FN FiveseveN Warning *Picture Heavy*

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You have the basis of an excellent Products Liability suit. I suspect that if you have an an attorney call them to begin the process of a suit, you'll have a new gun, all your medical bills plus some money for the pain and suffering.

I've spent my working life as a liability underwriter and marketing rep for casualty insurance carriers. Your story would send their liability and umbrella insurance company running with a check book.
They should pay for the the attitude they've displayed toward your injuries.

Keep us posted.
 
^^^...uh...wrong.

please make intelligent recommendations only after reading the entire thread and know something about reloading...
 
If I was FN, I'd start stamping "FACTORY AMMO ONLY; DO NOT USE RELOADS" on the slide of every gun, starting today. Why not try to protect the unsuspecting public from injuries, and help avoid lawsuits from injuries from here on out?
That's nonsense! We don't know how often something like this has occured with the firearm in question. You want the manufacturer to go the way of the companies that make ladders, and had to cover the daggone things with decals to keep from getting sued by folks who happened to fall off 'em? Yet, I will agree that if an FN tech has indeed made the statement implying that handloading/reloading is not compatible with this weapon, then there should be some sort of warning in the manual, but not stamped across the dang gun! Then, if someone can't bear to own a weapon that they can't reload for, the solution is simple - don't buy it!
 
I started reloading with a wildcat benchrest cartridge and load 6 different pistol cartridges.
And I know a little more about what works with liability suits, having been involved with thousands of claims over the years.
The insurance carrier will want to make a suit go away as it costs $$$ just to defend it.
Look up Product Liability on the internet or go to the library and do some reading before you comment about something you obviously understand little about.
 
thus another reason to never buy an FN 5.7........

Fixed that for ya.

If someone from the factory says that it's a scary round to reload and recommends against it "man to man" and not "man to factory rep" then you simply shouldn't purchase this weapon if you plan on reloading.
 
I have a question...

If the OP is dead set on FN assuming some liability for the weapon, what degree of responsibility is he/she willing to accept for reloading incorrectly?

Moreover, what responisbility is he/she willing to accept for plastering this all over cyber-space and possibly damaging FN's reputation with people willing to accept anything posted on the internet as 100% true?
 
I have a question...

If the OP is dead set on FN assuming some liability for the weapon, what degree of responsibility is he/she willing to accept for reloading incorrectly?

Moreover, what responisbility is he/she willing to accept for plastering this all over cyber-space and possibly damaging FN's reputation with people willing to accept anything posted on the internet as 100% true?

It doesn't seem like either one of them are willing to assume any liability.

The OP definately doesn't seem willing to. And FN's dealings seem shady at best.

Why did FN only want to do something once the word "lawsuit" was mentioned?

They're both equally at fault here as far as I'm concerned. You have someone that appears to be reloading outside the envelope and you have a weapon that fires a mile and a half out of battery.

I also gleamed something else that the FN guy mentioned. He said that the weapon has to be destroyed per BATFE regs and that the serial number can't be re-issued. I distinctly remember someone who had a Glock blow up on them from either this board or GlockTalk, sent it back to Glock, and it came back with a new receiver with his OLD serial number.
 
Why did FN only want to do something once the word "lawsuit" was mentioned?

What we don't have is how the OP approached FN. Was he reasonable? Did he give them a fair chance to respond? Did he actually listen to what they had to say? Did he report their responces accuratley?

Maybe he did...maybe he gave them every chance in the world and they squandered it.

However, it's also possible that he did call them but was such a jerk that they blew him off. Trust me, some customers act like such idiots that they make it IMPOSSIBLE to help them. You can't just say it's FN's responsibility to act without at least considering how the OP delt with them.

Heck, on another thread about Missouri bullets it turned out the OP (not the same person as this one) gave MB about 20 minutes to respond to his issue before plastering it on the net. And he was less than friendly on the phone to boot.

Point is, I'm not saying the OP was actually a jerk and unreasonable, but we also have to take him at face value that everything he's told us is accurate and not biased. That doesn't always result in the un-represented party getting fair representation.
 
