Food 4 Thought Friday: Defensive AR’s

[mustanger98]

I've been in and out of discussions like this for the past 20 years. I've generally been reluctant to get into AR-15's. Who needs this range of doubts of what works when a Mini-14, which used to be less expensive, could do the same job just as well. (The Mini-14, especially in its earlier iterations, carries its own off-putting debate.)

Based on what I hear lately, if somebody asked what AR-15 to get, I'd point them to the M&P-15. Then, I'd advise them to get an A2 carry handle and A2 stock/buffer assembly... so now it's an AR-15A4 Carbine. Yeah, I know, the price started above $350 and added about $100. S&W's been making guns a long time. You'd think they figured it out by now. But, I'm sure somebody will have something disagreeable to say about that.

 

[Casefull]

The elephant in the room in this discussion is that major manufacturers of what some of you consider high-end AR‘s get their parts from the same place and same manufacturers as some of the less expensive kits put out by companies like Psa. I understand that the more expensive rifles have tighter fitting upper lower and better barrels as well as hopefully bolted together by a more experienced armorer than me. Once you come to the understanding that most of the expense of a manufactured gun part is in the machining And or assembly. It doesn’t make sense for anyone to use inferior quality or to machine a part out of spec. If the cheap firearm cycles and runs well and is reasonably accurate the odds that it will continue to do so for thousands of rounds are very high. That is one of the realities of the AR 15 that make it an incredible firearm. Even if you have a bad part it’s an easy fix.

 

[Skylerbone]

I’ve probably come off as a jerk, that probably fits as often as not, so this is me apologizing and again attempting to explain my own reasoning behind some of these controversial issues.

First I’ll admit I have brand preferences like most folks and there are parts I trust based on my experience or recommendations from others. Some of these parts represent the least expensive option in their category ($25 Anderson stripped lowers I’ve purchased) and some nearly as expensive as can be had ($100 Radian Raptor Side Discharge charging handle).

I justify some purchases by want, others by need, but most are known quantities to me. Occasionally I wander off script to try something new with mixed results. A flat wire buffer spring instead of a Sprinco, a Fortis CH instead of a Phase 5. Most of these purchases are novelty; yes they offer an “upgrade” over milspec but aren’t quantifiably “more reliable”.

Now the question of cataloged data has been asked and the reply was no, in a round about way and refuted with the same request. But here’s the bit that bites me wrong and gets me responding in ill manner: when something is asserted, “xyz are cheap and therefore bad” the burden of proof lies with the author and NOT with the reader. Anecdotal evidence is fine, that is often all we can offer lacking hard numbers from manufacturers on defect rates. It is not however what anyone should take as absolute.

Disagree? Remington, Ruger, Winchester, Beretta, Sig, T/C, Smith & Wesson just to name a few who have recalled products. Does having sold them forever leave them unreliable? If so, Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Chrysler, and on and on until you can’t own a gun or drive a car.

Back to price point, and again I’m repeating what I’ve said, not every “value added” purchase is synonymous with increased reliability. A few examples from a few of my ARs.


Luth-AR’s “The Paddle” bolt catch. $19 ea. without hardware. A standard catch can be had for about $5. Easier to manipulate for me? Yes. More reliable than milspec? No.


Magpul MOE grip and Ergo Suregrip. One is $12 the other $27. Both more expensive than a $5 A2. Better grip texture and feel? Yes. More reliable? No.


Anderson upper and Aero Precision upper. One was $38 and the other $60. They came from the same forge. Finish is a dead heat to me. Both cheaper than the pair of $135 (each) Aero M4E1 Enhanced uppers in the first photo. Any of them magical? No.



Recognizing there are no unimportant parts to a firearm is one thing. Believing I own a Pinto instead of an Audi 5000 (oops that lawsuit was a doozie) is missing the mark. I drive an Expedition, an XLT, and in my analogy the Platinum Edition owners are claiming my vehicle isn’t reliable enough to drive with its unheated cloth seats. Creature comforts make the rifle yours, but they do not always make it more reliable.

 

[Browning]

Since we're on the subject of Anderson’s (some of you have mentioned them repeatedly), let’s talk about them.

- With some Anderson lowers some brands of magazines (PMags) won’t drop free. I’ve run into that. Mag well was too tight.

- There’s a well known reset issue on their fire control group (specifically their hammer) that doesn’t allow it to reset.

First rd fires, second one won’t fire unless you push the trigger forward with your trigger finger. My Fire Chief had an Anderson AR with that issue. I changed out the hammer with a RRA hammer I had floating around in my spare parts box. That fixed the issue. Who knows what problems will crop up down the road.

- Know what this is? It wasn’t invented because of companies like Colt or BCM, it was invented because of companies like Anderson.



