followed by belligerent drivers - post-event review

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mek42

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Mar 21, 2007
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upstate NY
Situation: There are two shopping centers across the street from each other and they share a common traffic light as an entrance / exit. I am on my way back to work after lunch (1st shift, middle of the day) and am unarmed (work policy, no weapons, not even in parking area). I am approaching the traffic light at around 10 mph, the light is green, so I go ahead and make the right turn needed to go back to work.

Across the street in the other shopping area is an SUV type vehicle carrying 3 or 4 late teen / early twenties white males, with the front passenger seat occupant standing up through a sunroof. That vehicle is approaching the traffic light to make a left.

We both approached the traffic light from opposite sides of the street at approximately the same time. Since my light was green and I was making a right turn, I had the right of way. I think that the SUV driver may not have been going to yield right of way since it seemed like he spiked his brakes in the middle of his left turn (this was from my peripheral vision, as my main focus was to the front while making my right turn).

The next thing I know, the SUV is behind me (very, very close - close enough that a hard downshift might have induced a rear end incident) with the driver and occupants yelling and delivering obscene gestures in my general direction.

I didn't want these yahoos following me back to work and my threat meter was starting to ping. I opened my cell phone, entered the digits for 911 and had my thumb on the dial button while holding the phone so it was clearly visible through the back glass of the vehicle.

Meanwhile I was trying to decide what to tell the 911 operator if I decided a call needed to be made (i.e. if I got 1/3 to 1/2 way to work and they were still behind me). What I had decided on was "Hello, this is <my name> and my NY Pistol Permit number is <blah>. I am being followed by a vehicle containing several belligerent young men and am becoming quite nervous. Could I please receive some assistance?"

Thankfully, they turned into a fast-food establishment literally seconds before my "make the call" decision point.

What could or should I have done differently? If I did end up feeling the need to call 911, was my planned introduction to the situation acceptable?

(For the record, this incident happened late last summer - I was reading another thread here and was reminded of this event.)

Thank you!
 
I think you did well, under the circumstances. If you had made the call, though, why on earth would you have told the operator your permit number, or even that you had a permit? If I understood your post correctly, you were unarmed, so whether you had a permit or not was completely irrelevant. Moreover, it could have led to someone (the 911 operator or responding officers) thinking you had been threatening the occupants of the other vehicle with a weapon -- not good.:uhoh:
 
Yeah, what he /\ said. I'd have left the pistol permit part out.

Situations like that, if it is possible, head toward the police station. If you turn into their parking lot I doubt the drama will follow.
 
Just an impression, but when I read the first post, it seemed that he planned to give the pistol permit number in order to make the 911 operator take the call seriously.

If the operator thinks the situation might escalate to involve deadly force, a patrol car might appear sooner than if the operator thinks the worst that might happen is the OP gets beaten up / maimed / crippled. No one gets shot, so no big deal.

I agree it is not a tactic I would use - concealed is concealed, and if I'm unarmed I have no need to discuss my concealed handgun license.

Turning into the parking lot of a police station seems the best course, if you know where one is.
 
I would have pulled 911 them so fast they would have been crying to their mommy. I CCW all the time and will call the police at the slightest hint of road rage, or if I even suspect your are DUI. 40 years on the road has taught me that it is better to call the authorities than to let them go and destroy someone else, and wish you had.
 
I'll add my agreement to the "Why give your permit number on the call" sentiment.

Some operators would interpret it as "he is telling me he is armed and about to recklessly start shooting because someone is behind him in traffic"

Another school of thought is that it somehow makes you more important/credible/"official."


Neither are very good viewpoints.


-- John
 
Just an impression, but when I read the first post, it seemed that he planned to give the pistol permit number in order to make the 911 operator take the call seriously.

If the operator thinks the situation might escalate to involve deadly force, a patrol car might appear sooner than if the operator thinks the worst that might happen is the OP gets beaten up / maimed / crippled. No one gets shot, so no big deal.

I agree it is not a tactic I would use - concealed is concealed, and if I'm unarmed I have no need to discuss my concealed handgun license.

Turning into the parking lot of a police station seems the best course, if you know where one is.

