Follow Up: Another One Bites The Dust...

[camslam]

We were all discussing a week ago the guy that shot the Texas Musician through the door as he was trying to break in during the wee hours of the morning.

There was obviously a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking about what he should or should not have done. Whether or not he should have waited till the door actually broke, etc...

I thought this was an interesting story talking about another guy that shot through his door at a pair of criminals. It says he wasn't charged with anything and might give us all another perspective on what we would do in a similiar situation. Enjoy.

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_091907_salem_drunk_man_shot_through_door_.ece33464.html

Man speaks about defending family from violent attempted intruder

05:07 PM PDT on Wednesday, September 19, 2007

By ANTONIA GIEDWOYN, kgw.com Staff

SALEM – Fearing for his family’s safety, a Salem man shot a drunken stranger who was trying to kick in an apartment door while mumbling to be let in, police and witnesses said Wednesday.

Yev Gerasimenko, his wife and their four-day-old baby were sleeping Monday night when two men pounded on their door, asking for someone they don't know.

Gerasimenko told them they had the wrong home. Later, one man came back and started kicking the door and trying to break the doorknob, so the family called police, officers said.

Gerasimenko said he repeatedly warned the man he had a gun. When he heard a second person breaking in, he fired two warning shots low in the front door.

"That's when I decided I would use my gun, fire a warning shot. So I stepped back from the door and fired two shots, and I was pointing down so it would not hit any neighbors or anything," he said.

Raw: Father describes frightening attempted home invasion Then Gerasimenko held the suspect at gunpoint until police arrived. The second man apparently got away.

Christopher Cruz, 35, was hit by one of two shots through the door and suffered a wound to his thigh, said Salem Police Lt. John Hoffmeister.

Witnesses told KGW Cruz was “dropkicking” the door to break into the apartment. Officers arrived just before midnight.

Cruz was arrested and charged with attempted burglary and a probation violation related to a drunk driving conviction, police said. He was hospitalized with a blood alcohol level about three times the legal limit.

Gerasimenko does not face any charges.

The incident occurred about 11:45 p.m. Monday in West Salem at the Deer Creek Crossing Apartments in the 1500 block of Wallace Road NW.

The family has moved.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Cruz was arrested and charged with attempted burglary and a probation violation related to a drunk driving conviction, police said. He was hospitalized with a blood alcohol level about three times the legal limit.

Well, isn't that astounding?

 

[elkhuntingfool]

Not sure if I'd shoot through a door - you'd have no idea what's on the other side of the door. Goes back to the old saying "Know your target and what's beyond your target."

I would defend myself and family - but not they way this gentleman did it. Not knocking him at all - just my take on it.

 

[camslam]

Not sure if I'd shoot through a door - you'd have no idea what's on the other side of the door. Goes back to the old saying "Know your target and what's beyond your target."

This is the problem. We discussed this regarding the Texas shooting. While it sounds good to follow rule #4 in this situation, the realities can be much different. Why when you know there are at least 1 person and in this case 2 people, why would you wait till they busted down your door? Anything can happen at that point and when someone has ignored numerous warnings about you being armed, they are obviously looking for trouble.

I think he did a wise thing in this situation. He aimed low, hit the guy in the leg and diffused the situation without killing a man.

Every situation is different, but this looked like a good shoot.

 

[Kindrox]

When he heard a second person breaking in, he fired two warning shots low in the front door.

Sounds like the man did know what was on the other side of the door.

 

[skud_dusty]

I believe he followed all the basic rules. If you want to get technical, he did not know what his target was, or what was behind his target you are correct there.

But if you're firing downwards, where you know there is nothing underneath, wouldn't that be considered knowing your target and what is beyond?

Not sure what I'd do in this situation. I can see both sides of the argument.

 

[hnk45acp]

you forget that in the original story the guy shot "up" as a warning shot and accidently shot the intruder in the head and killed him.

 

[camslam]

you forget that in the original story the guy shot "up" as a warning shot and accidently shot the intruder in the head and killed him.

I agree that there is a slight difference between the first story and this one. However, the bigger issue is whether or not you shoot through a door in the first place. Whether it is high or low plays a part, but do you ever shoot through a door in the first place?

For those that say no, what if they are in your house and you are barricaded in your master bedroom with a shotgun, do you wait for them to bust through the master bedroom door before shooting? Or do you let them have it while they are trying to kick down that door?

The only hesitation I would have is caused by the legality according to our laws. As far as common sense and what is right, if someone is continually trying to bust through your door after you have warned them that you are armed and they should stop, I don't think I would wait for them to get through.

I know where they are, I know what they are doing, and I know what a 3" 00 buckshot shell or 3" 1 1/4 oz slug is going to do to them when it cruises through the door.

As usual every situation is different and requires thought and evaluation, but neither of these 2 situations should find fault with the home owner.

 

[broadsideofabarn]

Definitely the home owner was within his rights, but it's still not wise. He didn't KNOW his target or his backstop, regardless of his best-guess downward trajectory. He could have delivered a groin or arterial shot that would have caused death by blood loss, which is why shooting to wound isn't a legal defense, just a favor to the bad guy. Every pull of the trigger is lethal force, and needs to be treated that way.

He'll be okay, but in a lot of places, you'd be legally MUCH better off if you pulled the couch to barricade the door, then waited for him to come through. Yes, it'd expose you to more danger, but your defense against an overzealous prosecutor is much better once the door is no longer a barrier.