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Oh great, I just got linked here from Ehowa.com. Saw pics of a kaboom, clicked it, and here I am. Small world, huh?
 
Hey everyone, OP here. I've been VERY busy since I originally posted this. I will read through all of the posts and answer as many questions as I can tonight and tomorrow.

-Jake
 
This whole situation came into play when FN failed to come up to the plate. Our biggest complaint is lack of customer service and support.

No, this whole situation came into play because your son failed to take personal responsibility for his actions.

If they had been taking care of their customer this probably wouldn't have made it to the net.
Their manual said don't use reloads. Your son violated that and you expect them to replace the gun? Why?

To those of you who blame the reloads, please don't reload as you are a safety concern.

I do reload. Unlike your son, I've never blown up a gun. Unlike your son, I only load using recipes (bullet type and weight, powder, primer, etc.) in accordance with data published by manufacturers and/or reloading manuals. In contrast, your son loaded his cartridges using a bullet and powder combination for which there is no published load data! Why did he do that? The limits in the manuals don't apply to him? So tell me again, which of us is a safety concern? Someone who follows the guidelines in the reloading manuals or someone who decides to reload a very sensitive caliber and to do so using a recipe that has never been tested?

I'm sure that you love your son, but that love is clouding your view of the episode.

Also, don't rebuild your car engine, it might blowup, so go buy a new car!
If you are going to make an analogy, why don't you choose a valid one? Your son rebuilt the engine on his car. He did it incorrectly. It threw a rod, he was injured, and now he wants the car maker to replace the engine. Just how far do you think you would get with Ford if that happened?

Answer: not very far.

Your son screwed up. Now you are screwing up as a parent, because you are blaming someone else. You need to teach him to take responsibility for his own actions. He chose to reload. He chose to use a recipe for which their was no data. If you do that type of experimentation, particularly in such a sensitive caliber, you have to expect that failures may occur. That is why manufacturers do such testing with test barrels, in test labs, with elaborate safety precautions.

Your sons injuries will heal. Thank the Lord for the cheap lesson, accept responsibility, stop blaming someone else, and move on.
 
No, this whole situation came into play because your son failed to take personal responsibility for his actions.

Wrong, I know I was using reloads, I was upfront to FN about it and asked them if they wanted to inspect the firearm.

Their manual said don't use reloads. Your son violated that and you expect them to replace the gun? Why?

Again, in my initial call to FN I told Robert Ailes up front that I had used reloads, I asked if they wanted to inspect the gun to see if they could find out what happened, he told me that he would talk to his boss and call be back the next day. I never received the call, so I called for an update and asked him to return my call. He called me Wednesday and said that he talked to his boss and that they would be having "someone" contact me. I asked him how much it would be if I could just get the gun replaced, he said he didn't know and I would have to wait until "someone" called me. I waited 2 weeks and never received a call. So I called again to check up and see what was going on and why I hadn't received a call yet. He said the best they could do for me was take the gun in, inspect it, destroy it after 30 days, and give me a "deep discount" on a new one.

After talking to Tommy Thacker, Product Manager for FN, he told me that after the call took place Robert Ailes realized who I was and was very frustrated at that point. Tommy told him to calm down and just call me back. So I neither received the call-tag to get the gun picked up, nor did I receive a call from Robert to fix the situation.

That is what happened, I never once asked them to replace my gun for free, I simply asked if they wanted to take a look at it. Robert Ailes told me to just hold on to it for now and that he would talk to his boss.

I do reload. Unlike your son, I've never blown up a gun. Unlike your son, I only load using recipes (bullet type and weight, powder, primer, etc.) in accordance with data published by manufacturers and/or reloading manuals. In contrast, your son loaded his cartridges using a bullet and powder combination for which there is no published load data! Why did he do that? The limits in the manuals don't apply to him? So tell me again, which of us is a safety concern? Someone who follows the guidelines in the reloading manuals or someone who decides to reload a very sensitive caliber and to do so using a recipe that has never been tested?

