Certaindeaf
member
We used to grease our boots with mutton tallow in the Bob Marshall. I guess you could say we were unwittingly fishing for griz.
Fishing For Coyotes
- Thread starter BigN
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KodiakBeer
member
I don't see any advantage to hooking the animal over using a leg hold trap. A leg hold trap is painful, but it's nothing like the agony of hooking an animal.
MCgunner
Member
Wow, another ethics related thread I didn't open. I'm slipping.
It's done to gators routinely and no one seems to care. I've never done it, myself. Gator hunting is expensive and requires the tags and I have no land with gator on it so can't get the tags. I really don't like the idea, though, but the hides do fetch a good bit and the tail is tasty. If I lived where they were cheaper to hunt, I might could get into it. But, i'm not going through an outfitter and spending all that money. What they do is take you out to bait, then you check the lines and when they find on on a line, you get to shoot it out of the boat. Wooopie do. I get more out of trot lining catfish, frankly.
I mean, is it any worse to hook a coyote rather than a gator or even a fish?? This is why I opened that other ethics thread, thinkin' about just this conundrum.
However, I'm NOT a coyote hater. I think they have a place in the scheme of things. They have done much damage to livestock and I've shot 'em in the past for ranchers who's land I was leasing who requested it. Ranchers love you for shooting coyotes and bobcats. If I raised goats, I'd shoot 'em and I'd probably have a nice Great Pyrenees dog like my buddy who raises goats does.
I'm a cat guy. I've seen bobcat in the wild, have an abundance of 'em on my place, but they remind me of my cats and I've never shot one. I had a ball one afternoon watching a couple of young ones play below my stand. Mama must have been out hunting or something. My friend's buddy shot one, had the pelt tanned for a trophy. Me, I really have no interest in shooting a bobcat. See, even I have my soft spot. If I had goats, I'd probably harden that soft spot. I don't think I'd do well on MY place with livestock other than maybe cows, though. Too many yotes and cats down there. It's strictly for my hunting enjoyment. I don't make money off the place.
I'm not a predator hunter. Personally, I'll eat what I shoot, mostly. If I'm not interested in eating it, makes it harder for me to justify the time and effort to shoot it because I just don't get any fun out of it. Most call it work, but butchering is part of the fun! I don't take my game to a butcher, do it all myself, even grind my own sausage.
Now WING shooting is my MAJOR fun! I love to hunt birds, especially waterfowl, but also doves. I eat 'em, of course. Don't hook 'em, LOL.
It's done to gators routinely and no one seems to care. I've never done it, myself. Gator hunting is expensive and requires the tags and I have no land with gator on it so can't get the tags. I really don't like the idea, though, but the hides do fetch a good bit and the tail is tasty. If I lived where they were cheaper to hunt, I might could get into it. But, i'm not going through an outfitter and spending all that money. What they do is take you out to bait, then you check the lines and when they find on on a line, you get to shoot it out of the boat. Wooopie do. I get more out of trot lining catfish, frankly.
I mean, is it any worse to hook a coyote rather than a gator or even a fish?? This is why I opened that other ethics thread, thinkin' about just this conundrum.
However, I'm NOT a coyote hater. I think they have a place in the scheme of things. They have done much damage to livestock and I've shot 'em in the past for ranchers who's land I was leasing who requested it. Ranchers love you for shooting coyotes and bobcats. If I raised goats, I'd shoot 'em and I'd probably have a nice Great Pyrenees dog like my buddy who raises goats does.
I'm a cat guy. I've seen bobcat in the wild, have an abundance of 'em on my place, but they remind me of my cats and I've never shot one. I had a ball one afternoon watching a couple of young ones play below my stand. Mama must have been out hunting or something. My friend's buddy shot one, had the pelt tanned for a trophy. Me, I really have no interest in shooting a bobcat. See, even I have my soft spot. If I had goats, I'd probably harden that soft spot. I don't think I'd do well on MY place with livestock other than maybe cows, though. Too many yotes and cats down there. It's strictly for my hunting enjoyment. I don't make money off the place.
I'm not a predator hunter. Personally, I'll eat what I shoot, mostly. If I'm not interested in eating it, makes it harder for me to justify the time and effort to shoot it because I just don't get any fun out of it. Most call it work, but butchering is part of the fun! I don't take my game to a butcher, do it all myself, even grind my own sausage.