This is what I was thinking. In the other post I read, someone mentioned that it was a bad practice to amplify the threat level in order to quicken police response time. That made me think of this situation. The other thread specifically mentioned stating, "... and it looks like he (the suspicious character) might be armed."

What I was planning to do with my CCW permit is definitely less gray than the above example, but it is stretching the factual truth a bit - by letting the 911 operator think I am armed. On the other hand, I was nervous that something more aggressive might happen.

The event took place so soon to taking a new job in a town I had never been in that I don't think I did know where the local police station was. My take home lesson from this - within the first week of a new job, learn where the nearest police station is just for these sorts of events.

Thanks! Especially for pointing out that what I thought were positives of quickly identifying myself as a CCW holder are, in fact, double edged swords and could just as easily be taken negatively.
 
The one thing you have to remember while driving! Especially in Orlando, so many of your fellow drivers are lost! So you tend to wait a lot, even when you have the right of way.

And you can guarantee that teens up on the seat, and upper body out of sun roof would have cell phones 911 ing! And not just yours.

My impression would be, drunk, no seat belts. That alone would get the dispatchers attention, "They are weaving all over the road (your impression!) and one is hanging way out of the SUV, through the sun roof"

Mention you have a pistol permit, and the responding unit (or units!) would be looking for you.
 
The event took place so soon to taking a new job in a town I had never been in that I don't think I did know where the local police station was.

Best things to offer if you are going to call 911 are the location, the problem you're reporting, and a good, solid description. Always know where you are! If they ask for your name, and if you choose to give it, then fine. Otherwise, you're just the citizen reporting the incident and no contact is usually made.

No need to offer up your permit number. If the situation you're calling about warrants it, the dispatcher or 911 call receiver may ask you if you are armed accordingly during the gathering of information. If you're reporting someone prowling around outside your house, you may offer up that you're armed so the responding units know. Otherwise, no need to rattle off your permit number whatsoever. I'd rather know which direction the van went and a plate, if possible. That's what the police are looking for, not you because you called them in.
 
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And how long did it take you to memorize your pistol permit number? and why?

Mek42 wrote:
It is only 4 digits.

Unless you got your permit really early, or they're not sequential, it's really sad that your permit only has four digits. But NY's laws are sad.

-Sans Authoritas
 
I would think that their reckless tailgating driving and passengers standing on seat with torso out of sunroof, would be good enough reason to alert a 911 dispatcher to a serious reckless driving infraction - enough to get the attention of a roaming LE and no need for offering your gun permit # - that would only send up an un-called for red flag that might get you into trouble.
 
I would think that their reckless tailgating driving and passengers standing on seat with torso out of sunroof, would be good enough reason to alert a 911 dispatcher to a serious reckless driving infraction

What he said. I keep my local dispatch (non-emergency number) on speed dial. It probably bugged the crap out of them but I called quite frequently when my job entailed being on the road a lot. I've called in gross speeders, reckless drivers (your guys), drunk drivers, etc etc. I've also called in disabled vehicles where the driver was missing (probably walking to a pay phone) but the car wasn't in a very safe place.

It doesn't do any harm to call and the area patrol wakes up a bit and keeps their eyes open. If you *have* to call 911 because you don't have a local dispatch number if it's not a hurry case I usually say right up front "this is non-emergency so put me on hold if you have to"
 
I would have been surprised if something HAD happened. Just a bunch of jerk teens. You were mobile, so it would be hard to justify shooting someone. Mobility is key, so there was no reason to "worry". Be concerned and watchful, but not worry.

I was at a stop light in the Galleria area in Houston a few years ago. This car started RAMMING and backing up and RAMMING and backing up (like 7 times) the car in front of him...

I wonder what that story was about. I would have been VERY WORRIED in that instance.
 
I had a similar instance last year. 2 20 somethings of obvious athletic build turned right in front me at a light. I honked, they flipped and the game was on. It got to the point that at a stop in traffic, he pulled into the oncoming lane to park next to me to get out of his car.

