Flashlights as a tactic?

[sm]

Gewehr98,

Carlin speaks true.

Folks-

Just me, but lights give someone something to shoot at. I just happen to be allergic to Bullets and Aspirin.
I don't take aspirin, and not real keen on getting into a spot where I got to hold onto a light with incoming fire - incoming fire has the right of way.
Then again I don't handle live wires either...

See, some folks I have assisted with, still do are on limited funds. Nothing wrong with nice equipment and all - just Model 10s, Maglights, and other simple things are proven.

Mindset and all is especially needed for some folks with physical limits, age, amputees, and whatever.

Not going to where trouble is, evading if trouble shows and dealing with trouble if no choice - and the knowing how is more important that the equipment itself .

70 year man with some aches and pains is best to evade if can, and not try to "just shine a light" or use a light for a impact weapon. He has a gun.

Not that this fellow cannot use a cane, umbrella, coffee mug, 20oz plastic soda bottle , or car antenna - as I have.

Just getting that "close" is not a good idea in the first place, he is not as fast and agile as he once was.
He can still from concealment get first shot onto target in 1.0 - 1.2 seconds and get all rounds into a playing card at 7 yds shooting fast as can with a revolver.

Point being don't limit yourself to only certain tools being used only one way.
Be flexible and think out of the box.

Gewehr98, don't forget the tactical harmonica to summon help with the two match sticks taped to the sides of it.

 

[Gewehr98]

Well, good.

I am purty darned sure that the "strike bezel" everybody makes fun of would crack a skull without too much trouble...

I'm glad you have your defensive strategy all worked out. Good for you.

BTW, my fellow sheriff's deputies have been carrying around big Maglites for some years now, sans super-dooper tacticool crenellated bezels, and they tell me they're good at cracking skulls, too. Ya' know, since there's a lot of call for that sort of stuff and all...

 

[Geronimo45]

Skull cracking? Maybe. Your forehead can be made into a bloody mess if you cut it, that strike bezel ought to work good at that - blood in the eyes will impair most attackers - unless you're mugged by Ray Charles.

 

[Gewehr98]

That's gonna have to take a back seat in the G-98 Evil Lab for now, SM.

Gewehr98, don't forget the tactical harmonica to summon help with the two match sticks taped to the sides of it.

I've got a new marketing idea that needs some work in the graphics department, so I've got my Adobe Creative Suite fired up on this workstation. "Tactical Tampax - not just for pu55ies anymore!" Catchy, ain't it?

 

[JMusic]

Flashlights for me are used to establish boundaries and to emphasis I'm serious. As far as striking you may want to consider points other than the head. Collar bones, elbows, and the side of the knee are better points of impact. The bezel in my opinion is better used to push or grasp with. Pinning someone up against the wall with a bezel in their throat or chest would be going from defensive to offensive, and I'm sure debilatating if you put some weight behind it.

I think some people miss the point of this thread. Simply stated I'm saying shooting is not always the answer and you need to establish other techniques. If you can show escalation you will better survive the second battle for your life, the first ofcourse being the shooting. Now I realize some attacks do not allow for this scenerio but many do. I like a flashlight better than OC. I believe it is more versatile. Largest disagrrement I have with some statements here is a flashlight is not a weapon. It is and has been. Learn to use it to your advantage or find another tool and learn it. Three items I keep on me at all times, gun, knife, and flashlight. Guess which one I use the most? Everyone have a Happy New Year.

Jim

 

[sm]

Not sure the world is quite ready- then again when is it ever?

Using a flashlight :
-can be $1 plastic model with regular batteries to throw over there and run the other way.
-knock down tools on a wall rack to make noise to distract to evade.
-Throw on to knock down and end aisle display in a store and have cans roll every which way
-Kick it under a door with clearance to act as a door stop
-shove a Solitare light in a fold over hasp door to keep door "locked" to evade the other way.
- Break a window to gain access to MVA and get to occupants - and yes a Case pocketknife will zip through a seat belt in a nanosecond.
-Groin , knee, Adam's Apple...

Good Grief before Mag-Lites came out in ~ 1955 Police used other flashights to deal with real everyday Threats and Needs

Stanley Thermos brand coffee thermos has been used in Strategy and Tactics.

