almost drew my gun yesterday

[Rusty Shackleford]

"thats when i dropped the beer"

...Alcohol Abuse!

Bums that hang out around liquor stores are the ones that seem to be most aggressive. Trying to intimidate people into giving them money should be considered strong armed robbery.

 

[JellyJar]

Here is my 2 cents opinion on the "duty to retreat".

Even if you live in a jurisdiction where there is no legal duty to retreat ( stand your ground type laws even ) trying to retreat in such situations is just plain good tactics!

Had the situation escalated to the point where you had to shoot then the fact that you tried to retreat will help convince the police/DA/grand jury/petite jury ( whichever ) that you are a reasonable person who only shot because of justifiable necessity.

Good Job!

 

[nitetrane98]

Glad everything worked out.

Now about dropping that beer....

Let's fast forward to a courtroom in East Texas.

OP. "thats when i dropped the beer"

Courtroom gallery and Jury gasping and murmuring, "He did what?" "OMG" "Did he say he DROPPED his beer?" "He don't sound like no Yankee."

Judge. Banging gavel "ORDER IN THE COURT. ONE MORE OUTBURST LIKE THAT AND I"LL HAVE THIS COURTROOM CLEARED".

Prosecutor. "This man was so intent on shooting somebody that he actually dropped his beer to do it. Ladies and gentlemen, this a cold hearted killer."

Jury. Nodding "Yep, must be, uh huh, sure is."

Defense. "My client has lived in Texas all his life. You know darned well that if he dropped his beer he must have been scared out of his mind."

Jury. Nodding "Yep, must have been, no other reason."

 

[JellyJar]

One other thing.

Mas Ayood in his book Gravest Extreme ( sorry I can't find my copy to cite chapter and verse ) gave the advice to carry around "chump money". A ten dollar bill ( that book came out about 30 years ago. Recent articles of his now advise that it be twenty dollar bill ) wrapped around a book of matches so that it could be thrown down away from the chumps. In the margin of the bill and behind the matches you should write down your driver license number.

The reasoning behind this is that losing ten or twenty dollars to some chumps is much cheaper than any lawyer's bill would be should you have to shoot. Sure it means giving in to the riffraff but sometimes as Bill Shakespeare once wrote ( perhaps he had the same problem way back then ) "Discretion is the better part of valor".

Then if you still had to shoot the police would find the bill and the matchbook with your driver's license on them providing conclusively that you tried all "reasonable" things to avoid the shooting.

However, I must admit I don't do this but perhaps I should.

 

[Lastmohecken]

After reading this thread, I think I have come up with the conclusion that anyone that legally carries a gun, should probably also carry some form of mace, or pepper spray.

At least that way, on many siduations, when one is just being bullied by a couple of punks, etc., You will have some form of defense, short of deadly force. This is a tricky siduation, you can't let the bad guys get a hold of you and possible take your gun, but at the same time, I would not want to have to defend myself in a court of law, for shooting someone if I could avoid it, espacally if there was no weapon found on the perp or perps.

Granted a case for deadly force could probably still be made, and frankly I wouldn't loose any sleep feeling bad about capping the perps, but I would loose sleep over the possibility of going to jail over it, or having to spend a small fortune to win a court case.

I have never carried mace or pepper spray, but I just might start, in addition to my ccw gun.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

So you weren't going to give him money... you never give money to beggars... but this particular panhandler was screaming, cussing, threatening, and physically coming after you until you were so worried about having to fight back that you just threw down a 10 or 20 dollar bill to get him to not physically assault you.

Isn't that practically the same as just handing over your wallet to an armed robber? I mean, you've just been threatened into giving up money that you previously weren't going to part with. You've just been literally robbed.

Also, wouldn't that encourage him to do this kind of thing more often when people tell him no?

 

[Averageman]

Thats scarey,...I definatley can see a third "Nephew" stepping up behind you with a tire iron.
I think the mace would be appropriate as soon as he stepped between you and your means to escape.
that being said...

I might have a problem with a relative who wouldn't get out of the truck, didnt cell phone 911 and who's total contribution was to sit with his jaw agape.
He very well might have a long walk home.

 

[John_galt]

Totally devl's dvocate here, I've not read the book you cited.

Reverse that throw down money. You might possibly be accused of baiting the guy in and shooting him. The argument might be he had what he came for and you shot him out of spite. I could see that one going either way. A little like the carry your own reloads, could hurt you, probably not be of any significance if force was truly justified.

I've never read the book, but I have on occasion left bill loose out of my money clip so I can pull it out of my pocket without showing all the cash I have. Never thought far enough ahead to write on it. On the other hand I'd rather keep my hands free and clear for other uses than fishing out cash for someone I'm feeling the least bit threatened by.

