Food 4 Thought Friday: Defensive AR’s

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Get a "necktie" that you always have around your neck = short and no more than 6 pounds. In real SHTF moments I think those officials with rulers will be calling in sick , :) MAYBE you could get a good running Necktie going for $700 today , with no optics. With a good necktie all you need is as much ammo as you can carry and a good pocket pistol to hide out just in case.
 
chicharrones said:
Although this thought exercise is to buy one AR at a fixed budget or buy two ARs for the same fixed budget, I wouldn't buy a $1,500 AR or two $750 ARs. I'd still be buying one AR in the $700 starting price range.
Click to expand...

What I meant was... those that poo-poo a $350 AR as being unworthy would rather spend $700 on one, moving that idea forward while maintaining the '2 or 1' concept, but with a better base rifle. You could do the same with pistols... 2x $500 1911's, or 1x $1000 1911, etc.

EDIT: And don't misunderstand me... I'm not criticizing anyone's answer or opinion, I'm having fun with the question, too. It does open up a lot of doors... :)
 
Charlie98 said:
What I meant was... those that poo-poo a $350 AR as being unworthy would rather spend $700 on one, moving that idea forward while maintaining the '2 or 1' concept, but with a better base rifle. You could do the same with pistols... 2x $500 1911's, or 1x $1000 1911, etc.

EDIT: And don't misunderstand me... I'm not criticizing anyone's answer or opinion, I'm having fun with the question, too. It does open up a lot of doors... :)
Click to expand...

I'm fully onboard with what you mean. Because of me always wanting variety and familiarity with as many firearm types as possible, I don't own exact duplicates of any firearm. I'd rather buy a few spare wearable parts for each gun than have two guns that can share parts.
 
Speaking of things that can share parts, I have done this with automobiles.

Years ago, my wife had a 1999 Honda Civic. Several years later I got my oldest stepdaughter a 2000 Honda Civic, because I liked the reliability and cheap parts prices of the 1999 model when it needed repairs.

One day, my wife wrecked her Civic, and since it only had liability insurance, I pulled the best parts from it and installed them on the 2000 where it needed them. Tires/Wheels, Battery, AC compressor. Then the 1999 got sold for scrap.

A decade after that, I got my stepson and daughter a 2004 and 2003 Toyota Corolla for the same reasons. Reliable and cheap to fix cars that I can make one better one out of two if one gets wrecked.

I'm the family mechanic and car guy, so I get a strong say in these things.

The difference here compared to this AR exercise is the cars had a driver for each one. So, no real redundancy, just double the cars for double the "operators".

If I was looking at this question for myself buying two cars or one car, I'm not going to buy two identical cars for myself in the name of redundancy or stashing one of them for backup. I'd buy one car in better condition rather than two cars in average condition.

Of course, this isn't exactly apples to apples, but I've dealt with this before on a different scale. :)
 
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I response to the OP's question, I have not been lucky enough to find any 350$ AR's yet. That said a pair of S+W MP,or comparable, versions in the 450-500 price range would be a a good idea.
 
All you need for an AR is a small parts kit = bolt carrier group (or at least a Bolt ) and small parts kit with small springs and pins and detents , once the gun is set up and proven . I learned the two is one andd one is none thing from Louis Awerbuck 25 years ago FWIW.
 
I don’t know that given the price range, there’s much different in the two. If the money went into quality parts then all three ought to be functional and so the odds favor 2 over 1 *all else being equal, which we know is not the case. Carefully adding more value in critical areas ought to favor the more expensive rifle, but again only if good (monetary) choices are made.

Optics wise I’m more comfortable with an RDS, I’d take an Eotech if it’s player’s choice. Dot sights are of course battery dependent, scopes vary from fragile to near bombproof, and irons, true irons, are still held together by itty bitty machine screws. Again at social work distances there may be less careful aiming than is optimal so I don’t know that there’s a significant speed advantage.

HD distances and the odds favoring it working so long as a person can competently manipulate and shoot, throw all 3 in a pile and pick one at random. There are hundreds of other fighting tools in any household and more ways to train in beyond the gun.
 
I don't really have a feel for the reliability of low end ARs, having run the same two high end ARs (one large frame, one small) for years and only having experienced one part failure that occurred during maintenance due to a faulty tool, not during operation. My wife has a low end AR, but its round count is low and there have been no failures. I'm going to assume all three are reasonably reliable.

No defensive rifle scenario requires particular accuracy. If they're more than 100y away, the likelihood that I can legally shoot them is essentially zero. So while annoying, a 10 MOA weapon would be perfectly usable.

