FN 5.7x28mm Pistol with SS197 V-MAX Ammunition

[wbond]

40 gr Hornady V-Max JHP gives 1700 fps from the FN 5.7 pistol.

The FN 5.7 holds 20 rounds. Why not more? They're skinny enough for more aren't they?

I'm not going to say that I think the 5.7 pistol competes with larger caliber handguns because I don't think it does. However, it does blow the doors off a .22 Mag and may compare well with other light weights.

I've several times heard people say that the FN 5.7 is just a glorified .22M with a higher price and the same ballistic performance. Not so. The FN 5.7 pistol gives almost the same ballistics as a .22 Mag rifle.

i.e. - the FN 5.7 is way hotter as a pistol round than any .22 Mag, but a 5.7 pistol isn't quite as potent as a .22 Mag rifle, in my opinion based on ballistic data. This is based on available 5.7 ammo that I can legally buy.

While I don't claim or expect a FN 5.7 handgun can compete with the larger handguns (9mm and up), I do think it beats a .22 Mag handgun and compares well to a .32 ACP. Probably beats the .32 ACP.

I wonder how the 5.7 pistol would compare to the .380 ACP or .32 Magnum? Anyone have an opinion on that?

Remember, I've got arthritis and I'm recoil sensitive. The 5.7 pistol is not a powerhouse, in my opinion, but it may be the ideal handgun for me.

Currently I shoot a .22 Mag 4" revolver when arthritis bad, .32 ACP when arthritis medium, and .380 ACP or .32 Mag Ruger when arthritis better.

So I'm wondering how the FN 5.7 pistol compares to the .22M, .32 ACP, .380, and .32 Mag for one shot stop potential.

The FN5.7 pistol certainly holds a lot more ammo than those others (20 rounds).

Any advice appreciated.

 

[Medusa]

Well, the FN does compare well with 9 mm and .45 pistols, as the round isn't less effective, whatever the traditionalists say. Of course, the gun was made with SS190 catridge, so this combination is most effective. Once I calculated that it is in same energy class with the beforementioned 2 guns and has higher energy density (plus the added bonus of lesser collateral risks, as bullets mostly stay in body). Haven't heard any real bad experience with it (only bad comments from people who mostly doesn't have hold the gun, less shot it). You could always try to browse the FiveseveN forum http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/index.php

Short: can't go wrong with the gun, and can't feel underpowered with it.

 

[M2 Carbine]

abond,
The FN is a fairly large pistol. Recoil wouldn't be a problem with your arthritis but how about the size?

I own the pistol and I'm still not sure what to make of it.
The factory JHP bullet is surprising (don't remember the number).
I shot a gallon water jug. The damage to the jug was fairly impressive. The bullet keyholed out the back. It keyholed through the front of the box of rags I use to catch the bullets. This box of rags easily stops defense loaded 45, 9mm, etc. The 5.7x28 went clean through the box.
I did manage to recover one bullet. It appeared that it tried to go through the box keyholed instead of tumbling. The bullet was more or less in it's original shape.

The factory 40 grain Hornady load blows up in the water jug.
I thought that it might be a good defense load but now I'm not sure because it might not penetrate well.

I also shot some Remington 40 grain JSP "Hornet" bullets. I loaded them to 1,590 fps. I guess due to their heavy jacket they did not expand but keyholed out the back of the jug and were trapped in the box.

With the proper round, IMO the round will far out preform the 32-38 special but I'm not ready to give up my 45 yet.

I am using it for a night time walking around gun.

 

[Jim Watson]

I guess the FN is a reasonable choice if shooting something bigger hurts. After a dozen or so .22 softpoints, an assailant will probably get the idea he is not welcome.

But why try to tune all those odd calibres to the state of your arthritis?
I think I'd just shoot .22 lr and enjoy.

 

[taliv]

the secret service doesn't seem to have a concern with it's stopping power and it has almost no recoil, so followup shots are like shooting 22lr (which is not at all like followup shots shooting 45acp or 357 or some other reputable cartridge)

 

[wbond]

Does anyone make a 5.7x28 Revolver?

I'd think Taurus would, but they don't.