Floods, officer in boat retrieving folks and he went in the flood waters. Tie a rope to Thermos and throw like hell to officer...Thermos floats, officer gets rope and done.

Brakes go out on a vehicle, and gets stopped feathering emergency brake - shove that Thermos under a tire and wait for tow truck.

Whacking folks over heads, or with a gun is not the ONLY answer to everything. Does not work in fire or floods...these might be the immediate threat.

Think outside the box.

 

[MBane666]

Might wanna watch SHOOTING GALLERY next week at the new Wednesday times...Mike Janich addresses the issue of "HOW TO TAKE A KNIFE TO A GYNFUGHT," (yea, a new level of political incorrectness for moi!) that touches on the potential use of impact weapons in conjunction with firearms...

Michael B

 

[Jeff White]

Yes, light can be used as a weapon. Just how effective a weapon is going to depend on a lot of factors. I'm sure that JMusic started out using light as a tool during traffic stops. There is a reason the officer who pulls you over at night creates a wall of light with takedown lights and spotlights. I like to hit the sideview mirror with my spotlight right before I approach a car on a vehicle stop. If the driver has his mirror adjusted properly, he'll get a brief flash of light in his eyes, which may be enough of a distraction to break up any possible planned ambush as I approach the car.

Rapid oscillating or strobing light can have a disorienting effect on a subject. Be advised that just like OC, Tasers, firearms or any other force option, it won't work on everyone. But if you take your high intensity light (Surefire, Streamlight) and move the hot spot rapidly across the subject's pupils in a horizontal manner it can be just as disorienting as a strobe. The Gladious flashight has a built in strobe for this purpose. This is a close range technique and I wouldn't try it any farther then room distance.

Light can be a powerful tool in your toolbox.

Jeff

 

[Zoogster]

The light itself is most definately a weapon. It can both blind and distract as well as keep someone completely uninformed about who or what the person from its direction is or what they have or are carrying. There is also to my knowledge no law governing blinding people with lights (unless they are lasers.) So whether it is a cop trying to gain the advantage by illuminating and blinding someone at the same time, a home owner trying to illuminate and blind a burglar at night or even a criminal trying to blind a victim, a light gives the person not blinded a tremendous advantage. The exact distance of the light and a hand, nightstick, gun or incoming fist is hidden behind the light source.
Of course this could also be a slight disadvantage as a citizen trying to convince a perp to give up if they cannot see the weapon pointed at them.

As far as a striking weapon, well then it is governed by the same rules as using another blunt 'deadly' weapon. I seem to recall a cop that liked to prey on women in the SD area a decade or so ago accidently killing a woman with his maglight while roughing her up.. He hid her body and got away with it for awhile before finaly being caught and successfuly tried. While hanging out with other officers one commented on a location that would be perfect for hiding bodies if he ever had to, and the guilty cop turned extremely pale. Later when they searched that area they found her body there. I guess more than one cop thought it was ideal.

 

[BullfrogKen]

JMusic said: Don't make the mistake that your experiences are all encompassing. Drills are just that, they do not add that extra edge of the unknown that can be used to your advantage if you are aware, and take advantage of the attackers reactions.

I wouldn't assume that any one individual's experiences are definitive. My conclusions were certainly not arrived by merely my own experiences. They come from nearly 2 decades of Study Group and NTI historical studies. They contain hundreds of Simunitions and Force on Force drills, performed by people of all skill levels and backgrounds, from the "professional operators" to the "armed citizen". Those studies have shown us several consistent themes about high intensity lights:

• They don't incapacitate nearly as much as most assert they will
• They do anger those they are used upon
• It escalates an interaction with those pre-disposed to fighting, but who might have otherwise been willing or otherwise persuaded to let the confrontation resolve without a fight
• At the distances a Violent Criminal Actor commonly initiates the attack, the inability to see, whether due to bright light in the eyes, or even total blindness, has marginal effectiveness on his ability to press onward with his attack and even land blows with his chosen weapon
• The Practitioners that relied on them to perform the claims of blindness or incapacitation did not do as well in Force on Force encounters as those who used them to either immediately effect an escape, or in conjuction with, and as a distraction to, an immediate attack

JMusic said: Flashlights for me are used to establish boundaries and to emphasis I'm serious.