But in defense of loved ones, a reasonable person might well take the same risk he did.

 

[hnk45acp]

Depending on how crowded your area is, your neighbors are probably nosey/stupid enough to go outside and see what "all the ruckus is about". If you put a round thru your door and catch a neighbor what then will happen?

 

[Werewolf]

4 Rules this..
4 Rules that...



Those rules are designed to keep people safe in NON-Combat situations.
In real life and death situations the 4 rules become little more than minor guidelines.

 

[Acera]

I don't understand, it obviously was not the mans fault he was trying to break into the home, his alcohol level was three times the legal limit. We have got to have laws that prevent evil assault type liquor bottles from attacking innocent people like this poor man. Then he gets shot! What a shame. I am sure the reason he was on parole was a case of mistaken identity, or because of a overzealous DA just trying to make a case to boost his ego.




Me personally, I think that the gentle homeowner was very kind in his selection of shot placement. With some protection provided by the Castle Doctrine here in Texas, I don't believe I would have been so generous to the man involved in a criminal act, after dark, in my shot placement. But I know that my garage wall, car, another garage wall would have provided a sufficient backstop for any rounds fired at a guesstimated center mass.

The intruder is lucky he did not get killed.

 

[camslam]

you'd be legally MUCH better off if you pulled the couch to barricade the door, then waited for him to come through. Yes, it'd expose you to more danger, but your defense against an overzealous prosecutor is much better once the door is no longer a barrier.

Legally you may be better off, but let's be realistic. Legally you'd be better off if the situation didn't even happen. The reality is, it is late at night or any other time for that matter, you have 1 or more people trying to kick in your door and do who knows what, and someone has the idea to try to get their couch or fridge or something else in front of the door, and THEN go get their gun and wait for the people to break through before shooting them.

I don't think so. Not for most realistic situations.

Depending on how crowded your area is, your neighbors are probably nosey/stupid enough to go outside and see what "all the ruckus is about". If you put a round thru your door and catch a neighbor what then will happen?

No offense, but that is more far fetched than the first example. If people are trying to bust in a door, neighbors may peek out, but unless they have the means of defending themselves, they aren't going to come near the criminals. It is more than just a long shot that if you shoot straight through your door, that you are going to hit a neighbor. Unless the neighbors door is right across the hall from yours. Even then if you shoot while your door is being kicked, chances are, you will hit the kicker.

If it is policy in our country or in certain states that you wait until a person is IN your home, that is messed up. Thank goodness it isn't the law in my state.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Not sure if I'd shoot through a door - you'd have no idea what's on the other side of the door. Goes back to the old saying "Know your target and what's beyond your target."

Nor would I ever say it was a "warning shot."

 

[Thernlund]

I actually had a very similar thing happen to me.

About 10 years ago my wife and I were living in a small one story apartment building. Her daughter (my step daughter) was visiting and sleeping on our couch. My wife likes to rise early so was up around 4am.

Well, she woke me around 4:30am frantically talking about someone trying to get in. Ok, I think. I'll sort this. Probably nothing. I grab the pistol and head for the front door. As I'm heading down the hall the front door is directly ahead of me. I noticed that the knob was turning and the door is crackling like it's being pushed by someone on the other side. That woke me up right away. I took aim at the door as I approached, finger off trigger. I didn't know what the hell was on the other side, and I wasn't going to chance it with a 4 year old girl sleeping not 10 feet away.

I put on a shoe and braced the door with my foot. I opened it about 3 inches and there was a guy in nothing but boxer shorts. BIG guy. Now I'm no shrimp. I lift and consider myself in good shape. But this guy was massive. He looks at me and says, "What are you doing in my apartment?!" Reeked of booze. I said something like, "This isn't your apartment. Get lost before you get shot." His eyes opened right up and he began to go on about how I was in his place and if I looked behind me I'd find a whole bunch of Willie Nelson CDs. Pfff. He starts shoving the door even more trying to get by me.

Now I'm trying to keep this as cool as possible so as to not wake the daughter sleeping on the couch. But this guy start losing his patience with me and begins pushing hard on the door. My foot was bracing it, but he's big, and the force is beginning to buckle carpet. A switch flipped in my head. Go time. My plan was to shove him back with my off hand, pull the door open and take aim. So I push him back hard and he goes off balance and stumbles a little. I barely start to open to door and he starts looking around and saying things like, "Oh man. Oh. Whoa.", and he walks off. I never even displayed my weapon.

About 5 minutes later there's a gentle little tap at the door. It's this guy again. He hands me his wallet and starts apologizing like crazy, saying he didn't know he had the wrong place, ect, ect. I looked at his drivers license and found out where he lived, gave him back his wallet, and pointed him in the right direction (about 5 apartments down).

Needless to say, I was now awake. Heh. The daughter slept through the whole thing.

Later on as we were leaving to go do family type stuff I saw the guys car. It was an older Jag, but pretty nice. It was parked very neatly in his covered spot. The rub is that it looked like someone dropped a 10 ton I beam on it. Flat as a pancake. Good grief.


-T.

 

[camslam]

Good situational awareness Thernlund, luckily for you it worked out the way it did and nothing came of it. I would imagine most home owners are going to do whatever they can to diffuse a situation before using lethal force.

I wonder what would have happened if the guy was kicking the door in and being more aggresive.

That is why I think these threads are important, it helps me work through mentally what decision I would make, were I faced with that situation.