 

[wbond]

To M2 Carbine:

You're right, the FN 5.7 handgun is rather long. Light at 22 oz, but long. This according to a review I just read. I still like the cartridge, or at least the idea of it, but how would I ever conceal an auto with a barrel almost 5" long?

I've been experimenting with deep concealment and find that I can hide a 4" barrel revolver in my coat pocket. The trick here is to get one of those packable raincoats. It has a LARGE front chest pocket for packing the entire coat into the pocket. It swallows a 4" revolver with ease. However, 25 oz is the weight limit for comfort and a decent coat hang. My Taurus 4" is a .22 Mag and weighs only 25 oz. That's what got me thinking, gee it'd be nice to have a little longer case on the .22 Mag since the cylinder is 1/4" longer than the round. Then I started looking into hotter .22s.

From a shooting and SD point of view (for a guy with arthritis), the FN 5.7 sounds perfect, other than how would I conceal it? What other guns are made for the FN 5.7 cartridge? Is a .22 Hornat the same cartridge? Can the hornet rounds be shot in an FN 5.7? I'm confused about these things from your post. Please elaborate.

Everyone has their own opinions about its stopping potential. From what I've read and heard from reviews and at High Road, it should be at least as good or better than a .380 or .38 Spl. That's awesome considering the lack of recoil and 20+1 rounds. I'd even be happy about it beating a .32 ACP since that's my usually carry gun.

That's the nice thing about having low standards for stopping potential. I'm easy to please.

 

[wbond]

To Jim Watson:

I appreciate your reply. However, I think the other people's posts have already answered your question several times over.

However, I'll add the following:

I think a .22 LR is very wimpy from a handgun for SD.

However, I do have some confidence in .22 Magnum revolvers. A local cop friend of mine was just the other day telling me that the .22 Mag revolver is much better for SD than people think it, as long as the barrel is at least 3" (4" better yet). He said the .22 Mag is the most underrated, underestimated round there is. This because .22 Mag gives good penetration and some expansion (from a 4" barrel).

That said, a .22 Mag would be even better with a longer case and more powder behind it for more velocity, and the recoil would still be nil. Also, it'd be nice if it were centerfire. Well guess what? That's exactly what the FN 5.7x28 cartridge is. To bad the FN 5.7 pistol has a 5" barrel though. I could conceal it much easier with a 4" barrel.

I could make do with my .32 ACP Firestorm and .22 Mag, but I'd like a bit more poop from my guns. I can shoot .380 on a limited basis when my arthritis is better (same with .32 Mag), but often my arthritis is worse like right now. When worse I have to carry the .22 Mag.

The 5.7x28 would be a step above any of my other guns in stopping potential without enough recoil to mention. I could then use the same gun no matter how I'm feeling and have more stopping potential. That is a worthwhile goal. Also, like everyone else, I'm having fun learning about things and exploring.

Thanks

 

[AJ Dual]

Bottle-neck and cartridges with extreme tapers do not work well in revolvers.

There's too much back thrust. When the cartridge fires in the chamber, it's too much like squeezing a watermellon seed between your fingers.

When straight-wall cartriges, or at those with mild tapers expand as they're fired, they grip the sides of the chamber, which helps hold them in place. When a tapered or bottle-neck cartrige expands, the slope of the shoulder, or the taper, acts like a ramp, forcing it out of the chamber. Then, the back of the frame is all that's stopping the cartrige from leaving the revolver, and it runs the risk of battering the frame, or at least binding up and preventing free rotation of the cylinder for the next shot.

The only tapered and shouldered revolver cartrige that attained any popularity at all was the .22 Jet, and even then it was discontinued, both due to problems and a lack of popularity.

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p22rj.html

The 5.7 does have straight sides on it's case long enough that probably would provide enough grip to crab cylinder walls in a revolver, but it also has a pretty severely rebated auto-style rim. That would require moon-clips, and then when you figure in lost FPS to the cylinder gap, and a short barrel, .22 WMR is probably a better choice for a snubbie.

 

[M2 Carbine]

wbond,
I'd say if you can conceal a full size 1911 you could conceal a FN 5.7.
The gun is roughly 8 inches long, 6 inches high and 1 1/4 inches wide.