- I’ve seen oversized trigger pin holes and oval trigger pin holes from them as well.

- A buddy of mine sent me a pic of his receiver where the holes weren’t drilled period.

You talk about putting whatever lipstick you like on a pig (I’m with you on the Radian charging handle and Ergo grip ... I like both of them and have them on several AR’s), but it’s still a pig. :Shrug

You're talking about sticking an $80 charging handle on a lower that costs $34 though. Not sure how that makes sense.

Once you see enough of this stuff any confidence you might have had in their workmanship is pretty much gone. I’m not sure why I’m seeing it and you aren’t. Can’t account for the discrepancy, but it’s what I’ve been seeing.

I don’t trust them at all. You’re free to, but I don’t.

 

[Demi-human]

The problem child is almost always an Anderson or PSA lower with cheap, bottom of the barrel parts installed.

Were these purchased complete or built at home?

What am I looking at in the picture of the receiver extensions?

let’s talk about them.

No one wants to talk about them, save you. The idea is not of a specific brand. Yet you don’t like those and all of the “good ones” you bandied about are more than the top limit.
You seem upset for not having a dog in the fight.

My Fire Chief had an Anderson AR with that issue.

Was this one purchased complete, with bottom barrel parts, or did he install them?

A buddy of mine sent me a pic of his receiver where the holes weren’t drilled period.

Those are 80% lowers. They need to be milled at home.
He probably got a great deal on it...

 

[Browning]

Were these purchased complete or built at home?

Mix of both.

What am I looking at in the picture of the receiver extensions?

What picture are you looking at?

No one wants to talk about them, save you. The idea is not of a specific brand. Yet you don’t like those and all of the “good ones” you bandied about are more than the top limit.
You seem upset for not having a dog in the fight.

More like the bottom limit is $350. That means BCA or Anderson.

Both of those suck. Why would I care about having a dog in the fight? That’s just a bad alternative.

Was this one purchased complete, with bottom barrel parts, or did he install them?

He purchased that complete.

Those are 80% lowers. They need to be milled at home.
He probably got a great deal on it...

Nope, that was purchased as a 100% complete.

Other buyers received Anderson lowers from the same batch.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/A_Tale_of_Two_Lowers_from_Anderson_Mfg_/4-630915/?

You just obviously aren’t familiar with the issues they have.

 

[Demi-human]

Would the idea of “Blemished” rifles be a good analogy?
I looked at the increase in technology and finish for the higher rifle. What if they truly were mil spec identical?
(Yes, I did totally miss that in the original riddle. My more expensive one in my mind was nitrided out the wazoo, not milspec phosphate.)

Two green and black, Colt sixty whatevers, certified functional $600 “blems”.
VS
One perfect Colt sixty who cares, $1200.
(Going rate for these in Michigan.)

Identical, allegedly, save for price and the cast that hangs about the title “Blemished”.

I don’t know if that’s quite what @Varminterror means.
If it is, then my previous answer changes to his Cheating Plan.
Get two, sell one, carry on.

 

[Demi-human]

What picture are you looking at?

The one with the receiver extensions in it...

Nope, that was purchased as a 100% complete.

How did they get the parts in it?

You just obviously aren’t familiar with the issues they have.

Clearly.


Anyway, not trying to change anyone’s mind. Just had questions. I think I’ve discovered what I need to know.

 

[Browning]

The one with the receiver extensions in it...

This one?



It’s a comparison of the buffer retaining pins between Anderson and BCM. The detent hole for the Anderson isn’t in the correct spot.

The BCM shows where it’s supposed to be.

How did they get the parts in it?

They didn’t.

It was bought as a stripped receiver. I think he returned it.

Clearly.

Anyway, not trying to change anyone’s mind. Just had questions.

Yep, no problem.

 

[Varminterror]

“Not for nuthin’” as some folks say... But Daniel Defense recalled a couple tens of thousands of DDM4’s because the fire control groups were doubling - despite a $1500-1800 price point. LMT’s had a reputation for a long while for underpowered recoil springs, again, a top line, expensive model. Bravo Company often cited for relatively poor precision... Seek, and ye shall find...

What we often see when high dollar rifles fail - supporters will cling tightly to the old excuse, “every manufacturer lets out a bad one from time to time,” or “any mechanical assembly can fail occasionally.” Writing off the real-word failures as flukes. When the same failure rate occurs with lesser priced brands, they’re discarded in total as badly made.

 

[Browning]

I’d have to see some evidence of that. (DD and BCM)

Only ones I’ve seen with repeated issues are Anderson, BCA and to a lesser extent PSA.

 

[Varminterror]

- A buddy of mine sent me a pic of his receiver where the holes weren’t drilled period.