Well, see, this premise touches the heart of the issue. Most folks, the majority of people you and I interact with, are not willing to engage in battles with another human being. However, a very small population, even small just within the criminal element, are willing to fight. They are not dissuaded by a light, or even the barrel of a gun, emphasizing that you are serious about engaging them. For most criminals engaging in acts such as muggings, merely the chance for resistance means the possibility of injury, and an injured criminal cannot prey on others easily . . . it draws attention to him should he need medical care . . . and frankly they don't have the desire to actually engage in mortal combat over pocket cash.

Any violence he uses to this point is instrumental . . . The typical set-up is designed to maximize his advantage, exploit his victim's disadvantage, and to discourage any resistance. As a detective, you surely have seen this overwhelming trend in the typical random encounters citizens have with criminals.

Now . . . we can do things to move him out of instrumental violence into expressive violence. At that point, the VCA is no longer interested in his original intentions, now may fight to right some perceived wrong. Acts such as shining a bright light in his eyes will do this. Some will back down, and . . . some will escalate. But the use of a light will not hamper his ability to act. It will serve as a distraction, but the practitioner better be using it with the intention of either retreating the area, or enhancing his advantage in a fight.

Using it to establish boundaries or display assertiveness is best left to those with duties to act. A light from a squad car, as Jeff speaks of, or an interview from a uniformed officer is a completely different scenario than that of an armed citizen. The dynamic is entirely different.


Personally, and these are my personal comments and not reflective of our studies . . . I don't like those strike bezels. They rip and tear at clothing. I have broken supposedly "impact resistant" bulbs on these lights, and after striking someone with it . . . I'd expect it to not be effective as a flashlight afterwards. And yes, I do train with all the tools I have on my belt with regularity.

 

[JMusic]

Well stated. I still believe you and I are not communicating what we are trying to say, at least I'm not. This has worked for me. I'm far from a bleeding heart here. I'm about as aggressive as it gets. Lights in my opinion are assets in more ways than one. We'll have to agree to disagree. I've followed your writings for quite some time. I'd say this is one of few disagreements we have had. Have a Happy New Year. After rereading I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not. Let me say this. A bright light in the eyes will momentary disoreontate, a plus. They will get mad, another plus. Shinning a light in someone's eyes is an offensive move. Be prepared to escalate, it very well may happen, if not, it is still better than capping someone.

I have used a light to mark a boundry. Hit them with a light," DO NOT COME ANY CLOSER!" I have used it at bad breath distance just before I hit them with it. Their reaction time is gone. Bullfrog we can continue or if you want to discuss PM and we will talk, but if we are on different pages that probably is where we will stay. Take care.

Jim

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Sorry, guys, forgot the sarcasm smiley.

A friend of mine has a father who is a bit of a... character. He works for a multibillion dollar lab/research company which shall remain nameless (hint: named after a prominent Delawarean family). As such, he's usually leaving the lab at god damn o'clock at night (or in the morning) in his rattly old Ford Explorer that he leaves his two canoes lashed to year 'round.

This was many years ago, before those "million candlepower" rechargable light thingamabobs became popular. So for marine work he had what basically amounted to a truck headlight wired up to a small motorcycle battery. It happened to be on his passenger seat this night, as it was most nights. I dunno, I only remember that I always had to move the danged thing when I sat there and it weighed a ton.

Anyway, DE state trooper pulls him over for a "checkup stop" because it's goddamn o'clock at night and here's this scruffy ex-hippie looking dude with two beat up canoes lashed to his roof. And the cop comes up and shines his Maglite in my friend's father's face to see if he's high, in response to which he puts his hand on his flashlight-contraption (headlight end pointed towards the officer) and curtly requests "Will you get that damn light out of my eyes?"

The officer does.

The rest of the stop proceeded without incident.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I've got a 3 D cell Mag along with half a dozen AA Mags, a couple pen size Streamlights, not to mention the other one-offs from vendors at work, some quite handy. The wife got me an interesting one for a Christmas stocking stuffer. It's called the Illuminator 2. No batteries, just wind it up. 3 fairly bright LEDs. 1 minute cranking yields 1 hour of continuous light. No good for bashing somebody over the head, though.

 

[crofrog]

A flashlight is a tool. I guess it can be used as a weapon . . . to strike with. Light really isn't a weapon. At best, its a distraction.