As far as I know the 5.7x28 is only used in the FN 5.7 and FN P90.

If the round becomes more popular I suspect other guns will be made for it.

I'd like to see a small maybe single stack pistol and a conventional Carbine made for it.

All defense applications aside, the round is interesting and easy and cheap to reload.

 

[Jim Watson]

What other guns are made for the FN 5.7 cartridge? Is a .22 Hornat the same cartridge? Can the hornet rounds be shot in an FN 5.7? I'm confused about these things from your post. Please elaborate.


Not MY post, but the 5.7 FN is NOT the same as the 1920s vintage .22 Hornet, just that there is some similarity in ballistics. Differences not in favor of FN.

A .22 Hornet 10" Contender will get a 40 grain bullet up to 2400 fps while the 5.7 is said to do 1700 with the V-Max. But the Contender is a single shot.
The old .22 Harvey Kay-Chuk, a .22 Hornet reformed to get it into a revolver would shoot a 37 grain hollowpoint 1800 fps.

The only other gun in 5.7 that I know of is the P90 SMG - PS90 carbine.


I'd check ammunition availability and price before I got committed. At one time it was scarce and expensive. Current price around $20/50 which is not bad for high grade pistol ammo, but availability is poor. There is some on Auction Arms for "buy it now" of $600/1000

 

[wbond]

To Jim Watson:

Quote of Watson: The old .22 Harvey Kay-Chuk, a .22 Hornet reformed to get it into a revolver would shoot a 37 grain hollowpoint 1800 fps.

Reply from Wbond: That sounds really cool. Who made that revolver and when? Is that revolver or ammo still available?

As for 5.7 Ammo, I've found several online places that have it in stock.

 

[Jim Watson]

The Kay-Chuk was never a factory gun or cartridge.
Take a S&W K22, convert to centerfire, rechamber to take a K-Hornet (improved with steep shoulder and little taper) shortened .050" and loaded with semi-pointed bullets to give an OAL that would go in the LR cylinder.
Handload to guidelines by Jim Harvey and Sisk (maker of the 37 grain bullet.)
Developed in 1956 and offered as gunsmithing conversions for some years. I have seen maybe two or three real Lakeville Arms conversions offered for sale over the years. Unlike the .22 Remington Jet (.22 S&W Magnum) the Kay-Chuk worked with normal loading and shooting practice.

At one time the old Christy Gunworks made Colt SAA barrels and cylinders for .218 Bee which is a little more powerful than .22 Hornet and also a little shorter to fit a revolver cylinder without modification.

 

[asknight]

I daresay that the .17HMR CCI FMJ ammo will likely penetrate more than the 5.7x28 VMAX varminters which usually disintegrate on impact. Now we just have to petition Browning, Sig, or Ruger to re-design one of their popular rimfire autoloaders to .17HMR. :banghead:

Poor boy's version of the 5.7x28, eh?

Manufacturers if you're listening, this idea is provided to you for free. The next one may not be so.

 

[Wesker]

The FiveseveN is designed to defeat body armor. Civilian loads will penetrate 32 layers of kevlar. Military/LEO rounds can penetrate up to 64 layers. Where are you getting your balistic facts from?

 

[asknight]

Wesker, if your comment was for me, I must raise a strong point.

Considering that the SS-197 is a Hornady 40 grain VMAX, and out of a .223 @ 3200fps will not reliably punch through three layers of defense kevlar, I must question where you are getting your balistic[sic] facts from?

 

[wbond]

Hey fellas. About the punching through ballistic vests discussion...

You can discuss whatever you want. However, my interest in the 5.7 pistol is not for shooting through ballistic vests.

I'm only interested in how the 40 gr Hornady V-Max performs on an attacker who is NOT wearing a bullet resistant vest.

 

[Wesker]

It will be 0 knock down power and hellacious over-penetration. Not a good choice for personal defence.

 

[asknight]

The VMAX certainly will not overpenetrate. It will disintegrate on impact and not penetrate deeply enough. Think of what the 40gr VMAX does on coyotes, etc. One heck of an entrance wound, but only a couple of inches deep. More of a threat mutilator than it is a threat stopper.

