Flight attendant brings ccw to airport

[Ehtereon11B]

I am a police officer and I have had training on revolvers. AND I am pretty green compared to other members of my department. Revolvers are popular among the populace, not so much among police now. It is a smart idea to train LEOs on revolvers because if you roll up to a scene and you have to secure a firearm, you can't say "I wasn't trained on that."

I have been to quite a few large airports. Atlanta, JFK, O'hare to name a few. As well as small airports Birmingham, Burlington and Plattsburgh International. All of them were rent-a-cops and TSA. The only real police officers I see at airports are outside in parking lots and drop off zones.

 

[skywalkrNCSU]

You are not allowed to take a firearm through airport security and board the cabin of the plane with it. You can check a firearm as baggage, however, but that's not what she was doing. I believe it was inadvertant, but I doubt she'll get her CCW permit back, but I may be wrong.

Depends on the state laws. In Texas it reads something like if you KNOWINGLY carry in an off limits place you are breaking the law. If you can show that you did not know the gun was in your bag and it was a mistake you can get it dropped. Of course that is very subjective but it gives you more of a chance than in a state that doesn't have that clause.

 

[Pismopal]

Some LEO are experts with every form of firearm but a few are about as interested and familiar with most firearms as I am with a B52. Some LEO's are expert drivers and even beyond....others are simply marginally competent. When I began my career, almost all of us were former military. This is not the case now and there are far more females hired now and females generally have less interest in firearms or high performance driving. Don't even get me started on the voters we have now.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Depends on the state laws. In Texas it reads something like if you KNOWINGLY carry in an off limits place you are breaking the law. If you can show that you did not know the gun was in your bag and it was a mistake you can get it dropped. Of course that is very subjective but it gives you more of a chance than in a state that doesn't have that clause.

There is a HUGE difference in not knowing a gun is in your bag and forgetting the gun is in your bag. Not knowing = someone else put the gun there without your knowledge. Forgetting = I knowingly and intentionally put the gun in my bag.

 

[Pilot]

Depends on the state laws. In Texas it reads something like if you KNOWINGLY carry in an off limits place you are breaking the law. If you can show that you did not know the gun was in your bag and it was a mistake you can get it dropped. Of course that is very subjective but it gives you more of a chance than in a state that doesn't have that clause.

Sorry, should have clarified my statement. This occured in Philadelphia so PA state law is what I was referencing. Still lots of room for interpretation, and I don't knwo what will happen if she is convicted of a Summary Offense, which is actually below a Misdemeanor.

 

[Husker_Fan]

The officer just followed procedure.

First, a 442 is a "black" gun, therefore, it is a Glock. Second, there was no magazine, so it was unloaded. Third, like other Glocks, you pull the trigger to disassemble. Not his fault, really.

 

[skywalkrNCSU]

There is a HUGE difference in not knowing a gun is in your bag and forgetting the gun is in your bag. Not knowing = someone else put the gun there without your knowledge. Forgetting = I knowingly and intentionally put the gun in my bag.

You may have intentionally put it in your bag but you did not knowingly carry it into a restricted area. This happened in Texas to someone rather important, important enough to be in the news a while back, and charges were dropped because it was shown he didn't purposefully bring his gun into a restricted area. Not that it truly matters since this happened in PA and not TX.

 

[Pilot]

Not his fault, really.

It was a female officer. Quotas, you know.

 

[gfanikf]

The "airport" police officer is what the report says. Is this a "real" LEO? Or some minimum wage security guard? I hesitate to think any person could get through the basic police training and not be able to unload a DAO revolver without pulling the trigger.

I don't work in law enforcement, but several of my family members do. Even the slow guys on the force can unload a gun. There is a minimum level of competence.

My guess is that it wasn't a regular officer.

No it was a member of the PPD.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Gun-Goes-Off-at-Philly-International-Airport-170903511.html

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[gfanikf]

Sorry, should have clarified my statement. This occured in Philadelphia so PA state law is what I was referencing. Still lots of room for interpretation, and I don't knwo what will happen if she is convicted of a Summary Offense, which is actually below a Misdemeanor.

The county that issued it has to decide if they want to pull it. If its not Philly and the NBC article seems to indicate it, by and large they never do.

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[Drail]

These people NEED desperately to be trained better. If a loaded gun is to be confiscated from a subject it needs to be immediately secured, but the idea that you must immediately unload it is the problem. It should be taken to a safe area to clear and tag it. The lobby/boarding area of an airport is not a safe area to fumble with a gun you don't understand. It would be safer zipped up in her bag than to start coonfingering it and waving it wround the airport. Either spend the time and money to train these folks or teach them to do the same thing the NRA teaches children to do if they find a loaded gun. Don't touch it. Tell an adult. Because if you don't know how it works really bad stuff can happen. On all of the cop shows on TV you'll see an LEO attempting to clear a gun while fumbling with every single lever or button with their finger on the trigger and waving it around at every person in the area while their partners crowd in and offer suggestions. Is gun. Is dangerous.

 

[Owen Sparks]

This is believable.

I posted a while back about two young cops at the local range who were fascinated by my .357. They had never fired a revolver and I had to show them how to load it and how to use a double action trigger.

 

[razorback2003]

Only Philly police are qualified to operate and carry a dangerous firearm.

 

[Pilot]

The county that issued it has to decide if they want to pull it. If its not Philly and the NBC article seems to indicate it, by and large they never do.

It is a Chester County permit, as she lives in West Chester. (Western suburb of Philly). I also believe I read the police took the permit.

 

[gfanikf]

It is a Chester County permit, as she lives in West Chester. (Western suburb of Philly). I also believe I read the police took the permit.

