals got tougher, maybe there's some reason for it. But if you, a good guy, who was almost the victim of an armed robbery (actually, you were the victim of an armed robbery) who prevailed and successfully thwarted the crime, get the full screaming, proning-out treatment, then it's understandable you'd feel unjustly treated.

Readers with interest can view a pic of the gun here.
Good-looking gun. Y'know, you point a little mousegun at somebody, they might not even realize it. You point a revolver like that at somebody, they're gonna know it. As you've seen, it can have a powerful intimidating effect.