Now WING shooting is my MAJOR fun! I love to hunt birds, especially waterfowl, but also doves. I eat 'em, of course. Don't hook 'em, LOL.
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Mike1234567
member
MCgunner... Please point to the posts in any of the four current "ethics" threads in which someone considers fish or frogs or whatever incapable of feeling fear and/or pain. I think there were a couple but no more and those were from people with which I adamantly disagree.
You continue to argue a point that few of us disagree with... that there's really no way for any of us to know to what degree any living creature feels fear or pain. And most of us agree that most or all living creatures experience both at least to some degree.
With the above stated... why do you argue that any form of hunting is okay? You're either contradicting yourself... or you're letting the world know that you really don't care about the fear and suffering of other creatures.
You continue to argue a point that few of us disagree with... that there's really no way for any of us to know to what degree any living creature feels fear or pain. And most of us agree that most or all living creatures experience both at least to some degree.
With the above stated... why do you argue that any form of hunting is okay? You're either contradicting yourself... or you're letting the world know that you really don't care about the fear and suffering of other creatures.
MCgunner
Member
I'm a predator. That's my niche in life. It's what I do and I will admit it, even revel in it. I am sort of a Ted Nugent about it. (love his book I'm reading, "Ted, White, and Blue") And, I might not LIKE a type of hunting, but if it's legal, I'm not telling anyone they're an arse for doing it. If it's not my thing, I just won't do it. I'll let folks like yourself carry the torch for animal rights. I have enough time in this society protecting MY rights as a citizen. NRA, tea party and all that. I have higher issues than animal rights. Don't really believe in the concept, anyhow. If it came to a vote, I'd vote to outlaw the hooking of coyotes and probably gators as it just HAS to hurt. But, I also realize how cruel life in the wild really is. I've seen a gator take a duck, albeit one I'd already shot and was wading out to get, can imagine what they'd do to a pig or whatever. I'm not holier than thou about such things.
Alll that said, I'd have to look up this coyote hooking thing. I'm not sure it's legal in Texas, seems like it wouldn't be, but don't know. Texas game law is hard on predators that deplete livestock. When was a kid, the coyote hadn't invaded the coastal prairie and we had red wolves and ranchers used cyanide traps on 'em. That was quick. The coyotes came, bred the wolf out of existence. They're too prolific to control so maybe ranchers can hook 'em, don't know. The one guy I knew that worked for a ranch trapping coyotes, used snares. I was always working on his POS ATV, was running a small engine shop at the time.
Anyway, my point with fish, gators and such was that it seems no one cares about scaly animals. It's all about warm, fuzzy critters, especially if they remind us of fido, or fideaux for you cajuns out there. There were a few responses on my thread that condemned bow fishing as cruel. Go read it, wasn't too far along in the thread. Hey, it's all opinion, really. Everyone's got a right to an opinion....so far, until they finally trash the constitution, but that's political, sorry. But, I find it hard to figure out how someone would be all aghast at shooting a carp with a bow, then go out and blow a deer's head off in the interest of "sport", or, vice versa. Meat is available at the store, ya know. Just me, though. Everyone has their own justifications.
Alll that said, I'd have to look up this coyote hooking thing. I'm not sure it's legal in Texas, seems like it wouldn't be, but don't know. Texas game law is hard on predators that deplete livestock. When was a kid, the coyote hadn't invaded the coastal prairie and we had red wolves and ranchers used cyanide traps on 'em. That was quick. The coyotes came, bred the wolf out of existence. They're too prolific to control so maybe ranchers can hook 'em, don't know. The one guy I knew that worked for a ranch trapping coyotes, used snares. I was always working on his POS ATV, was running a small engine shop at the time.
Anyway, my point with fish, gators and such was that it seems no one cares about scaly animals. It's all about warm, fuzzy critters, especially if they remind us of fido, or fideaux for you cajuns out there. There were a few responses on my thread that condemned bow fishing as cruel. Go read it, wasn't too far along in the thread. Hey, it's all opinion, really. Everyone's got a right to an opinion....so far, until they finally trash the constitution, but that's political, sorry. But, I find it hard to figure out how someone would be all aghast at shooting a carp with a bow, then go out and blow a deer's head off in the interest of "sport", or, vice versa. Meat is available at the store, ya know. Just me, though. Everyone has their own justifications.
Mike1234567
member
I understand where you're coming from, MC. I just wish you would listen to your own words. I do not think you're cruel by nature but rather a realist. My question to you is why not be a realist with the most compassion you can afford to give whatever creature you're hunting?
