FN 5.7x28mm Pistol with SS197 V-MAX Ammunition

[panzermk2]

The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber approved for importation as a sporting firearm.

The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-

a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or


a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.

According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.

FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States.

FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition

SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS191/L191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)
SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)
10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)
10700005 Dummy

Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm. Items
NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.


Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is
required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors. A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only. [18 U. S. C. 921( a)( 17) and 922( b)( 5), 27 CFR 178.11]

All 5.7x28mm restricted ammunition, SS190, SS191/L191, and SB193 (armor piercing) is sold only to law enforcement and military agencies. This ammunition is only released and shipped from a U.S. Customs-controlled bonded warehouse (CBW) upon BATFE and U.S. Customs approval.

The ammunition sold to law enforcement and military agencies is tax exempt, and unlawful sale or disposal of the ammunition would be a violation of federal law.

DML

 

[panzermk2]

I know some here were wondering how the SS192 gel penetration would compare to the SS190, and this is the first gelatin testing with SS192 that I know of..

"In testing in bare gelatin it averages 8-8.7 inches of penetration, in testing using 4 layer 14oz denim it averages 9.3 - 9.7 inches"

This info comes from David Difabio of Ammolab. I didn't find the post on Ammolab, but on another message board. Average human torso thickness is 9.4 inches. I will leave you to decide whether 8 to 10 inches is inadequate, adequate, or optimal, given the low risk of overpenetration that it would give. Difabio states that the wound channel created is comparable in size to a 9mm FMJ but of course he has long been known as being critical of the 5.7.



-DmL

 

[panzermk2]

this is what 27 SS192's look like after a LII and then full yaw in phone books
Note the tips are folded over from sideways passage thought the target after the vest.




Here are SS195 and SS197 Gel tests

The ruler is 6 inches or 15 centimeters. Both rounds in the pics were fired out of the Five-seveN pistol. Testing was done from a distance of 13 ft. It's interesting that SS197 outpenetrated SS195. Appears that yawing/tumbling inhibits penetration quite a bit. The SS195 ended up penetrating to 9 inches, while the SS197 penetrated to 10.5 inches.





Thank you for the testing and photos, DSE!

 

[asknight]

panzermk2, respectfully, it appears that you've just explained the same exact thing I did. Instead you used ~27 paragraphs where I used ~7-8.

I also must thank you for quoting almost verbatim the link I posted for reference on this caliber, in which I utilized in helping form my opinion of the round.

Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28_mm#Overview before you utilize the FiveseveN for personal defense.

OTOH, I quoted my own real world experience utilizing the identical bullet (40gr Hornady VMAX) fired from a .223 @ 3200fps and it's performance @ 200 yards. Your performance from a 4" pistol barrel is not going to exceed the performance of the same bullet from a rifle at ~1100fps faster.

Also, I never brought .22WMR into the discussion, as it's not comparable to the 5.7x28 nor the .17HMR ballistics in any fashion. The .17HMR FMJ has a genuine gilding metal jacket. Not a copper wash like popular .22 cal rimfire rounds.

At any rate, I will continue to stand my ground that the .17HMR FMJ will penetrate just as well as the 5.7x28 40gr Hornady VMAX for plinking purposes @ $0.18 per round rather than $0.56. If you choose to use either caliber for personal defense, I wish you the best but I believe we won't see you again until we meet on the other side.

My stance is this: As much as we whine and moan about issuing our guys in the sandbox a varmint caliber rifle to defend life and liberty, here you are advocating the same caliber in a handgun for the defense of the homeland in the hands of citizens? We've become a nation of wussies.

 

[M2 Carbine]

asknight
OTOH, I quoted my own real world experience utilizing the identical bullet (40gr Hornady VMAX) fired from a .223 @ 3200fps and it's performance @ 200 yards. Your performance from a 4" pistol barrel is not going to exceed the performance of the same bullet from a rifle at ~1100fps faster.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

The only "real world experience" that's revelent to the subject "FN 5.7x28mm Pistol with SS197 V-MAX Ammunition" is experience with that pistol and round.

What is your "real world experience" with the FN 5.7 and the SS197 round?

 

[grendelbane]

Yesterday, I fired a FiveseveN for the first time, thus qualifying me for guru status.

I found it to be very accurate, reliable, flat shooting, and controllable.