The sights/optic is the same and not included in the price. So all rifles are presumably accurate enough, equally aimable, and as far as my knowledge goes essentially equally reliable. In other words, all three guns are equally good for the purpose.

The area is "relatively remote" which suggests my storage cost for a 2nd rifle is effectively zero. There's a small maintenance cost, but unused rifles in firing condition require little to no maintenance so that's not a big deal.

I'll take two.
 
Varminterror said:
Just a fun thought experiment at close of business on a Friday. I don’t usually indulge this type of silly stuff, but a conversation about business operational risk management versus inventory cost management today - for some reason - hit me squarely upside of my “gun brain,” and I thought it might elicit some interesting discussion.

Parameters:

• Home defense on a budget
• Relatively remote area
• Any one of those scenarios people like to discuss such your choice is an AR-15 carbine with irons, red dot, or LPVO
• No other purpose specified for the rifle(s)
• Solitary person (context for which makes sense later)

Given these options only, would you consider yourself better armed with:

A) A single $700 AR-15
B) Two identical $350 AR’s

Which of these two options, and why?

ETA:

• Optics not included in price. Dealers choice of optics, but consider the same optic is used on all rifles. Not giving an unfair advantage to two rifles by using two different optics (relatively different purposes)

• Consider both price classes are bound by the same purpose design. Whatever the HD/SD AR should look like in your mind is effectively, within the budgetary constraints both classes would look like, i.e. comparing a pair of $350 mil-clone-ish 16” Carbines to a $700 mil-clone-ish 16” carbine.
Click to expand...
There is no way to assemble or buy an AR in a configuration that I find suited to this task for and it would not be a 16" AR. It would be a suppressed 11.5" AR with either an Aimpoint T2 or a Leupold LPV and a light. If an SBR, it would have a Slimline stock & handguard and a BCM Gunfighter pistol grip. If a pistol, it would have an SBA3 & Split fix. RE would be the 10 position MagPul version of the A5 stuffed with an A5H2 buffer & Sprinco blue action spring. An AR in this configuration is handy, soft shooting and much easier on the ears. It can can reach 300 yards or more.

If the 16 inch barrel requirement is a hard & fast rule, the AR would be the same as above except for a 14.5" barrel pinned & welded to 16". Sights would be an Aimpoint T2, FSB & KAC BUIS. This makes for a handy and soft shooting AR with greater effective range. Not nearly as easy on the ears!

I have ARs in both configurations. Although rural, where I live isn't remote, but I do travel to remote areas in the motorhome. The AR best suited for this is the suppressed shorty. Second choice is the pinned 14.5".

Given the choice between one AR configured the way I want it, or two half price ARs, I'll take the AR configured the way I want it. There's no way I could get two ARs configured the way I want them for what I have invested in just one of my ARs.

In either case, if you have one AR or two- Keep good spare parts on hand

To turn it around, would I trade my two ARs for one AR worth twice as much? I don't think I would.
 
I would probably take 2 $350 budget guns (PSA's) over 1 Ruger AR556 or Windham 5.56, cuz those are right around $700-$750 ish.

I know my BCM is better made, better quality checks, etc... but when I shoot it it shoots just like my PSA's. After getting right around just over $1000 into my BCM topped with an aimpoint I had a new found appreciation for my sub $500 PSA w/ PA micro dot. I dont think you get all that much of a return on spending the extra money, as much as I hate to say it. Budget guns are accurate, reliable and cheap. I hear people say they would not trust them defensively. I would.
 
Assuming that I had a $700 budget and I had to spend the whole budget on rifle(s), I'd go for two rifles. I could and have built rifles for around $350 that run well. They weren't anything impressive to look at, but they ran. I'd go for two because too much is, more often than not, better than not enough.
 
Varminterror said:
I’ve built literally hundreds of AR’s. $350 has been a realistic minimum price point for a complete AR Mil-clone-ish carbine, sans optics, for a majority years out of the last 20 years.
Click to expand...

Yep. None of the parts are gonna say magpul, troy, daniel defense, etc...but it's not too much of a stretch to build a couple of good ARs for that budget. Now, if you changed the rules a bit and said that I had a week or two to build them and I could source used parts, some of those parts just may have a brand name on them.
 
DustyGmt said:
I would probably take 2 $350 budget guns (PSA's) over 1 Ruger AR556 or Windham 5.56, cuz those are right around $700-$750 ish.