Hmm, nah I doubt Chester will pull it. I know Bucks County wouldn't. Even if PPD took it, Chester will just print out another. One article quoted PPD as saying it's up to her county to decide if she gets the gun back...she will.

 

[Zoogster]

holdencm9 said:

Not sure how you forget you have a GUN in your purse when going to the AIRPORT.

They could more easily forget a gun than most of the public.

Going to the airport is routine, they spend most of their hours awake in an airport or a plane.
They have long hours sometimes and schedules that change, leaving them tired and less attentive.
They are often carrying luggage or large purse with whatever might be needed within 24 hours.
Because carrying luggage or such items in a large purse is an everyday thing, they are going to have plenty of days they don't unpack it or fully unpack it.
If they carry a firearm on their off time as well, it is almost a matter of time before they make that mistake of bringing it into the airport.

All they have to do is forget thier gun one day and it goes to work with them.




The only reason it is newsworthy is because the officer involved shot the thing in the airport.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Honestly I think it's less stupid (on the flight attendant's behalf) than the rest of us think.

Sure, when I fly, I am anal about checking anything that goes past the TSA checkpoint to remove knives, ammunition, guns, fluids, etc. I don't fly more than once every couple years. But for someone who flies every day multiple times as their job? I can see how you'd be in a hurry to get to work one day and forget.

 

[tdstout]

Not sure how you forget you have a GUN in your purse when going to the AIRPORT

I've forgotten that I had a knife in my pocket while going through metal detectors a couple of times. If I have clothes on, I have a knife. Maybe that's how she is with a gun.

 

[mdauben]

Not sure how you forget you have a GUN in your purse when going to the AIRPORT.

I have more than once realized at the last minute that I was walking up to security with a knife in my pocket so it does not seem out the the range of possiblity that someone might forget they are carrying a gun, too, especially one off-body like in a purse.

Also not sure how you have a ND with a DA revolver.

Now that takes genius-level stupidity.

 

[Warp]

I'm sorry but I don't see how a revolver is harder to have a N/D with than a safety less auto.

Long, heavy trigger. You don't just accidentally pull that trigger...it's outright negligent.

No stupidity/confusion over it being unloaded because the magazine is out.

No stupidity/false sense of security because "the safety is on"

An ND with a double action revolver should be grounds for immediate firing from a law enforcement position.

 

[coolluke01]

Long, heavy trigger. You don't just accidentally pull that trigger...it's outright negligent.

You are stating the difference between a ND and AD. You don't accidentally commit an ND. I don't care how long the trigger pull is, when you decide to pull it the end result is the same. So a short pull and a long pull are equally as likely to have a ND. AD is a different story, and not the way you may think. Thumb slipping while lowering the hammer on a loaded cylinder is a common way to commit an AD.

No stupidity/false sense of security because "the safety is on"

My statement was made with that regard.

N/D with than a safety less auto.

An ND with a double action revolver should be grounds for immediate firing from a law enforcement position.

I hardly see how a simiauto ND wouldn't be due the same level of harsh treatment.

 

[Old Fuff]

An ND with a double action revolver should be grounds for immediate firing from a law enforcement position.

One time I got into a conversation with several "new generation" police officers that had just started on the job.

None knew zip about revolvers, as all of their training had been on a particular pistol.

All were interested in learning because they didn't want to ruin they're prospects before they got started by doing something stupid.

Maybe what is needed is a book or video, entitled Officers Guide to Unfamiliar Handguns.

Ya' know, with the kind of schools we have today a student can go through from K-12> Community College> and College/University without being allowed to so much as think anything constructive about handguns.

 

[Warp]

You are stating the difference between a ND and AD. You don't accidentally commit an ND. I don't care how long the trigger pull is, when you decide to pull it the end result is the same. So a short pull and a long pull are equally as likely to have a ND. AD is a different story, and not the way you may think. Thumb slipping while lowering the hammer on a loaded cylinder is a common way to commit an AD.

I disagree.

I believe you can have an ND without choosing to pull the trigger. If you violate rule #3 and simply have your finger in the trigger guard, and then pull the trigger unintentionally because your hand sympathetically clinched while you were catching something with your other hand (just an example), you have an ND where you did not consciously choose to pull the trigger. This kind of thing is much less likely with a long and heavy double action trigger pull than many/most semi autos.

Also, there should have been absolutely no reason whatsoever for the hammer to be pulled back/cocked in this instance, and I was under the impression the revolver in question was double action only with no hammer to pull back anyway

 

[coolluke01]

I would agree in part. I would take that statement one step further and say that there are no AD's.
But this is not the common interpretation of AD and ND.

You situation wouldn't be considered a ND in most all situations. I would agree it is, but that's not a commonly held view, I don't think.

Also, there should have been absolutely no reason whatsoever for the hammer to be pulled back/cocked in this instance

LOL and there was a reason for pulling the trigger? I'm agreeing with you.

If that gun was double action only I missed that.

 

[Ignition Override]

At least a few FFDOs have left their gun boxes either in a hotel room when checking out, the hotel shuttle, or in the cockpit when 'routinely' leaving for a bite to eat. They have combination locks, but can you imagine the "urgency" when they realized it ?
Not just the Federal Officer badge and license, but a paycheck (to punish) or entire career can be at stake.

All normal routines on the ground, which are ingrained after many years must be totally changed, to focus on carrying that 'pack' with you at all times-with almost no exception.

At the main (west) DTW terminal, they closed all nearby ground traffic for about fifteen minutes into both south ramp taxiways several years ago when a pilot's HK 'box' was found some distance from the plane, left on the ramp.