I would still prefer one of my Gov't models, or SIG P229/P239s. However, I understand the arthritis problem. Last year, I injured my hand, and had to experiment to find a pistol that did not hurt to fire.

I recovered, but I still remember the pain of .38 wadcutters out of a K-frame being too much for me. Oddly, my Gov't model .45s werent that bad, and I eventually settled on a .38 Super loaded with Winchester Silver Tips.

I would think that the fiveseveN pistol would serve some one with arthritis quite well. It might be just a little bulky to conceal, but I CCW Gov't models and the lighter weight would work quite well.

Some people bash the terminal effectiveness of the 5.7 cartridge. Given the limits of the discussion, I should think it would serve fairly well.

I would choose the 5.7 over a conventional pistol loaded with 9mm ball.

 

[asknight]

M2 carbine, I've shot 100 rounds through a FiveseveN. I wasn't going to pay more than $60 to demo a pistol (price of the two boxes of ammo). I was not impressed and consider it strictly a plinker. It has nothing more than the explosiveness of the high speed varmint bullets. There is not enough penetration in both wet telephone books or soft pine bark to give me security in using it as a defensive piece. The "wound" on the soaked telephone books was ~1.5 inches deep and 3" in diameter. That's a bloody surface wound in a self defense scenario, and not a threat stopping wound.

This demo came about after a local dealer in which I do a considerable amount of business received his first FiveseveN and decided to keep it for himself. A few of his employees talked him into letting all of us get together to try it out. He was sure he would sell each of us one after letting us try it. Truth is, none of us bought one, but he did get a free break-in. I can buy two 1911's suitable for personal defense and more than a case of ammo for just the price of the plastic pistol.

 

[748]

I didn't like the SS197 ammo and other 40gr bullets I reloaded as much as the SS195 and the 33gr Speer TNT hollow point.
I CC the 5.7 because it is my lightest smallest gun. I don't use factory ammo for CCW, I loaded up some 40gr ballistic silvertips.
Because when fired into some thing soft the bullets dose some thing that reminds me of the old black tallons.
I would like to load up some 55gr FMJ-BT's but I'm out and do up some SS109's but I just moved and haven't found them yet.

 

[panzermk2]

asknight

The 5.7 was created in the first place to replace the 9mm fmj due to its crappy performance.
When a 9mm/357/40/45 expands and dumps all its energy into a target in a without over penetrating everybody shouts for joy.
When the 5.7 tumbles and dumps its energy without over penetrating it’s BAD
Hhmmm
Of course FN one of the worlds leaders in military small arms spending almost 10 years inventing, testing and developing this round got it all wrong.

The P90 to give truck drivers, armor personal and support with something more than a M9.
NATO asked for arms mfg to work on a replacement.
FN and HK did this.
Would it replace the M4 NO was not made for that.

But I would take a P90 over a pile of crap 45acp greasegun anyday. And I have shot alot more than a 100 rounds of both

 

[M2 Carbine]

748

I'm not impressed with the 40gr V Max either. I'll have to try the 33gr Speer TNT hollow point.

Have you seen this outfit? I thought his .224 FMJBT prices were right good, so I bought 5,000.
The bullets look good and shoot pretty good in the .223.

I haven't got the powder to load them in the 5.7 yet.

http://www.gibrass.com/projectiles.html

 

[asknight]

panzermk2, were you not listening to anything I said? I didn't say the 5.7x28 was so bad with SS190 or SS192 ammunition that the pistol was designed for. But tell me where you can buy SS190 and SS192 ammunition? What I am saying is that the penetration of the ammunition that we can get is terrible, as it's nothing more than a standard fare polymer tipped varmint bullet. The 40gr VMAX doesn't tumble, it disintegrates on impact. As long as I can get premium hollowpoint ammunition for 9mm, 40, and 45, I will deem the 5.7x28 varmint ammunition as unacceptable for self defense.

In essence, the majority of FN's 10 years of R&D is useless to the American consumer, as we can't buy the ammunition the thing was designed for to provide adequate stopping power with.

Also, if you can afford regular practice at >$0.50 per shot, more power to you.

 

[wbond]

Just a thought

Has anyone ever noticed that ballistically the FN 5.7 pistol is almost, but not quite in the same league as a .22 Mag rifle? If you compare the ballistics of a 5.7 pistol with a .22 Mag rifle with both using the same bullet weight, the .22 Mag rifle has the advantage by 100 to 200 fps.

