FN Five-seveN Why aren't we all carrying one?

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Better terminal performance than 9mm, better capacity than .45. It solves two problems at once, therefore it's a "solution looking for a problem?"
It has neither the easy trainability, capacity, or continuity of fire of the 9mm nor the big bore thump of the .45, so therefore falls short on both counts.

Just kidding, just pointing out looking at the same thing from the other angle. Actually, the .40 is an old concept, duplicating the .38-40 Win load of the 1880s.

The 5-7 however is just a slow .223. Since the .223 performance is based soley on it's velocity and not on it's bore size, how is slowing it down going to impact it's self-defense efficiency?
 
Along that vein, funny how people love to knock the .40 (probably because they can't take the recoil), yet the FBI and most PDs use it. Don't see many of them switching back to a different caliber.

Better terminal performance than 9mm, better capacity than .45. It solves two problems at once, therefore it's a "solution looking for a problem?"

The .40 fills the middle ground between two very capable and proven poilce/military calibers(9mm and .45) in terms of terminal effects and barrier penetration. Its combination of attributes make it an ideal law enforcement caliber. Of the three calibers, it is the only one designed from scratch in a semi-wadcutter and JHP which improves cutting should the JHP not expand. The FBI determined that the ideal caliber for their needs was the 10mm Auto loaded to fire a 180gr Sierra JHP at 980fps. Smith and Wesson in conjuction with Winchester determined that they could shorten the 10mm considerable and achieve those same performance numbers.....so the .40S&W was born.

The 5.7mm fills the middle ground between the .22mag and maybe the .30 Caliber Luger. It is very anemic for law enforcement needs in terms of both terminal effects, and defeating commonly encoutered barriers such as auto glass. Read more on Dr. Fackler's opinion on the first page of this thread. If you want a decent PDW caliber, try the .30 Caliber Carbine with soft points.
 
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Read more on Dr. Fackler's opinion on the first page of this thread.
Back in the '90s, I read an article in the old "Tactical Shooter" written by Fackler about the 5.7mm round. He was BRUTAL. In so many words, he said the round would get somebody killed sooner rather than later.

I think I'll attribute more credibility to Fackler's opinions than to mall ninjas' "CSI-Miami" induced fantasies.
 
The funny thing is that everyone thinks this round is new. They have been pimping this POS and the guns that shoot them since the 80's. My manual says 1985 for the P90.

So after the European Armies and police rejected it, repeatedly, they brought it here to the US an dump it on the US market because we will buy anything. The Hipoint and feather carbines show that fact.

Yeah the mall thing was a mall ninja dig, but you skipped the first and main question.
 
So after the European Armies and police rejected it, repeatedly, they brought it here to the US an dump it on the US market because we will buy anything. The Hipoint and feather carbines show that fact.

Not to mention H&K's PDW concept. "Gee, the stupid Amerikaners don't like the .22 caliber rounds because they're too small and weak and makes tiny holes. What's the solution? I know! We'll sell them a .17 caliber PDW! Brilliant!"

Hm. Has anyone been stupid enough to buy the .17 caliber things?
 
Has anyone been stupid enough to buy the .17 caliber things?

The MP7 has been adopted by some European law enforcement and military units, the UN, some units within the Mexican military and police, and German KSK (the Bundeswehr special forces unit).

Whether this is because of the effectiveness of the round or the compactness of the weapon is an open question. It might be that, like the USSS usage of the P90, it fills some niche.
 
Interesting. It may also be better marketing. .41 AE vs. .40 S&W.

I do remember reading that the .17 caliber rounds penetrate deeper after defeating body armor, but that still wouldn't boost my confidence in the thing.

It would be interesting to keep an eye on the people using the MP7 (couldn't remember what it was called), and see if they ditch it after a couple years.
 
why we don't all carry the FN 5-7? It would seem like that would be the ideal weapon. A rifle round that is fired from a handgun.
I already have a .22 Hornet (which is more powerful than the 5-7.) It would not be my first choice if I knew there was going to be a fight.
 
I do remember reading that the .17 caliber rounds penetrate deeper after defeating body armor, but that still wouldn't boost my confidence in the thing.

Exactly. The larger the caliber used, the higher the probability of hitting something vital and the less precision is needed on the shooter's part. Can you kill someone with a 1mm bullet at 2000fps?....sure, but your level of shot precision must be so good that it would be practically impossible to achieve fast incapacitation.

More from Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness:

"Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

Here's some from Agent Patrick in "10mm Notes" briefing to the FBI:

"Shot placement is obviously critical, and our test criteria presume that the shot is placed in the vital area of the body which contains the brain, upper spinal cord, heart and aorta/vena cava. This area runs from just above the eyes to the diaphragm, and is about 4 inches wide. But, as our experience in Miami amply illustrates, shot placement is only the first part of the equation. Jerry Dove placed his shot perfectly. Bullet performance is critical to translate shot placement into an effective, incapacitating wound. If shot placement was all that mattered, we could arm all Agents with .22’s. Secondly, perfect shot placement may be difficult to attain in the stress and dynamics of a shooting incident. The larger calibers offer a “margin of error” in that where a smaller bullet may just miss the aorta, for example, the larger one in the same placement will damage it. A good example is killing a 400 pound pig with a .22, something commonly done on the farm.