MCgunner
Member
I have never lost large game, though I've had to track a few. I've shot lots of deer and hogs, probably a little lucky in that regard, but I'm the best in the field rifle shot that I know, no brag, just fact. Of course, that could reflect upon the people that I know. Hmmm.... But, stuff can happen.
Losing game and cripples are just a fact of life in wing shooting. You lose fewer with a dog, but I haven't owned a lab in a while, living in the city at the moment.
I'm a realist and I try to think logically, not with emotion. Mr. Spock was my hero.
Big Bad Bob
Member
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- Feb 25, 2011
- Messages
- 388
i have heard of it, mostly from older gentlemen. I wouldnt use this method, one because in my book it is cruel in that it would cause immense pain to the animal without causing a quick death and there are better more consistent means of trapping yotes. I prefer to shoot them though.
baronthered
Member
Heard of people doing that here.
T Bran
Member
If it's not against the law it should be. Though I'm not one in favor of more rules in this country. Being intentionally cruel by leaving an animal hanging from a hook for days or even hours is pretty sick.
I set a lot of snares for hogs and check them frequently often times the hog is sleeping under a bush when I return. Even hogs deserve better treatment than hanging on a hook that aint in the smokehouse.
I set a lot of snares for hogs and check them frequently often times the hog is sleeping under a bush when I return. Even hogs deserve better treatment than hanging on a hook that aint in the smokehouse.
Guillermo
member
I have read about the practice.
While I am not advocating it nor speaking to the legality of it, I have read about it.
From what I have gleaned, the coyote jumps up and grabs the meat and thus the hook. He immediately begins thrashing. In short order he breaks his own neck.
As to the time it takes, I know not.
Were I to have coyote problems I would check on the legality of all methods. But if this passed the legal test, I would look more into it before I made a judgement.
It may not be as bad as it appears.
While I am not advocating it nor speaking to the legality of it, I have read about it.
From what I have gleaned, the coyote jumps up and grabs the meat and thus the hook. He immediately begins thrashing. In short order he breaks his own neck.
As to the time it takes, I know not.
Were I to have coyote problems I would check on the legality of all methods. But if this passed the legal test, I would look more into it before I made a judgement.
It may not be as bad as it appears.
25cschaefer
Member
I used to help a buddy do it when I was a kid, I would say about 8 out of 10 would be killed instantly by the hook going into the brain. We would only set the bait at night and check them early in the morning to lesson the chance of a "dangler". I don't see how it is any more cruel than a leg hold. It was a large ranch and between 10 hooks we routinely caught 10 coyotes a night. We would do it until they would turn up dry every summer.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Regardless of whether I approve or disapprove, if the "hooker" is a rancher in the sheep'n'goat business, I'm gonna keep my fat mouth shut. His deal is food on the table and paying the school taxes.
Now, me, not really needing to protect my quality of life by varmint-hunting for Ol' Wily, I'm gonna try to shoot and make a clean kill.
Now, me, not really needing to protect my quality of life by varmint-hunting for Ol' Wily, I'm gonna try to shoot and make a clean kill.
Carl N. Brown
Member
My personal objection to traps (and poison for that matter) is the collateral damage to non-target species.
The hanging of hooks for 'gators is done in a way that about the only species that will take the bait is gators, and the gator hunters have incentive to locate the gators while alive and fresh, and kill them execution style as cleanly as possible, medulla oblongata shot severing the spinal cord at the base of the brain.
As much as I dislike coyotes and would have no qualms with shoot on sight (they are an invasive pest in Tennessee), I do not like the idea of a coyote dying on a baited hook that might coincidentally snare unintended targets.
The hanging of hooks for 'gators is done in a way that about the only species that will take the bait is gators, and the gator hunters have incentive to locate the gators while alive and fresh, and kill them execution style as cleanly as possible, medulla oblongata shot severing the spinal cord at the base of the brain.
As much as I dislike coyotes and would have no qualms with shoot on sight (they are an invasive pest in Tennessee), I do not like the idea of a coyote dying on a baited hook that might coincidentally snare unintended targets.
Guillermo
member
Mr. Eatman and I are on the same page.
My objection would plummet if the "fisher" were a rancher.
25cschaefer has experience and 80% are found dead.
I have no reason to do it, and don't advocate it. But I am not going to condemn it either.
Check local laws before you do any trapping.