Kind of an intersting thought - not real sure what I think.

OK, done hijacking thread. Sounds like the original poster did the right thing.

 

[duns]

Mas Ayood in his book Gravest Extreme ( sorry I can't find my copy to cite chapter and verse ) gave the advice to carry around "chump money". A ten dollar bill ( that book came out about 30 years ago. Recent articles of his now advise that it be twenty dollar bill ) wrapped around a book of matches so that it could be thrown down away from the chumps. In the margin of the bill and behind the matches you should write down your driver license number

....

Then if you still had to shoot the police would find the bill and the matchbook with your driver's license on them providing conclusively that you tried all "reasonable" things to avoid the shooting.

I don't do that but I do carry a second wallet with $20 or so in and a bunch of expired credit cards. My idea is that I could throw this to a robber and, hopefully, he would go away. And if I did have to shoot, then (as you said) it would be one more reasonable thing that I had done. My only slight misgiving about this plan is that the robber might check the wallet before leaving and get angry that the cards are expired -- maybe I should leave the cards out and write my DL number on one of the bills? Another option could be to throw down my real wallet but I would hate to lose all my ID documents and my current credit cards.

 

[duns]

So you weren't going to give him money... you never give money to beggars... but this particular panhandler was screaming, cussing, threatening, and physically coming after you until you were so worried about having to fight back that you just threw down a 10 or 20 dollar bill to get him to not physically assault you.

... wouldn't that encourage him to do this kind of thing more often when people tell him no?

I see it as my duty to protect myself not to teach the robber a lesson.

 

[duns]

Reverse that throw down money. You might possibly be accused of baiting the guy in and shooting him. The argument might be he had what he came for and you shot him out of spite.

That's a good point!

 

[KodiakBeer]

I respect Ayoob, but the fact that you gave some money, might also be viewed as a sign of weakness and intensify the demands for even more. What works in one situation, might exacerbate another situation.

 

[Lastmohecken]

I respect Ayoob, and I have read a lot of his books, but I do have a problem with throwing money at thugs. The problem I have is when one does that, he just reinforces that behavior. When a thug relizes that some bullying, and scaring the sheep, will get him a free lunch, even 1 or two times out of ten, then he will keep doing it, and that just goes against my grain.

But Ayoob is right, it probably is the better part of valor, and a heck of a lot cheaper in both time and money, then getting a lawyer and going to court after deciding to teach someone a lesson, or even saving your pride.

I am sure glad I live a place where this sort of behavior is not very common.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

I don't really see how you did anything wrong. Sure some of us are more trigger happy in spirit, but no one wants to take to the last resort. Obviously you felt you didn't ever need to draw, and gave that last warning that saved the day. It appears you would have been ready to use it if necessary and that's what thankfully didn't matter. Good story.

 

[Warhawk83]

Excellent job OP. Your cousin does need a good talking to,for sure. That is definitely not the time to have a deer in the headlights moment.

I too, have decided to start carrying OC spray because of this thread. I wouldn't want to shoot an old aggressive drunk and that may just keep me from having to do so.

 

[Tacbandit]

uspJ .......Well done!

 

[BlayGlock]

Glad you made it home safe. Way to keep your cool (but not your beer cooler).

 

[uspJ]

thanks for the good comments guys.

Excellent job OP. Your cousin does need a good talking to,for sure. That is definitely not the time to have a deer in the headlights moment.

i was mad about it at first but after thinking about it he could have made the situation worse by getting out and trying to help me (if one of them had tried to go after him, it most definetly taken my attention off one of the others.).

Way to keep your cool (but not your beer cooler).

the beer made it home, a little dented but they still drank fine.

 

[AStone]

This is a very informative thread.

It answers a lot of questions I've had over the years.
Good to have a real life scenario as an example. Thanks for posting it.

I agree with others: it seems like you handled it extremely well.

Nem

 

[smartshooter.45]

i had a similar experience with an aggressive transient. i was walking out of a local pizza joint and heading for my motorcycle when i got stopped by a rough looking guy that looked about 30. he asked if i could help him get some food. i had no leftovers and just had my helmet in my hands. i replied "sorry i have no cash" or something like that. immediately he tensed up and his body language said he wanted to fight.

he said something to the tune of " i never asked for money!"
i replied i had no food and that you need money to buy food. as i was saying this i kept backing up toward my bike.with fists balled, he started to follow me over and as he did i squared up and looked at him straight on. i remember saying " i dont want any trouble" in a sure with myself kind of voice.

he stopped, turned and walked back to the sidewalk infront of the pizza joint. i drove off and he stared me down as i rolled away.