If the shot placement is exactly right, the pig is instantly killed. If it is off less than an inch, the pig goes wild and the process of killing it becomes rather lengthy and involved, whereas a larger caliber would succeed with a larger margin of miss than an inch. (Larger calibers are not used because they ruin too much of the pig a consideration that does not come into play in a shooting incident and besides which, nobody is going to die if the pig is not instantly killed anyway. In shootings, just the opposite is true)"


A gun fight is often fast and furious. Your heart rate is almost 200bpm causing combat stress so that you get tunnel vision, you shake, your body dexterity is greatly dimenished, and sometimes you don't even see your sights. Expecting to get precision hits in such a situation isn't practical. The larger your caliber(provided that you shoot it well), the better your chances of hitting critical areas of your target when you cannot get those precise shots. Shot per shot a good 9mm JHP has roughly three times the wounding ability as the 5.7mm.
 
Along that vein, funny how people love to knock the .40 (probably because they can't take the recoil), yet the FBI and most PDs use it. Don't see many of them switching back to a different caliber.

Most of us who knock the .40 Short & Weak do so because we see it as a bastardization of the best pistol round extant. Believe me, it's not because we can't handle the recoil. More like the recoil is insufficient ;)

Has anyone been stupid enough to buy the .17 caliber things?

Yup. But my intended targets stand 9-14" tall and bark. And the .17 Remington is well above the power of the 4.6x30mm HK.
 
Most of us who knock the .40 Short & Weak do so because we see it as a bastardization of the best pistol round extant. Believe me, it's not because we can't handle the recoil. More like the recoil is insufficient
Most of us who don't would like an effective semi-automatic handgun with a double column magazine that can be properly gripped and fired by someone who DOESN'T have hands like an orangutan.
 
The basic premise is wrong from the start. It's not a rifle round, it's basically a souped up .22 WMR, a light weight bullet at 2200 fps is not in rifle cartridge territory.

Having said that, I think 20 rounds of 5.7 in a handgun is a good thing, so I don't have a problem if that's what you want to carry. I'll stick with 9mm and .40 though.
 
Having said that, I think 20 rounds of 5.7 in a handgun is a good thing, so I don't have a problem if that's what you want to carry.
Yeah if they come out in bursts. Otherwise the large capacity of mediocre rounds means little in a quick and rapid firefight. The individual shooting a standard round in your direction will be shooting about as fast as you with the FN.
If one of you goes down in the first half dozen rounds it really won't matter who has more left in the magazine. Most firefights are shorter than that.

It would be a fine round with 3 round bursts or full auto from a pistol (still rather have something else in a long arm.) Much more controllable than most defensive calibers in such a configuration.
If you could shoot 3 accurate shots per trigger pull against someone shooting 1 defensive caliber per trigger pull and the 20 round capacity would serve a purpose. You would have 7 effective shots.
Instead you have 21 marginaly effective shots.
 
well, first off because for every trigger pull in the 5.7 vs mine I throw almost 6x as much lead and copper per trigger pull...

40gr vs 230gr is like a scooter vs a freight train.
 
I have a PS 90. I plan to buy a five seven. I have shot a friends on a number of occasions. I like both weapons.

That said I would much rather have some of my other pistols to defend myself.

I have used the five seven pistol and the ps90 to hunt jackrabbit on multiple occasions.

I have shot jackrabbit and seen others shot that did not die after one shot. A jackrabbit is not exactly a cape buffalo. Any that I have shot with a .357 mag were litteraly blown apart. The guts were in a different spot than the rest of what was left. The ones I've shot with my 1911 didn't fare much better.

My brother used to rely on a PS90 as his primary HD weapon. We went out and shot things, objects and varmints. He now has a 5.56 carbine and a x39 AK.

The five seven pistol is overpriced. It is fun. I would not use it as my carry gun. This is not because I have not handled or shot one and dont understand it virtues. I have and I do. I would much rather defend myself with a larger psitol caliber.

The PS90 has some real strong point too. I am in the camp that believes it is not really able to live up to its purpose in semi auto form with civilian ammo. I think a full auto P90 would be an ideal SMG. Having shot animals and various objects with it I would rather have another one of my carbines or shotguns.

Carry what you feel comfrotable with. Hunting with the five seven had left me uncofortable doing so, irrespective of issues of size and ergonomics.
 
I'm a five seven owner. I have trigger time with this gun.

Here's the facts

1: If you call this a 22 magnum, you're wrong.

2: If you think this gun doesn't have stopping power, you're wrong.

3: If you think the ammo is too expensive, you're crazy. It's cheaper than .223

4: If Glock, SW, anyone gets with it and makes a gun that fires this round, everyone that has talked smack about the load will be forced to shut up as they are going to finally have to shoot the buck rogers load, but not in the Buck Rogers gun.

5: It's just plain cool. There's nothing else I can say about my five seven. It's more accurate than any pistol I've shot. The round doesn't even begin to drop off till well after 100 yards. And that's the standard 40g.