My objection would plummet if the "fisher" were a rancher.
25cschaefer has experience and 80% are found dead.
I have no reason to do it, and don't advocate it. But I am not going to condemn it either.
Check local laws before you do any trapping.
buck460XVR
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,085
Exactly . This is why it is not only unethical here in Wisconsin, it is illegal. From the WI trapping regs.
Years ago, hookin' coyotes may have been a necessary and practical evil. Nowadays it is just cruel.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Down on the mountain, Kelly Paul lost calves to coyotes, so I can imagine how little he would have thought of the suffering of coyotes.
swiftak
Member
I'm a trapper. I would never do that. Pretty sure it would be against the law in NH.
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rumblebee1967
Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2011
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- 13
Interesting to see people debate the ethics of how killing should be accomplished.
Mike1234567
member
Interesting sarcastic comment. Do you eat meat or fish?
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
rumblebee, in going on fourteen years at TFL and THR, I've yet to see anybody who disagrees with the idea that a quick clean kill with minimal suffering is NOT the ideal.
Most of us, not being in the ranching business, don't have any skin in the game. So, we generally operate in a stricter ethical structure than the guy who can easily have a lower standard of living for himself and his family by being "nice" in his efforts at predator control.
Most of us, not being in the ranching business, don't have any skin in the game. So, we generally operate in a stricter ethical structure than the guy who can easily have a lower standard of living for himself and his family by being "nice" in his efforts at predator control.
Guillermo
member
Again Mr. Eatman has nailed it.
Just like with hunting. I take my time and pass up shots so as to get the deer I want with the best shot possible. I would rather go home without a deer than injure an animal or have an inhumane kill. But my family is not counting on the meat to survive. If it was "kill or go hungry" the standards would change.
As to the morality of the practice, I am not convinced that it is so bad. Trapping in general leaves an animal in pain for hours. This sounds bad but is it any worse that other methods? I don't know enough about it to make a judgement.
It appears that only one person on this thread has any first hand experience.
Just like with hunting. I take my time and pass up shots so as to get the deer I want with the best shot possible. I would rather go home without a deer than injure an animal or have an inhumane kill. But my family is not counting on the meat to survive. If it was "kill or go hungry" the standards would change.
As to the morality of the practice, I am not convinced that it is so bad. Trapping in general leaves an animal in pain for hours. This sounds bad but is it any worse that other methods? I don't know enough about it to make a judgement.
It appears that only one person on this thread has any first hand experience.
The Termite
Member
I did a fair amount of fur trapping in HS, and for a year or 2 during college, before the fur price collapse. This was late '70s/early 80's. Raccoons and fox, mainly, using leg traps. Of course steel traps hurt. I've caught my fingers in them. Didn't stop me from using them, though.
I've also put down dogs, many cats, and a few lame cows. I did it as quickly and efficiently as practical, usually a firearm, but several times used a knife.
I view it thus:
Animals are animals, not humans. They do not have "rights", at least not "natural" rights as described by Thomas Hobbs, John Locke, Thomas Paine, or Thomas Jefferson. Using animals for food, their hides/skins for clothing, shoes, etc, is not unethical. Nor is killing wild or feral animals that are threatening your livestock, or in the case of feral pigs, destroying the local flora . If "fishing" for coyotes was the most efficient way of killing them, and I was a sheep farmer, then I would do it.
However, we as humans are morally/ethically charged to be good stewards to this Earth; and that includes the animals.
Needless cruel behavior to animals is unethical. It is a sign of moral turpitude, possibly even mental instability.
I've also put down dogs, many cats, and a few lame cows. I did it as quickly and efficiently as practical, usually a firearm, but several times used a knife.
I view it thus:
Animals are animals, not humans. They do not have "rights", at least not "natural" rights as described by Thomas Hobbs, John Locke, Thomas Paine, or Thomas Jefferson. Using animals for food, their hides/skins for clothing, shoes, etc, is not unethical. Nor is killing wild or feral animals that are threatening your livestock, or in the case of feral pigs, destroying the local flora . If "fishing" for coyotes was the most efficient way of killing them, and I was a sheep farmer, then I would do it.
However, we as humans are morally/ethically charged to be good stewards to this Earth; and that includes the animals.
Needless cruel behavior to animals is unethical. It is a sign of moral turpitude, possibly even mental instability.
Mike1234567
member
^^^ That's about the best post I've read on the subject, right there.
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