That's how I've used my flashlight in actuall fights. I use it as a opener, it resets the ooda loop just momentarly and makes them start reacting to me.

 

[JShirley]

I am purty darned sure that the "strike bezel" everybody makes fun of would crack a skull without too much trouble

up onus, that's the problem: not everyone makes fun of them, understands how pointless they are, and how likely they are to be a liability.

I like and use lights daily, but I also agree with Ken's points.

John

 

[quiettype]

I have a Surefire z2 and use it as a general use flashlight.65 lumens and a 1 hour run time.I also have a 12ZM,500+ lumens that is designed to blind,disorient and to totally screw up anyone's ability to do much of anything.

 

[brownie0486]

Ken,

NTI historical studies?

* They don't incapacitate nearly as much as most assert they will

At the NTI's, the role players are not to be physically harmed by the attendees [ at least the one I attended ]. If one were to use a 3 or 4 D cell flashlight as Jim has actually used on the streets, against people at NTI, I would have to guess the results would be the same.

* They do anger those they are used upon

* It escalates an interaction with those pre-disposed to fighting, but who might have otherwise been willing or otherwise persuaded to let the confrontation resolve without a fight

Here again, NTI would seem to be a poor indicator to me of peoples street reactions. How I would react on the streets is not how I was allowed to react at NTI in some of the scenarios, to insure the role players did not get injured.

* At the distances a Violent Criminal Actor commonly initiates the attack, the inability to see, whether due to bright light in the eyes, or even total blindness, has marginal effectiveness on his ability to press onward with his attack and even land blows with his chosen weapon

With the above determination, would it be safe to assume that the ones who pressed the attack were told to fight through and press on as best they could with the specific goal of making determinations through observations for the study of this subject?

Again it would seem that this might likely be the case at NTI, in the form of research into the subject through role playing. Keeping in mind the role players are not to be physically harmed by the attendees at the annual event, I'm having difficulty believing that real data can be extrapolated that mirrors the street.

In one NTI scenario I attended, I saw what was coming down with role players [ in a street scenario ] and put my hand on the sim gun they gave me in preparation to escalate to deadly force as I would on the street in a similiar real world situation. I was summarily sent to their jail for preparing to preempt an attack. On the street, it would have saved my life, at the NTI, I was penalized for that.

Realizing that role players could not be injured by the rules of play, another scenario would have had quite a different outcome as well for the role player, but again, due to restrictions of play could not be used like it would on the street.

Shine a big eff-off bright light in my eyes and the first thing I'm going to do is shoot at the light to make you stop.

You might want to rethink that thought process a little.

Brownie

 

[BedPimp]

I'm a fan of maglites. They are relatively cheap, abundant, and tend to be reliable. Recently I found these switches:

http://www.niteize.com/productdetai...25&PHPSESSID=25554be2984d3d7b35f0e872a09eacee

They create a switch on the back of the minimag, which makes it faster to use, plus it gives 3 levels of light and 2 strobes, a fast and a slow. It also has a red LED in the button that flashes so you can find it on the nightstand in the dark.

I also like the LED bulb upgrade, although I've found the MAG brand LED bulb is much more expensive, and I had one break when I dropped a flashlight. No problems with any of the off-brand LED's yet.

I also have a $20 really bright faux tactical light which is nice, really bright, and uses AAA batteries which I always have around. No good holster for it, though, so I tend to carry the minimag.

 

[JMusic]

Jeff's commnet brought to memory some tactics we used in setting up our cruisers. Mid 70's, a spot light was a simple incandesent sealed bulb. We would "borrow" aircraft landing lights from the local air guard. These would be mounted in our spots along with the light bars on top. On the SO you could always tell the guys who worked 2nd or 3rd. They had these strange flat sealed beam lights in their spots and light bars.

A couple comments then I will let this drop. Its apparent to me we have a split group on the value of lights.