Those are 80% lowers. They need to be milled at home.
He probably got a great deal on it...

Nope, that was purchased as a 100% complete.

How did they get the parts in it?

They didn’t.

It was bought as a stripped receiver. I think he returned it.

Seems this story is evolving with more twists than the covid saga...

 

[Varminterror]

I’d have to see some evidence of that. (DD and BCM)

Gladly - but as I noted above, you’re willing to refute or overlook known issues with higher priced products, but condemn the same in lower priced options. Not surprising, not original, and not productive.

 

[Browning]

Seems this story is evolving with more twists than the covid saga...

I guess.

The poor workmanship just extends to more than one receiver and one rifle that I’ve dealt with.

It’s an ongoing thing. Anderson lowers and PSA parts kits or Anderson rifles. They’re cheap. Hence the reason I think they suck.

 

[Browning]

Gladly - but as I noted above, you’re willing to refute or overlook known issues with higher priced products, but condemn the same in lower priced options. Not surprising, not original, and not productive.

More like I hadn’t heard about it.

Kind of interesting you think I’d be dishonest about an issue with a manufacturer based solely on price.

Everything I’ve said I’ve been completely honest about and it’s what actually happened. What issues have you personally had with BCM, LMT and DD?

What about the evidence on BCM and LMT?

 

[Demi-human]

They’re cheap. Hence the reason I think they suck.

Ta Daa!

 

[Browning]

Ta Daa!

You can save your ‘Gotcha’, I was meaning in terms of precision and workmanship.

The same thing I’ve mentioned several times.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I let this go because I like all the people posting in this thread

We've all got our reasons for doing what we do. My reasons were well stated as to why I spend a little more, and I'm happy with my purchases. In no way am I trying to say that what I do is better than what you do, that's how religions get started

What I am trying to explain is that a $350 AR is like buying a Huffy bicycle. For most kids, it will probably get you around town and do what you need to do but the reality is, the Schwinn costs more and everything about it is a little nicer.

The Huffy is going to wear out quicker because the quality of the materials it was manufactured with.

It is why you will see a barrel made of 4150 steel rather than 4140, or chrome lined, nitrided, etc. For the average joe, enjoying a couple boxes of 223 at the range once a month, a blued steel 4140 barrel will work fine and give many years of service.

I'm not the average joe, have broken things on AR's, and have wasted a lot of time trying to figure out the recipe. Now that I know the recipe, I stick with it, and try to relay the recipe to others.

 

[LoonWulf]

Once you see enough of this stuff any confidence you might have had in their workmanship is pretty much gone. I’m not sure why I’m seeing it and you aren’t. Can’t account for the discrepancy, but it’s what I’ve been seeing.

I don’t trust them at all. You’re free to, but I don’t

Ive only had a few Anderson lowers, and one of their "match" trigger lpks. Ive not seen any of the issues that Ive heard folks talk about, but that dosent mean I dont believe that they havent had the problems.

Actually I did have an issue with the buffer retaining pin hole being a little too far back and the buffer battering it during normal operation. I just took some off the rim of the buffer to clear the pin head and that solved the issue.

As stated, for the 50 bucks i spent, thats fine. If id spent a few hundred Id have probably still done the same thing, but id have grumbled the whole 15 mins it took.
Ive had very good luck/experiences with cheap products in general. I dont expect them to be perfect, and Im willing to invest the time, and effort, into them to make up for the low cost. Case in point i spent over an hour taking the wobble and most of the for/aft slop out of a cheap UTG carbine stock. Im sure I could have bought one that did exactly what i wanted, but not for the 20 bucks i spent on this one.

So far Ive seen far fewer major issues with AR15s in general than I have with Remington 700 bolt actions specifically, and most of the major issues were assembly problems. That dosent mean that they dont exist, or that there wont BE one, but its a risk you take.

Just because I consider it a minor risk, I dont think everyone should feel that way. If you CHOOSE not to take that risk, all well and good, and there are great companies that are willing to provide products at the price point where you can buy confidence.

Again this is all just my opinion, and ill go back to turd polishing now...anyone wanna see my P80!?

 

[Skylerbone]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...warranty-with-new-zealand-defense-forces/amp/

With some Anderson lowers some brands of magazines (PMags) won’t drop free. I’ve run into that. Mag well was too tight.

I own 4 Anderson lowers and have yet to see a failure. Any thoughts on my honesty or why on earth I would drink from the same well so often if the water was bad? It’s not like I can’t afford a more expensive lower, I just don’t always need the security blanket of a particular roll mark.

There’s a well known reset issue on their fire control group (specifically their hammer) that doesn’t allow it to reset.