6: The pistol was designed to serve as a companion to the P90. Now that we the civilians have the option, we're being forced to find a niche for the gun. It's new. Give it some time, we'll see.

7: I know one person that carries it as his daily carry weapon. He's never complained about the bulk because he is such a firm believer in the pistol.

8: When I have the option to carry it in a bag, this will always be my carry weapon. Those select times when it needs to be holstered and on my hip, I won't carry it due to the size. Not the weight, the size. It simply prints too big on my body.

9: Again, this is cheaper to shoot than a .223 if you shoot factory loads.

10: I could use one more opinion about the five seven from someone that has never fired a five seven like I could use another a**hole.

11: Calling this gun overpriced is just plain misguided. It's a new gun that has been highly engineered. You get what you pay for. That's like saying a Porsche is overpriced, or comparing Kobe beef to a quarter pounder and saying the kobe steak is overpriced. This is a very unique and advanced gun. There is nothing like it on the market. Pricey? Yes. Overpriced? HELLLLL Nooooooo!
 
If you call this a 22 magnum, you're wrong.

It's not even 22 magnum out of a rifle. Of course, it shouldn't be, you're firing it out of a pistol.

If you think this gun doesn't have stopping power, you're wrong.

Evidence with civilian ammunition out of the pistol doesn't point to it.

If you think the ammo is too expensive, you're crazy. It's cheaper than .223

Thing is I'm not buying a rifle round. I'm buying a bottlenecked pistol round of dubious power - it's like saying that my .357 Sig is somehow a rifle round too.

If Glock, SW, anyone gets with it and makes a gun that fires this round, everyone that has talked smack about the load will be forced to shut up as they are going to finally have to shoot the buck rogers load, but not in the Buck Rogers gun.

Because anyone who doesn't like the 5-7 must never have fired it. Never.

I could use one more opinion about the five seven from someone that has never fired a five seven like I could use another a**hole.

That's the thing - if you're not on the 5-7 Kool Aid express, you must never have fired the round. Ever.

I really, really wanted one until I shot one. I was so put back by the experience I tried it again several times over the course of a few years. IOM or USG, it didn't hold a candle to my Sigs, 1911s, or other pistols. I even shoot a Glock 17 better, and I'm bad with Glocks.

On the flip side, I love the PS90 in design, function, and capacity, but it's just too small for me. And the lack of good ammo is a serious problem.

Calling this gun overpriced is just plain misguided. It's a new gun that has been highly engineered. You get what you pay for.

Molded plastic, shrouded hammer design isn't exactly highly engineered. The basic action dates back at least eighty to ninety years. Polymer pistols are extremely inexpensive to make; Glock admitted in BusinessWeek they cost the company at the time in the 90s approximately $70 to manufacture. The 5-7 has no additional amazing components which would propel it into a stratosphere of cost. Fit and finish are what I've seen on most guns costing half of it or less - if it was a stock CZ price range, I could see forgiving it.

You get what you pay for. That's like saying a Porsche is overpriced, or comparing Kobe beef to a quarter pounder and saying the kobe steak is overpriced. This is a very unique and advanced gun. There is nothing like it on the market.

It's an imported polymer pistol in an exotic caliber, an upsized Sig Mosquito with slightly better parts if you will. Blowback shrouded hammer designs date back to JMB. Doublestack magazine. Nobody else has that. Bottleneck cartridge. Ditto.

The rabid defense of the 5-7 is almost comical, and I find the 1911-spewers to often be hilarious too - but this is even further.
 
I love that the people defending the 5.7 round are the civilian community while the professional community (the guys who shoot people in the course of their job) are moving back to the M4 and the 40 S&W.

You guys can defend it all you want, and I would expect a fan to do just that. But in the three coroners reports I have read where a 5.7 was used in a police shooting the 5.7 round is not what killed the perp. I will take a coroners report over a blanket statement ANY day of the week. If you have any that you would like to forward, please PM me.

Physics are physics and you are stuck with the rules we have here in this universe. And the rules say little holes bleed less than big holes. If you want penetration you give up expansion.
 
But in the three coroners reports I have read where a 5.7 was used in a police shooting the 5.7 round is not what killed the perp.

While I happen to agree that the 5.7 is not sufficient for most defensive uses I have to say that I could probably find 3 coroners reports where someone was shot with a .45 and the round is not what killed the perp.

There just isn't enough data out there from real life shootings to make a conclusion from those since so few agencies use the round.

Plenty of ballistics testing, but no real world info yet. And as many have pointed out, the .22LR is likely responsible for more non combat firearms deaths than any other round so it's "fuzzy" business.

The 5.7's recoil is almost nonexistent in a carbine and it is the home defense weapon of choice for my wife simply because of that. 50 rounds without reloading and no recoil. It's better than nothing, which is the important thing.
 
Plenty of ballistics testing, but no real world info yet. And as many have pointed out, the .22LR is likely responsible for more non combat firearms deaths than any other round so it's "fuzzy" business.
But we are not concerned with killing people. We are concerned with stopping an attacker.

A person hit with a .22 may die, and a person hit with a .45 may survive. The question is, how long after he was hit did he continue his attack?
 
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