At least that's what I recall from when I compared.

Does that mean the .22 Mag rifle is fairly deadly? It appears so to me.

I know my grandfather used to poach deer with a .22 Mag semi auto rifle and he said the most he could get into them was 2 to 3 shots before they dropped.

 

[DmL5]

asknight,

Let's go through some quick points..

1. FN pulled the SS192 to release an identical round to law enforcement that didn't contain lead. This had nothing to do with the Brady Campaign. The new round is the SS195LF and it has been commonly available (even to civilians) for months. It is exactly the same as the SS192, except that it uses a lead free primer.

2. CMMG is selling cases of SS195 for $18 a box and SS197 for $16 a box. That's $0.36 and $0.32 per round. Not $0.56 as you state.

3. The SS190 out of the P90 averaged over 12 inches in 10% gelatin testing done by two different groups that I know of.

4. Even the V-MAX penetrates 10.5 inches in 10% ballistic gelatin out of the pistol. Not "a couple of inches deep".


- DmL

 

[asknight]

DmL5,

1. I believe you are mistaken and a quick perusal of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28_mm#Overview would prove enlightening. The Brady Campaign was the orchestrator of the reasons FN pulled SS192 from the market. If FN is doing evasive workarounds to get around the Brady's radar, more power to them.

2. CMMG lists their SS195 at $20 per box, and SS197 is $18 a box plus shipping. Their total price on a box of SS195 is $27.50 ($0.55 per shot), so what exactly is your point? Of course my local guy has to make a dollar or two per box for his time and effort. The ammunition I purchased was 6 months ago, and the dealer was selling it for $28-30 per box of 50, and he was selling it as fast as he could stock it.

3. We were discussing the ballistics of the 40gr VMAX SS196/197 ammunition out of the FiveseveN, not the illegal for civilians SS190 in the almost unobtainable P90. Again, you're trying to force favorable ballistics down my throat when we both know we can't buy SS190 ammunition.

4. From Tactical Forums which was deemed worthy of a direct link from Wikipedia.

Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.

The P90 has a barrel length of 10.35", how does it's performance with a 40gr VMAX exceed that of a 20", exactly?

It doesn't seem you have a clue what you're talking about. Let's go through some quick points..

That doesn't seem too nice and agreeable with THR policies. I appreciate you editing that out of your post.

 

[DmL5]

1. I believe you are mistaken and a quick perusal of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28_mm#Overview would prove enlightening. The Brady Campaign was the orchestrator of the reasons FN pulled SS192 from the market. If FN is doing evasive workarounds to get around the Brady's radar, more power to them.

I see nothing particularly evasive in pulling a round, re-releasing it, and openly proclaiming that it is in every way the same ballistically as the round they pulled. FNH USA's own website openly states that the SS195 is simply an SS192 with a lead free primer. In the meantime, please stop citing Wikipedia.

2. CMMG lists their SS195 at $20 per box, and SS197 is $18 a box plus shipping. Their total price on a box of SS195 is $27.50 ($0.55 per shot), so what exactly is your point? Of course my local guy has to make a dollar or two per box for his time and effort. The ammunition I purchased was 6 months ago, and the dealer was selling it for $28-30 per box of 50, and he was selling it as fast as he could stock it.

My statement was case price. "CMMG is selling cases of SS195 for $18 a box and SS197 for $16 a box". Regardless, CMMG was only an example and you can find better prices if you look around. Next, CDNN Online was selling SS195 for $35 a box just a couple months ago. Obviously the ammo cost is coming down every month now that Fiocchi is loading ammo alongside FN. Wolf Ammo will be loading 5.7x28 as well, later this year.

3. We were discussing the ballistics of the 40gr VMAX SS196/197 ammunition out of the FiveseveN, not the illegal for civilians SS190 in the almost unobtainable P90. Again, you're trying to force favorable ballistics down my throat when we both know we can't buy SS190 ammunition.

Firstly, I actually made that comment in reply to your stating that SS190 out of the P90 penetrates "10 inches". Which it most certainly does not, regardless of what Wikipedia says. You do know that Wikipedia is open to edits by anyone, correct? Secondly, FN offers a 'civilian P90' called the PS90 and many people have already acquired one or more of them. CMMG offers 10.3 inch barrels with which you can SBR it and it essentially becomes a semi auto P90 giving the exact same capacity, ballistic performance, etc. How is this 'almost unobtainable'?