All I could think was "Please... don't make me shoot you"... luckily the car in front of me moved a little and I took off. This had been going on for 3 to 4 minutes and it was at that time I dialed 911. The next time they pulled up I was talking to the dispatcher... they saw me on the phone, slammed on the brakes and took off the other way.

I told the dispatcher this information and she asked do you still want me to send a patrolman? No need, the threat is gone and I don't want to file a report. She then said - in her beautiful Texas accent - "Now don't you go chasing after them kids, you hear me!?" yes Ma'am.

In hindsight (ain't it always better?) I should have called 911 at the first threat of violence and believe me... there were plenty of vocal, loud and detailed threats!
 
I've been driving for about 15 years (later start than some ;)), and in the just last 3 years have called 911 more than in the 12 preceding.

- To report road blockages / dangerous conditions which don't yet seem to be on the radar of any local police, etc. A few weeks back I was on 95 near Philadelphia when the wind caught a big barrel (one of those, I think, 80gal plastic barrels often seen as event trashcans, among other things), blew it what I think I am very conservatively estimating at least 50 feet in the air. You should have seen us (drivers, various lanes) swerving to avoid the fall, and then the bounce!

- To report unsafe driving. Once it was for a police car that was weaving in and out of his lane, doing less than 30 (and slightly more ... and slightly less ... and slightly more ...) in the passing lane. Can't recall if that was Wyoming, Montana, or one of the Dakotas, but it was an empty highway and good conditions, I was wondering if the trouble was with the vehicle or the driver, never did find out, but felt glad to have told someone. Maybe the officer was suffering diabetic shock or something.

And when I was the target of an angry car chaser (I hadn't run a light he evidently wanted me to, so he chased me with his car, and missed ramming me in a parking lot only when I slammed my brakes), I *didn't* have my phone with me. I carry it with me more now.

timothy
 
Hello, this is <my name> and my NY Pistol Permit number is <blah>.

mek42, giving a pistol permit number to a 911 dispatcher is a bad, bad idea. (I used to be a 911 dispatcher, for many years.) My reasoning: Even though you had said you were "unarmed", why on earth would you have given me your pistol permit number? Whoever dispatched the call wouldn't be worth his weight in salt if he/she didn't advise the police: "Caller possibly armed." And how do you think the police are going to approach the scene, then?

Now, I'm not fussing at you by any means, but I'm showing you just what you'd likely have to deal with given such a scenario. So it's really a good thing you didn't make that call.

My advice to anyone making a 911 call: give the information that you have to give to describe the situation and/or what the dispatcher asks of you. Do give your name and phone number, if you're the complainant, but don't volunteer anything.
 
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"Hello, this is <my name> and my NY Pistol Permit number is <blah>.

Yeah I agree there is no need for this, especially when unarmed. As if this gives you some more authority or something? :confused:

In the situation you were in, you should have simply said there was a SUV (describe) full of aggressive youths, they were recklessly driving, trying to ram your fender, and they were a general threat to all people on the road. (and describe where you were)
 
In Utah when dealing with a LEO you are required to let them know that you have a permit and if you are carrying, it is supposed to be the first thing you do. That said I don't know how it would apply to a 911 operator.
 
My hats off to you for being able to remember your permit number, even if it was 4 numbers.

I forget my bank pin number, the year I was married and sometimes forget the year I was born. I can never keep numbers straight. :)

Chris
 
In Utah when dealing with a LEO you are required to let them know that you have a permit and if you are carrying, it is supposed to be the first thing you do. That said I don't know how it would apply to a 911 operator.

Ditto for Texas. Hand over DL, it is with the CWP. It is for face to face meetings only and does NOT apply to any phone conversations. FWIW I have never had any peace officer tell me to exit the vehicle, put it away, lock it up, or anything other than 'just leave it where it is, ok?'.
 
you should have just e-braked your car sideways in the middle of the street, jumped out and drawn down on em over the hood hollywood style...

naw, you did fine...
 
My hats off to you for being able to remember your permit number, even if it was 4 numbers.

I forget my bank pin number, the year I was married and sometimes forget the year I was born. I can never keep numbers straight.

Quick! Without looking, what four numbers are in your 'nym?

:neener:
 
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