The FiveseveN indeed was designed to defeat body armor with SS190 ammunition, but none of us are allowed to purchase that ammunition in which the pistol was designed for. Not even the SS192 that the Brady Campaign said would pierce armor, but hasn't been tested by the BATFE or any other organization The Brady-appeasing workaround was developed utilizing .224" 40 grain Hornady VMAX bullets. The FiveseveN system is nothing more than a varmint plinking machine with those bullets. I'll stick to 9mm, .40, .45ACP for personal defense.

The SS190 Armor Piercing ammunition only gives 10 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin from the carbine, and considerably less from the pistol. The current FBI requirements are 12 inches of penetration for duty. So, in essence, the FiveseveN won't even meet their requirements even with AP ammunition. The comment about 32 and 64 layers of defense kevlar is pure hogwash. The SS190 will penetrate up to 48 individual micro-thin layers, but only at 200 meters. Any closer and the bullet disintegrates without penetrating. You really think the 5.7x28 is intended as a 200 meter defense weapon? The civilian ammo (40gr VMAX), as I said, will not reliably penetrate more than three layers at that distance from a .223 @ 3200fps muzzle velocity.

Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28_mm#Overview before you utilize the FiveseveN for personal defense.

I must ask again, what does the .17HMR with FMJ ammo lack that the 5.7x28 with soft varmint bullets doesn't? The 5.7x28 SS192 is a 28gr hollowpoint @ 2300fps while the CCI .17HMR is a 20gr FMJ @ ~2200fps depending on barrel length. The numbers tell me that they will penetrate similarly. The SS192 was pulled from the market by FN after the Brady Campaign declared it was AP as was the SS190. Is the .17 next? The .17 would be a much more affordable platform to practice on, that's a certainty.

 

[Jim Watson]

1. Armor piercing handgun ammunition is defined by bullet material, not performance on Kevlar samples. It is the hard core of the military bullet that lets them ban it.

2. What .17 HMR handgun platform would you recommend for self defense?

3. Wbond says he is a special medical case. If he has arthrithis so bad that he cannot fire a conventional service pistol LITERALLY to save his life, there aren't many other choices.

 

[asknight]

Jim, in my first post in this thread (#15) I said

Now we just have to petition Browning, Sig, or Ruger to re-design one of their popular rimfire autoloaders to .17HMR.

Poor boy's version of the 5.7x28, eh?

The SS192 is an aluminum cored, 28gr hollowpoint and has never been banned by the BATFE. It was merely spoken out against by the Brady Campaign so FN retracted it from the market by their own merit. It's not banned, but unobtainable by the regular joe. The hard core won't get a bullet banned if it's not "designed and tested" as AP. Look at the new .416 Barrett as an example. It's CA legal, and shoots a 400 grain solid brass bullet. AP? Not defined and tested as such, but of course it will penetrate with the best of them.

I never once advocated the .17HMR for defense, just as I didn't the 5.7x28. I'm strictly making comparisons between those two cartridges, which are apparently more similar than you credit them. That said, for what the civilian can use the 5.7x28 and SS196/7 ammo for (plinking, varminting), the .17HMR FMJ will do the same thing, likely with better penetration... if you do have to use it for defense, and a lot cheaper to boot. That is, if we had a decent .17HMR semi-auto pistol.

For wbond's case, I recommend a full sized service 9mm. The recoil isn't that bad, certainly less than hot .380s in a subcompact. Too, if he genuinely has to use it in a life saving event, then he's not likely going to notice arthritic pain anyway due to adrenaline. Even so, if his arthritis aches him for weeks after having to use it, at least he will be alive to notice it.

 

[wbond]

I really like the round and the gun, except for the length and size of it.

I think the FN 5.7 pistol would be a major pain to conceal. I didn't know the FN 5.7 pistol was so long when I started this.

I'm now looking at Taurus Milleniums in .32, .380, and 9mm.

As for recoil, I have to be able to handle it well enough to practice regularly because practice is crucial to markmenship and confidence. I also have to be able to carry the gun regularly, which means it can't be to big or heavy. i.e. - service size-weight guns are tough to carry concealed.