4. From Tactical Forums which was deemed worthy of a direct link from Wikipedia.

You need not give me that link. I'm very familiar with it. Dr Roberts' own testing showed an average of over 12".

That doesn't seem too nice and agreeable with THR policies.

No, but it's very much true. How did you expect to be taken seriously on this gun when you didn't even know that its primary civilian round (the SS195) even existed?

 

[M2 Carbine]

DP

 

[M2 Carbine]

asknight
The "wound" on the soaked telephone books was ~1.5 inches deep and 3" in diameter. That's a bloody surface wound in a self defense scenario, and not a threat stopping wound.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I soaked some phone books over night and here's what the FN pistol did this morning.
This is just FYI. I'm not a big fan of shooting wet phone books except for the fun of it.

Distance was 9 yards.
I was also sighting in the laser at the same time so I was off center on all shots. Also the SS195 shoots much higher than the Vmax as can been seen by where the top SS195 hit.

Note, no three inch diameter surface wounds.
I don't think I'd be very active after taking a couple of these rounds in the chest.


Top, 40gr VMax. It penetrated a little over 4 inches and to my surprise it didn't break up, but mushroomed quite well.


The lower VMax. It penetrated a little over 6 inches but didn't mushroom quite as well, which might account for the deeper penetration.


The SS196. It penetrated almost 6 and a half inches. It tumbled within 4 inches and when stopped was sideways. It also had drifted left about 2.5 inches as it tumbled.


The penetration depth of the three bullets.

 

[asknight]

M2 Carbine, I respect that you have received different results in soaked phone book media than I have. Still, 4 inches of penetration of a varmint bullet a defensive round does not make. Increase the velocity of that bullet to the P(S)90 level, and you will likely notice that the bullet fragments completely on your same media. It definitely did on mine which was drained for a couple of hours before shooting which may have made it a denser media.

The current FBI requirements are 12 inches of penetration for duty.

I will continue to use that as a general rule of thumb for defensive carry ammo. Even though your penetration tests proved deeper than my own, the ammunition is still not coming close to my own requirements for carry.

DmL5, of course I know of the SS195, where did I say I knew nothing about it's existence? I also know that most all dealers were stocking the SS196/197 for quite some time before the SS195 became available. Thus why I was able to test SS196/197 (BOTH 40gr VMAX loads) only, because SS195 was not available at any costs at the time. As you said, it was a version of the SS192 that was pulled, then re-released. So you can't expect that the SS195 has been available for as long as the 40gr VMAX SS196/197.

I will now bow out of this thread as certain new posters are becoming outright rude because I do not agree with their opinions of the 5.7x28. I still stand by my own conclusions and will continue to use 9mm/40/45 for defensive purposes for it's superior performance and lower price in that role.

 

[M2 Carbine]

asknight
M2 Carbine, I respect that you have received different results in soaked phone book media than I have. Still, 4 inches of penetration of a varmint bullet a defensive round does not make. Increase the velocity of that bullet to the P(S)90 level, and you will likely notice that the bullet fragments completely on your same media. It definitely did on mine which was drained for a couple of hours before shooting which may have made it a denser media.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Yes the 40gr VMax will fragment if it's driven several hundred FPS faster than the FN 5.7 pushes it. It fragments in water at 1,700 FPS.

As I said early, even though I own the FN 5.7, I still haven't made up my mind about it yet. I don't champion the gun as being a replacement for my Kimber but I also don't believe many men are going to take a couple of those rounds in the chest and still be in a fighting mood.

I'll keep my 45 for a while but I don't feel under gunned carrying the FN around the place at night.

 

[DmL5]

Still, 4 inches of penetration of a varmint bullet a defensive round does not make.

You're singling out the worst 5.7x28 round and trying to use it to further your case against all 5.7x28 rounds. The SS196 V-MAX is generally regarded as the worst 5.7x28 round out there. Just so you know, it is also discontinued as of late 2005 in favor of the SS197. You won't be seeing or buying any more of it. When weighing the performance of the 5.7x28, use the SS195 for your comparisons. It's virtually identical to the SS190 aside from its lacking an AP projectile design.