I know my BCM is better made, better quality checks, etc... but when I shoot it it shoots just like my PSA's. After getting right around just over $1000 into my BCM topped with an aimpoint I had a new found appreciation for my sub $500 PSA w/ PA micro dot. I dont think you get all that much of a return on spending the extra money, as much as I hate to say it. Budget guns are accurate, reliable and cheap. I hear people say they would not trust them defensively. I would.
Click to expand...
Budget ARs aren't the train wreck some make them out to be, but my personal experience is that a $1000 AR (one made right, not one with it's price inflated with added features) is worth the money. Budget ARs use marginal springs, carbine weight buffers, inconsistent barrels and are often over gassed.

- Marginal Springs. Too many budget ARs (and even some quality brand ARs) use extractor springs that are marginal at best. Marginal extractor springs have been the bane of the AR family of weapons from almost the beginning. Marginal are insidious because the problems they cause often don't show up until something raises carrier speeds. Raised carrier speeds places extra stress on the extractor. The spring goes from marginal to inadequate and causes changes to ejection and malfunctions many mistake as due to over gassing. Time and money (trips to the range, expenditure of test ammo, buying heavier buffers, springs and various magazines to experiment with) is expended trying to solve the problem. What usually happens is a heavier buffer, stiffer spring or lighter pressure ammo slows the carrier speed enough the spring rate is adequate. It remains so until the spring starts wearing and the problems start again. Other springs that don't last as long in budget ARs are action & hammer springs. The margin of savings is now smaller.

- Carbine Weight Buffers. Budget ARs come with carbine weight (3 steel weights, 2.something ozs) which are too light. The rifle buffer weighs about 5.3 ozs. Colt started with the carbine weight buffer because the M4 was intended to be a PDW, a small weapon for support troops that was more effective than a pistol. It was meant to be shot a little and carried a lot. But it turned out the carbine buffer was too light and replaced with the heavier H buffer, the H2 buffer in the M4A1.

When testing carbine, H & H2 buffers in an AR with an adjustable gas block, I found that the carbine, H and H2 buffers gave full function with the gas block on the same setting. The difference was in felt recoil. Carrier speed was quicker with the light buffer and the reciprocating mass bottomed out sharply at the end of the stroke. Recoil felt sharp- sharp enough that if I hadn't know better, I would have believed the test AR was over gassed. Recoil was softer with the H buffer and softer still with the H2.

Combine the quicker speeds from using a carbine buffer and a marginal spring, there will be trouble. Replace the carbine buffer with the proper buffer and more testing cuts into the savings even further.

-Inconsistent Barrel Precision. My first budget barrel was great! Good precision with almost every type of ammo used. The also had good precision but it's grossly over sized gas port (.083 on a 10.5" barrel) was in the wrong location. I had to modify the gas block to keep from blocking the gas port. The last budget barrel has been just so-so in precision and the gas port just enough over sized to need an adjustable gas block. You can't be sure what you're going to get with a budget barrel. The performance between one quality barrel and the next is much more consistent. (You, in the back- you have a question? BCM barrels? Oh. Well yes, there is some evidence their precision isn't as consistent as some would like.)

A barrel with so-so precision leads to more ammo testing to find the right load. Over sized gas ports means money spent on adjustable gas ports or Micro Ports or EZ Tune gas tubes. More ammo, range trips and time for testing means even fewer savings.

If a shooter knows what to look for and how to troubleshoot and accurately interpret the results, much of the aggravation from budget ARs can be alleviated. For example, when buying a PSA do yourself a favor. Before assembling, replace the extractor spring with a Colt or Sprinco M4 spring, toss the carbine buffer and skip ahead right to the H2. My PSA extractor spring was weak and gave me fits right out of the box.

But when all is said & done, assembling an AR that I know will work, it's gonna cost me at least $900 without any Gucci parts.
 
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Varminterror said:
I’ve built literally hundreds of AR’s. $350 has been a realistic minimum price point for a complete AR Mil-clone-ish carbine, sans optics, for a majority years out of the last 20 years.
Click to expand...

TonyAngel said:
Yep. None of the parts are gonna say magpul, troy, daniel defense, etc...but it's not too much of a stretch to build a couple of good ARs for that budget. Now, if you changed the rules a bit and said that I had a week or two to build them and I could source used parts, some of those parts just may have a brand name on them.
Click to expand...

Hold on now! If we're limited to ARs using M4 furniture, count me out. I find M4 furniture to be uncomfortable.
 
MistWolf said:
Budget ARs aren't the train wreck some make them out to be, but my personal experience is that a $1000 AR (one made right, not one with it's price inflated with added features) is worth the money. Budget ARs use marginal springs, carbine weight buffers, inconsistent barrels and are often over gassed.