The load data I used has been extensively tested by the owner of it, EliteAmmunition.


Your son screwed up. Now you are screwing up as a parent, because you are blaming someone else. You need to teach him to take responsibility for his own actions. He chose to reload. He chose to use a recipe for which their was no data. If you do that type of experimentation, particularly in such a sensitive caliber, you have to expect that failures may occur. That is why manufacturers do such testing with test barrels, in test labs, with elaborate safety precautions.

Your sons injuries will heal. Thank the Lord for the cheap lesson, accept responsibility, stop blaming someone else, and move on.

Blaming FN for the kaboom... no, the OOB firing is merely my observation and no one will know for sure until it is completely inspected by FN. This has been 100% about customer service, the ball was dropped more than once. If FN had just straight up said, "Nope, sorry we don't want to look at it and we have no interest in replacing your firearm." Then I would have said, OK thanks.

Would I buy another one, probably not, probably won't buy another polymer gun either way. Do I think there might be a problem, yeah I do. But that's just my .02
 
f3rr37 - will you post pictures of your primers from the spent casings that you fired in this session?

I will try and post pictures of a few spent casings and their primers when I get home this evening.

I measured the amount of space my 5.7 will fire out of battery to .304 inches. At .308, it does not fire out of battery. But... WHY would it be out of battery and firing?

Information from Tommy Thacker:
The Five-seveN slide will move rearward .1540-.1545" before it is considered out of battery. This measurement can be taken by pushing back directly on the barrel. After that point the barrel lug is locked and the slide will continue to move rearward. Now you are considered out of battery.

Up to this point the hammer can still fall but you will not strike the primer. The hammer will strike the bottom of the slide and not the firing pin. At .0840" of slide travel the firing pin disconnect is out of reach of the firing pin safety. The firing pin safety is the part that lifts the firing pin block out of the way allowing the firing pin to travel forward after being struck by the hammer.

You've posted this on the fiveseven forum as well. <harsh>If you spend time researching the 55 grain load data, you know that it's not all fun and games at the load data spewed there. Some of that data is WAY over pressure and some of those pos(t)ers are quite possibly living on borrowed time shooting the 5.7 at loadings they are posting. One poster even tried this round with H110 (that I use in my .357 magnum, .44 & 500 magnums. That resulted in a similar spontaneous disassembly</harsh> Now, I'm not generally a killjoy, but FN wins any case you bring against them in the public forum, or in court.

I do not take any load data there posted lightly, yes I have seen some data there that could be dangerous. The load data was provided to me by EliteAmmunition, who has done a lot of testing on the load.

Now, I do hope sincerely that you are well healed and soon and that your shooting is not adversely affected by this other than the financial loss. Further, I'm glad that you're ok enough to type.

As am I. So far things have healed very well. I still have some loss of feeling in my finger, but it is slowly coming back, there is only about 20-30% that still has no feeling, but there are places that were numb before that are starting to get some feeling back.

It's only a problem when the round won't chamber. When was the last time you heard of a 5.7 kaBoom with a 28.5 grain LF round? (this is an honest question, not a smart-a$$ commentary). I can't recall. Added: I did see in your thread on the 57forum that there is a 2nd hand report of an SS197 OOB firing, but that's the only mention of a factory round I'm aware of.

I haven't heard of a kaboom with the SS195 (28grain bullet), but some people have had some rounds that were over pressure and some that had primers pierced. The SS197 so far is the only round that has caused a kaboom in the PS90, I have heard of more than one case of this happening.
 
Even if we accept that this was an OOB event, it doesn't follow that there's no difference between reloads or factory ammunition. Something has to hold the gun out of battery for this to be an issue and I would hazard an educated guess that in that regard reload vs factory definitely does matter...
There have been cases of factory ammo having case-neck separation.
 
Peakbagr said:
You have the basis of an excellent Products Liability suit. I suspect that if you have an an attorney call them to begin the process of a suit, you'll have a new gun, all your medical bills plus some money for the pain and suffering.