DmL5, of course I know of the SS195, where did I say I knew nothing about it's existence?

You said, direct quote: "I didn't say the 5.7x28 was so bad with SS190 or SS192 ammunition that the pistol was designed for. But tell me where you can buy SS190 and SS192 ammunition?" You implied that we can't buy ammo equivalent to SS192, which is false. SS195 is SS192 with a lead free primer.

I also know that most all dealers were stocking the SS196/197 for quite some time before the SS195 became available.

This is false. The SS195 was available for months before the SS197.

I will now bow out of this thread as certain new posters are becoming outright rude because I do not agree with their opinions of the 5.7x28.

Feel free to do that. Sorry if I was rude but you seem to know very little about the topic you're posting on.



- DmL

 

[panzermk2]

Sorta Sheriffed over here.
Beat me to the reply Dml. Like I very first posted start by knowing what your talking about. The SS192 really set me since thats why I posted the Ammo tables. Which after he complained about how long my post was He didnot read them or he would have known about the SS192/195

 

[748]

M2 Carbine:
The 55gr FMJ-BT's are good bullets for this gun.
I loaded some up to 6.0gr of HS-6 and a CCI mag primer, they were dangerous loads Way to much pressure. NOT SAFE.
Some where between 5 and 6 grains with Mag primers I hit a huge pressure spike not sure where. Problem was I couldn't find much of my brass at the out door range I tested my 55gr loads at.
I think I need to back them off a full gr and retest again.
Right around 4gr of HS-6 and a standard CCI primer will give you sub sonic rounds.
I use factory ammo as a source of brass, noise and as a gun heater.
The only gun I normaly use factory ammo in are my 22WMR rifle and 10/22.
I don't think about my Fiveseven having less power then a 22WMR fired form a rifle be cause my 40gr bullets are clocking allmost 2000fps.
I like my 2000fps ballistic silvertips they pull some kind of a Neo black tallon when fired into water and other soft suff. They kept 80%-85% of there weight.
I shoot 33gr speer TNT HP's at about 2400fps, they fragment and don't even go through a milk jug of water, not some thing you want to use on some thing biger then a wook chuck. There my best load. I love shooting those.
My 22WMR rifle fires 40gr bullets all day at 1850fps and 32gr bullets 1950fps just as consistantly.
The only thing I like SS196 for was brass making and hole punching. It was great for that.
I'm not sure about SS197 yet. It dosen't shoot as straight as other loads in my gun.

 

[Gordon]

I have a Colt Bisley modified by Christy gun works to .22K hornet. I shoot 40 grain Speer bullet out it's 7.5" barrel at 2000-2100 fps. Being it has a sub 2 pound trigger and big King target sights it can shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. How accurrate is that plastic pop gun? How good is the trigger? The sights look like a Mattel. Even in the 21 Century ONLY HITS COUNT! And if your shooting a .22 at people ONLY PIN POINT HITS COUNT If you need more rapid fire my .22 Jet has a good DA pull and also outperforms the 5.7! My Colt Diamondback 6" .22 mag is about on a par with it, and it has good sights and a good trigger so you have some accuracy! If your gonna shoot a 5.7 it should be in something like a Benelli or Hammerelli Target pistol with the mag ahead of the trigger.

 

[asknight]

panzermk2, trust me, your very long post is not where I learned about SS192/195.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Make out of this what you will, but it surprised me.

I bound the phone books together again and put them in water.
I wanted to compare another round to the 5.7 and here's what happened.

Gun= 45 ACP Kimber Tactical Ultra II (3 inch barrel)
Range= 9 yards.
Ammo= Remington 230gr Golden Saber and Aguila IQ (the IQ is a high speed 1280 fps, light (117gr) weight HP bullet designed to break into 3-4 chunks) It has done a lot of damage to everything I've shot with it.

Front of phone books. Left hole is the Aguila and right the Remington.


Both bullets went through only one (2 inch) phone book and about a half inch into the second. The lack of penetration surprised me.
The Remington made a "normal" hole and mushroomed well. The Aguila broke into 3 chunks passing through the first book and destroyed a lot of the book. There was a considerable chewed up crater in the second book.
This is the rear of the first book. Aguila on right, Rem on left.


The stack of books showing the bullet's penetration.