- Marginal Springs. Too many budget ARs (and even some quality brand ARs) use extractor springs that are marginal at best. Marginal extractor springs have been the bane of the AR family of weapons from almost the beginning. Marginal are insidious because the problems they cause often don't show up until something raises carrier speeds. Raised carrier speeds places extra stress on the extractor. The spring goes from marginal to inadequate and causes changes to ejection and malfunctions many mistake as due to over gassing. Time and money (trips to the range, expenditure of test ammo, buying heavier buffers, springs and various magazines to experiment with) is expended trying to solve the problem. What usually happens is a heavier buffer, stiffer spring or lighter pressure ammo slows the carrier speed enough the spring rate is adequate. It remains so until the spring starts wearing and the problems start again. Other springs that don't last as long in budget ARs are action & hammer springs. The margin of savings is now smaller.

- Carbine Weight Buffers. Budget ARs come with carbine weight (3 steel weights, 2.something ozs) which are too light. The rifle buffer weighs about 5.3 ozs. Colt started with the carbine weight buffer because the M4 was intended to be a PDW, a small weapon for support troops that was more effective than a pistol. It was meant to be shot a little and carried a lot. But it turned out the carbine buffer was too light and replaced with the heavier H buffer, the H2 buffer in the M4A1.

When testing carbine, H & H2 buffers in an AR with an adjustable gas block, I found that the carbine, H and H2 buffers gave full function with the gas block on the same setting. The difference was in felt recoil. Carrier speed was quicker with the light buffer and the reciprocating mass bottomed out sharply at the end of the stroke. Recoil felt sharp- sharp enough that if I hadn't know better, I would have believed the test AR was over gassed. Recoil was softer with the H buffer and softer still with the H2.

Combine the quicker speeds from using a carbine buffer and a marginal spring, there will be trouble. Replace the carbine buffer with the proper buffer and more testing cuts into the savings even further.

-Inconsistent Barrel Precision. My first budget barrel was great! Good precision with almost every type of ammo used. The also had good precision but it's grossly over sized gas port (.083 on a 10.5" barrel) was in the wrong location. I had to modify the gas block to keep from blocking the gas port. The last budget barrel has been just so-so in precision and the gas port just enough over sized to need an adjustable gas block. You can't be sure what you're going to get with a budget barrel. The performance between one quality barrel and the next is much more consistent. (You, in the back- you have a question? BCM barrels? Oh. Well yes, there is some evidence their precision isn't as consistent as some would like.)

A barrel with so-so precision leads to more ammo testing to find the right load. Over sized gas ports means money spent on adjustable gas ports or Micro Ports or EZ Tune gas tubes. More ammo, range trips and time for testing means even fewer savings.

If a shooter knows what to look for and how to troubleshoot and accurately interpret the results, much of the aggravation from budget ARs can be alleviated. For example, when buying a PSA do yourself a favor. Before assembling, replace the extractor spring with a Colt or Sprinco M4 spring, toss the carbine buffer and skip ahead right to the H2. My PSA extractor spring was weak and gave me fits right out of the box.

But when is all said & done, when assembling an AR that I know will work, I know it's gonna cost me at least $900 without any Gucci parts.
Click to expand...
Point taken. Good point, I agree.
 
I can’t say for sure but knowing me I’d go for the $700.00 AR. Not an exact correlation but here goes. My feet have hurt my whole life. Didn’t know why until my early 20’s when I was told to buy shoes from a cantankerous old salesman that supposedly had forgotten more than any other shoe salesman ever knew. It was true. He measured my feet and said, your feet have hurt you your whole life haven’t they? He explained the biggest reason was my feet measured 10.5 but my arch needed a size 16 and of course no footwear is made to that measurement and the icing is that my width is EEE so very little footwear is wide enough for me.

He sent me to a podiatrist for orthotics and when I came back to get shoes(dress shoes-I wore suits to work) he put me in a pair of $300.00 clunky Johnston & Murphy Oxfords. A lot of money in 1981. In addition he told me to come back my next pay day because I needed at least two pair. From that day my feet hurt but not nearly as much. An ancillary benefit was my dress shoes with resoling lasted five or six years so in the end they cost less than cheaper shoes. Which is the corollary to why I would probably get the $700.00 AR.

To this day I buy the absolute best footwear I can and scrimp on other things.Some of the boots in the picture are 20 years old and they get worn a lot.

In my experience good quality usually costs less when it’s all said and done.
Thank you all for letting me bore you.
YbI9V4O.jpg
 
I'd go with 2, vet one for reliability and stash it for SD SHTF and use the other for training. I've done a similar thing although neither is a $350 AR and they're not quite exact duplicates.
 
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