I really don't want a full size service anything because they're too miserable to conceal and carry.

I do like my Firestorm .32 and .380 a lot, but the darned beaver tail digs me in the belly very hard when I conceal it. The gun writers all rave about the oversized beaver tail. I want to cut mine off. I don't think my skinny hands would ever get bit. The Taurus Milleniums don't have a beavertail at all, which is attractive.

Thanks everyone very much for your 5.7 input.

Please feel free to continue to discuss the 5.7 pistol, if you want to. However, I'm done with this subject. Thanks to you guys I now know it's not for me. If someone ever makes a bit smaller (1" shorter) 5.7 pistol, then I'm very interested.

 

[Jim Watson]

asknight

Sorry I missed your earlier remark on having a major manufacturer redesign a .22LR to .17 HMR. But I can't see how that would be any easier than making a .22 WMR auto and you know how many of those there are around.
There are some .17 Mach II pistols, 17 grains at 2100 fps.

I did not know that FN SS192 had an aluminum core; thought the gimmick was a tungsten core. As you say, political pressure can be as effective as regulation and law. Just try to buy a box of Black Talons.

Hard core bullets are legally defined as armor piercing for HANDGUNS. Bronze elephant gun bullets do not signify. But when Olympic Arms built up some prototype AR "pistols" in 7.62x39, that gave the antis the leverage to stop importation of cheap steel core Commie surplus ammunition.

Wbond,

Try to lay hands on a Kahr K9 to shoot. Recoil operation and a comfortable grip shape make its FELT recoil LESS than a blowback .380 like Walther PP.

 

[panzermk2]

ASKNIGHT wow Your wrong on every piont here are some facts

First if your going to tell us how the 5.7 performs get your ammo descriptions correct this chart should help

Info Tables for the 5.7x28mm Ammunition


Muzzle velocity:

|---------------P90-------|----------PS90---------|------FiveseveN----|

SS90 |-----(2800 fps)----------------------------------------------------|
SS190 |----(2350 fps)-----------(2550 fps)-------------(2100 fps)-----|
L191 |-----(2350 fps)-----------(2550 fps)-------------(2100 fps)-----|
SS192 |----(2300 fps)-----------(2500 fps)-------------(2050 fps)-----|
SB193 |----(1000 fps)-----------(1150 fps)-------------(800 fps)------|
T194 |-----(2300 fps)-----------(2500 fps)-------------(2050 fps)-----|
SS195 |----(2300 fps)-----------(2500 fps)-------------(2050 fps)-----|
SS196 |----(1800 fps)-----------(1950 fps)-------------(1600 fps)-----|
SS197 |----(1950 fps)-----------(2100 fps)-------------(1700 fps)-----|






Projectile weight:

SS90 |------------------23 grains (1.49 grams)------------|
SS190 |-----------------32 grains (2.09 grams)------------|
L191 |------------------32 grains (2.09 grams)------------|
SS192 |-----------------28 grains (1.81 grams)------------|
SB193 |-----------------55 grains (3.55 grams)------------|
T194 |------------------28 grains (1.81 grams)------------|
SS195 |-----------------28 grains (1.81 grams)------------|
SS196 |-----------------40 grains (2.58 grams)------------|
SS197 |-----------------40 grains (2.58 grams)------------|






Muzzle energy:

|---------------P90-------|----------PS90---------|------FiveseveN----|

SS90 |-----(400 ft. lbs)--------------------------------------------------|
SS190 |----(390 ft. lbs)---------(460 ft. lbs)------------(315 ft. lbs)---|
L191 |-----(390 ft. lbs)---------(460 ft. lbs)------------(315 ft. lbs)---|
SS192 |----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SB193 |----(120 ft. lbs)---------(160 ft. lbs)------------(80 ft. lbs)----|
T194 |-----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SS195 |----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SS196 |----(290 ft. lbs)---------(340 ft. lbs)------------(230 ft. lbs)---|
SS197 |----(340 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(255 ft. lbs)---|