I've spent my working life as a liability underwriter and marketing rep for casualty insurance carriers. Your story would send their liability and umbrella insurance company running with a check book.
They should pay for the the attitude they've displayed toward your injuries.
........

The insurance carrier will want to make a suit go away as it costs $$$ just to defend it.
Look up Product Liability on the internet or go to the library and do some reading before you comment about something you obviously understand little about.
That is just crap!!! This is why a plastic pistol that couldn't be worth more than a couple of hundred costs a thousand bucks. Every ambulance chaser and insurance pusher gets a cut from it.
Just imagine if the OP was using factory ammo and this happened... same folks who point fingers at FN would be all over suing the ammo maker. It just happens that in this case the ammo maker was the same guy who got hurt.
 
Damned Plastic

My condolences, man - that's a pretty painful looking injury. Sorry about that.

But your story underscores, in my opinion, a different but somewhat related point. The Five-seveN is essentially all plastic, with just the barrel and part of the slide made of metal.

You all heard that "...stronger than steel and yet 80% lighter..." stuff?
Some (nowadays actually most) gun makers feed it to us all the time and those less informed keep buying it!

Well, when it comes to bearing gunpowder gas pressure, that "stronger than steel" argument does NOT work. You don't see barrels and chambers made of plastic or ceramics - except is some specialty spy or disposable weapons.

I am an Engineer with over 20 years of experience in materials and tools, so I know what I am talking about - and feel free to challenge my point.

Follow the money!!! It's just a lot cheaper to make the frame and other parts out of plastic, so every gun maker out there jumps on the bandwagon. Military guns in THEIR calculation aren't supposed to last 50 years, so what's the point of bending over backwards? (Glock owners - nothing personal - there's always a good excuse when the price is right) If this rationale works for you when you consider YOUR gun purchase then fine - it's your skin not mine.

You get the point. Pick steel!
 
I started reloading with a wildcat benchrest cartridge and load 6 different pistol cartridges.
And I know a little more about what works with liability suits, having been involved with thousands of claims over the years.
The insurance carrier will want to make a suit go away as it costs $$$ just to defend it.
Look up Product Liability on the internet or go to the library and do some reading before you comment about something you obviously understand little about.

You're just full of it. You wanna bet if the OP would win the suit or even get settled?? With all of the information presented here (which FN already has, I'm sure), "testing" his "reloads" ?
 
The part left out of the usual material strength advertisement is "Plastic X is stronger than steel, pound for pound." Wanna visualize what a pistol made out of three pounds of plastic would look like?
 
The is the Glock, the FiveSeveN cost about 800-900, and how much you spend on the gun does not always= garbage look at Kimber (oh yeah I went there). But the reason I find this whole thing interesting is this is the first Kb with a FiveSeveN I have heard of.
 
Lawyers and Insurance

I was stunned when I read wristtwister's comment:

"Also, you might be able to file a claim against the insurance at either the range where this happened or with the property owner's insurance where it happened."

Someone does not follow the manufacturer's instructions, fires reloads, and, for whatever reason, the gun goes kaboom! So he should file a claim against the range and the property owner??!! At best there is a problem with the gun so there is a claim against the manufacturer. At worst, he made a mistake in the reload and it's his own problem.

In either case, in neither case is this kaboom in ANY way related to the range owner or the property owner.

http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/banghead.gif

If you have any question about why it's getting harder to find ranges, why ranges keep closing, or why ranges have more and more rules that take away a lot of the enjoyment of shooting, just look at wristtwister's post.

Do you want rules at ranges saying "No Reloads"?

I belong to a club with a range. We know that one bad accident or even a shot escaping the range and the local anti-gun types will shut the range down. People are responsible and careful. There are not a lot of rules because we're grown-ups.

Wristtwister, please don't come to our range! We don't want the insurance claim or the lawsuit if you make a mistake with a reload or your gun goes kaboom because the manufacturer screwed up.
 
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