it was interesting that at the instant of me mentioning money he got angry and tensed up getting ready to fight. looking back on it, i would guess the guy was not mentally a 100%. when someone asks for money or food, " sorry i dont have any cash" is a pretty typical response..

i had my ccw that day and was glad i had it. i am most glad that i didnt end up needing it. i was able to diffuse the situation by psychologically standing my ground and showing that i was not intimidated by his needless aggression.

i remember it being a beautiful sunny day.

to the OP: nice work. i citizen truly worthy of having a ccw is never looking for a fight. he/she only wants to be able to defend him/herself if the worst case scenario arises.

cheers

 

[rainbowbob]

It is illegal to respond to a "fist-fight" with deadly force in California, meaning that you can't pull a gun out when some jerk just wants to punch your lights out!

Aardvark:
That statement is incorrect based on the statute you cite:

"An assault with fists does not justify use of a deadly weapon in self-defense unless the person being assaulted believes, and a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would also believe, that the assault is likely to inflict great bodily injury."

A reasonable person should have no difficulty believing that a fit young man could likely inflict great bodily injury with his fists. I believe a reasonable person would agree that punching "your lights out" qualifies as great bodily injury - potentially fatal, in fact. Using a deadly weapon in self-defense would be warranted in such a case.

Conversely, it would not be warranted if the person assaulting you with fists was incapable of inflicting serious injury (e.g., a five-year-old).

If you are carrying a deadly weapon (probably especially in CA) you don't want to be paralyzed by legal analysis when faced with a genuine threat.

If you are a reasonable person, you will know if a threat is real and imminent.

The OP sounds like a reasonable person, and he was able to identify and react appropriately to the potential threat. He was also prepared to escalate his response appropriately if his display of force had not ended the threat.

...the reason i didn't draw before was as soon as i pulled up my shirt and grabbed the gun he stopped, if he had continued his advance i would have drawn, if he continued after that i would have fired.

More from Bill Shakespeare: "All's well that ends well."

 

[shockwave]

I have never carried mace or pepper spray, but I just might start, in addition to my ccw gun.

Lately I've been hanging this up with my keys - ASP Key Defender. It's a nice size, doesn't exactly look like a cannister of OC spray, and the delivery unit is one of the best available, plus it doubles as a kuboton, being made of aluminum. Worth the price.

Some old belligerent dude in your face being loud and confrontational is something that happens from time to time, but it doesn't get anywhere close to warranting a shooting, and probably not fisticuffs. If you practice martial arts, there are countless ways to shove the person aside, spin them around and push them from behind, or send them sprawling to the ground. But if that person falls wrong, you could still have an assault problem. Mace is a great option.

 

[Losov]

I'm sure that if you brandished your gun like you described in California, you would have been arrested.

It is illegal to respond to a "fist-fight" with deadly force in California, meaning that you can't pull a gun out when some jerk just wants to punch your lights out!

I seem to recall that the security guard who shot Madonna's intruder was careful to state that he "feared for his life" that the intruder, who was advancing on him, would take away his weapon. He, of course, did have the advantage of having Madonna's vast legal resources behind him, but that does sound like a cogent argument.

 

[heeler]

Handled very well uspj.
I had a very similiar situation from a rough drunken panhandler before getting my CHL.
The threats of violence he was spouting was a bit unnerving to say the least.

Aardvark...That place California is crazy.
Fists can most definitely inflict deadly force or do serious bodily injury.
Men die every year in the boxing ring from being hit.
I know a guy that was hit so hard by some baboon that it literally broke the bone below his left eye and has caused him a lot of sight issues.

 

[Kleanbore]

If you are a reasonable person, you will know if a threat is real and imminent.

Sometimes, yes. At other times, it will be a matter of "reasonable belief."

Either way, that's just step one. Step two is producing evidence to form a basis for judging after the fact whether that belief was reasonable--i.e., whether reasonable people, knowing what you knew at the time, would have believed the same thing. Of course, the testimony of other parties will enter into that determination, and as rough and dangerous as some of those other parties may have appeared to you at the time, you can be assured that they will present an entirely different image in court, should it come to that.

As justified as drawing a gun may have seemed to the actor at the time, and as necessary the use of deadly force may have seemed had it gone that far, others may not see it the same way based on the evidence and testimony presented.

That's one risk. The other is that of sustaining injury or being killed in the confrontation itself. The OP encountered one obnoxious, aggressive person. Later he found that there were two. Could there have been more, coming up from behind?

Someone has posted a paper that I cannot find right now about avoiding trouble, the first strategy being non-attendance at gunfights. Where I live I probably would have looked out before leaving the store, or gone back inside at the first indication of trouble, and called 911. That would work in most places. In the nearby major city, or in the country, it might not, due to longer response times.