Average penetration depth in 10% ballistic gelatin:

|---------------P90-------|---------PS90---------|-----FiveseveN----|

SS90 |----(10 inches)-------------------------------------------------|
SS190 |---(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----|
L191 |----(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----|
SS192 |---(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----|
SB193 |----------------------------------------------------------------|
T194 |----(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----|
SS195 |---(12 inches)----------------------------------(9 inches)----|
SS196 |----------------------------------------------------------------|
SS197 |-------------------------------------------------(10 inches)---|






Projectile type/behavior:

SS90 |----------------FMJ, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------|
SS190 |---------------FMJ, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------|
L191 |----------------Tracer FMJ, Tumbles (no deformation)-----|
SS192 |---------------JHP, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------|
SB193 |---------------Subsonic FMJBT (Sierra Game King)--------|
T194 |----------------JHP, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------|
SS195 |---------------JHP, Tumbles (no deformation)-------------|
SS196 |---------------V-MAX, Expands with fragmentation--------|
SS197 |---------------V-MAX, Expands with fragmentation--------|





Identification:

SS90 |----------------(Plain, pointed tip)------------------------|
SS190 |---------------(Plain, black, or black-on-white tip)------|
L191 |----------------(Red or red-on-black tip)------------------|
SS192 |---------------(Plain hollow tip)--------------------------|
SB193 |---------------(White tip)---------------------------------|
T194 |----------------(Green tip)---------------------------------|
SS195 |---------------(Plain hollow tip)--------------------------|
SS196 |---------------(Red-tipped V-MAX)-----------------------|
SS197 |---------------(Blue-tipped V-MAX)----------------------|





Abbreviations:

SS190AP |-----------------(Armor Piercing)------------------|
SS195LF |-----------------(Lead Free)------------------------|
SS196SR |-----------------(Sporting Round)------------------|
SS197SR |-----------------(Sporting Round)------------------|

 

[panzermk2]

Comparison of the 5.7x28mm and .22 WMR (Rifles):

|------------------Weight/Velocity-----------|----------Energy----------|--------Barrel Length----|

SS190 |---------(32 gr @ 2550 fps)----------|--------(460 ft. lbs)------|---------(16 inches)------|
SS195 |---------(28 gr @ 2500 fps)----------|--------(390 ft. lbs)------|---------(16 inches)------|
SS197 |---------(40 gr @ 2100 fps)----------|--------(390 ft. lbs)------|---------(16 inches)------|
22WMR |--------(40 gr @ 1900 fps)----------|--------(320 ft. lbs)------|---------(24 inches)------|





Comparison of the 5.7x28mm and .22 WMR (Pistols):

|------------------Weight/Velocity-----------|----------Energy----------|-------Barrel Length----|

SS190 |---------(32 gr @ 2100 fps)----------|--------(315 ft. lbs)------|---------(5 inches)------|
SS195 |---------(28 gr @ 2050 fps)----------|--------(260 ft. lbs)------|---------(5 inches)------|
SS197 |---------(40 gr @ 1700 fps)----------|--------(255 ft. lbs)------|---------(5 inches)------|
22WMR |--------(40 gr @ 1450 fps)----------|--------(190 ft. lbs)------|---------(4 inches)------|




As seen in the above comparison, the 5.7x28mm is ballistically very far ahead of the .22 WMR despite often being compared to it by skeptics. I calculated the muzzle energies based on the bullet weights and velocities above, using the handy tool in THIS LINK. As for the velocity of the SS190, SS191, SS192, and SS195 out of the Five-seveN pistol, I have heard individual chronographed figures ranging from less than 2000 fps to 2250+ fps, and thus decided to list it in between those at 2100 fps for SS190/SS191, and 2050 fps for SS192/SS195, since they generally chronograph lower than the SS190. Take note that the L191 is also sometimes referred to as the "SS191". Regarding visible differences between the SS192 and SS195, the latter has a silver-colored primer while the former does not. I have recently added the SS90 to the tables -- you can tell it from the SS190 by the 2.7mm longer (and pointier) projectile. Please note that the SS90 figures out of the Five-seveN and PS90 are not given because the SS90 was discontinued in 1994 (before the introduction of the two guns), so I have no way of obtaining figures for either gun. I hope this was helpful.