I recently taught a self defense course for women. After some discussion (I really want to thank Pax here. She is a good sounding board and gave me some insites that were valuable into the mind of the female warrior.) I decided to make the course Non lethal. Their primary weapons were three items. Cell phone, OC spray(foam) and flashlight. The light was a single cell Surefire, LED or Incandescent. Tactics were based on shopping after dark. Several senerios were worked out and deployed. Females would participate knowing they could do three things, return to store, evade and call for help, and if necessary engage (at distance) then flee. I taught that once the decision to engage was made you followed through with no debate. Overall it was a success and the ladies felt much more comfortable when out. I think their awareness was also raised to now it is a conscious thought. The flashlight and OC were used in conjunction with each other and the light was used to declare boundries.

Jim

 

[Gewehr98]

24/28 volt aircraft lights in 12 volt squad cars?

Color me intrigued, one, as a retired USAF B-52H and WC-135W flyer, and two, as a current sheriff's deputy. Not a lot of 12 volt airplanes, and not a lot of 24/28 volt squad cars, last I looked. (Military aircraft run on 28vdc, civilian on 24vdc)

Regardless, flashlights with their improved technology do a wonderful job lighting up dark places. Defensive weapons, well, I suppose that's an all-or-none proposition there.

However, "crennelated tactical bezel" or otherwise, it was always common knowledge that the big D-cell Maglites could be used to brain somebody - if that's your thing. They're not particulary the easy thing to pack in one's purse to defend one's self, but as SM stated, think outside the box and use what you have. Car keys, antenna, umbrella, you name it. Heck, there's even a 1911 variant out there that has something like a pommel spike mounted on the mainspring housing where the old lanyard loop used to sit. Plan "B"?

BedPimp, NiteIze wasn't the first to offer tailcap switches for the MiniMaglites. I have an older rubberized version from anothe vendor, but it works nicely with the LED conversion they sell, you are correct.

 

[Sidewinder6]

Talk about memories...

I suppose many of you are too old to remember the 7 D Cell Kel Flashlight. They made a C Cell one as well but it never had the raw kinetic energy the D Cell did. Great for the weak hand even. Once you swing it, its like a bat. Problem is with the knurled surface, they would cut but make no mistake, they were fine.

Even though all the lights today are little hand held jobs, you can use them quite nicely on a kucklehead with a hammer fist. I wouldnt waste time shining a light in their eyes using the bulb. A wack on the side of the head will produce plenty of lights without running down your battery.

From an Old School guy. (Pre-PC)

 

[10-Ring]

I have a few Surefire lights & a couple Streamlights...you can really slow someone down if you take away their ability to see properly. I use to like Mag lites as impact weapons...just not a big fan of their lights.

 

[JMusic]

Gewehr98 I don't know what you are trying to infer here but they were Aircraft landing lights and they Did fit spot and driving light bezels. This may be a bit off topic but I think you are questioning credibility here and I assure you sir I have no reason to embelish ANYTHING. If you do a quick google search on 12 Volt aircraft landing lights you will see bulbs just as described, some up to 12 million candle power.

Cracking someone on the head with a light is not what this thread is about. Its about utilizing tools in creative ways to "Keep you out of an altercation." Maybe that's too foriegn of a concept, just trying to point out that pulling your gun doesn't always have to happen. In self defense we use vast amounts of time practicing with the tool "you are least likely to use". This forum is named Strategies and Tactics. I wonder just what that means.

Jim

 

[mrmeval]

lesjones

Next thing you know you'll be hooked on HID handhelds.

Of course I have a 3300 lumen Navy battle lantern with an 8hr runtime.

It weights a few pounds.
But it was tested by the contractor with explosives

 

[Gewehr98]

JMusic, I'm not questioning one's credibility.

No need to get defensive. I'm simply asking, as somebody with more than just a little experience with both parts of the equation, how they did it. 28 volt military (you said they came from the Air National Guard, right? Air Guard aircraft are all 28 volts DC, including the lights, if you didn't know that) aircraft lights don't shine very bright when fed 12 volts from a non-military vehicle. Honest. Something had to be added to the equation for them to get from point "A" to point "B" in that scenario, be it a spare 12v battery in series with the squad car's, an inverter, a second alternator, etc. That's sort of a poor return on the investment and effort when there are plenty of high-brightness non-military 12v lights out there. They could very well have been 12 volt landing lights installed in those squad cars, but I can guarantee they didn't come from the Air National Guard or Air Force. 12/14 volt landing lights are usually the domain of pre-'78 Cessna 150s, experimental, and amateur-built aircraft under FAA rules.