You posted a video from YouTube from a specific dealer who had a couple LPKs with an issue. They fixed the issue with a quick file swipe and continued selling Anderson parts so are they betting their reputation on a problem company, so money hungry they would sell “junk”, or do they understand that from time to time EVERY company has a bad batch?

My Fire Chief had an Anderson AR with that issue. I changed out the hammer with a RRA hammer I had floating around in my spare parts box.

Does this mean you friend’s rifle is a ticking time bomb or that RRA sent out a batch with bad heat treat? As has been stated, seek and ye shall find on everyone.

I happen to own 3 RRA 2-stage triggers by the way and have never experienced these issues but I do not discount that they occur. My sample size of 3 however does not qualify me to make blanket statements about them, it allows me to provide one user’s feedback.

A buddy of mine sent me a pic of his receiver where the holes weren’t drilled period.

AGAIN, as with the other poster describing issues with his personal rifle, how did your buddy come to take possession of a receiver with no holes? Is he a certifiable idiot or too lazy to give it a once over before signing the 4473? I confess my eyes aren’t good enough to judge perfect hole placement on a receiver but he missed it not having any? That’s the guy who buys the $20 mystery grab bag at a gun show. If that’s been your experience with Anderson, I don’t blame your distrust, but post that picture and make it real for us.


And these are just the open ear ones, all mine.


And one of my RRA Varmint 2-Stage triggers.

 

[LoonWulf]

Anyway....I was under the impression, or perhaps ass-umption, that we were discussing KNOW functional weapons. If your handing me a complete unknown....well 2 Is still my answer for the same reason, tho perhaps more pressing in the "unkown" functionality situation.

 

[Browning]

I own 4 Anderson lowers and have yet to see a failure. Any thoughts on my honesty or why on earth I would drink from the same well so often if the water was bad? It’s not like I can’t afford a more expensive lower, I just don’t always need the security blanket of a particular roll mark.

Wow! 4 whole Anderson receivers worth of experience?!! That’s some extensive experience right there! Lol

Are you kidding?

You posted a video from YouTube from a specific dealer who had a couple LPKs with an issue. They fixed the issue with a quick file swipe and continued selling Anderson parts so are they betting their reputation on a problem company, so money hungry they would sell “junk”, or do they understand that from time to time EVERY company has a bad batch?

Sure. Why wouldn’t they?

They make money on both ends. Selling you the parts, then fixing them when it’s a problem.

Why not just buy parts that work to begin with rather than buying parts, potentially having a problem (or maybe not) and then bringing it to those guys and paying them to fix it?

Does this mean you friend’s rifle is a ticking time bomb or that RRA sent out a batch with bad heat treat?

I repaired the rifle using RRA parts. It originally had defective Anderson parts in there (which is why it didn’t work to begin with).

The issue wasn’t with the parts from Rock River, it was with Anderson.

I don’t know what weird searches you found on the web in an attempt to make the point ‘that everyone fails at some point, so it’s okay if all of them fail’ ... or something like that. I honestly don’t care and I think it’s fuzzy logic to begin with and yet another step towards communism. Have at it though.

As has been stated, seek and ye shall find on everyone.

I hear this a lot. It’s usually followed by pointing out the failings of some large, well known company with a reputation for reliability that had an issue. (Singular)

The problem with that is the percentage of defective parts and what that company does to address the problem to avoid the problem in the future to keep it from happening again.

If ‘Company A’ has manufacturing and QC issues with 10% of its product because of its poorly trained workforce and poor materials and it doesn’t do anything to avoid repeating the problem and it doesn’t reimburse the customers in anyway shape or form does that make the issues with that company on the same scale as what happened with ‘Company D’ if ‘D’ reaffirms on their commitment to quality by instituting an inspection process at both the manufacturing and assembling level and reimburses (free of charge and including shipping) their customers by fixing or replacing any broken weapons or parts?

I don’t think that it is.

One does something to fix the problem and the other uses it as part of its business model.

I happen to own 3 RRA 2-stage triggers by the way and have never experienced these issues but I do not discount that they occur. My sample size of 3 however does not qualify me to make blanket statements about them, it allows me to provide one user’s feedback.

You misunderstood and thought that RRA parts broke in the Anderson.

Not the case.

AGAIN, as with the other poster describing issues with his personal rifle, how did your buddy come to take possession of a receiver with no holes? Is he a certifiable idiot or too lazy to give it a once over before signing the 4473? I confess my eyes aren’t good enough to judge perfect hole placement on a receiver but he missed it not having any? That’s the guy who buys the $20 mystery grab bag at a gun show. If that’s been your experience with Anderson, I don’t blame your distrust, but post that picture and make it real for us.

He bought them at a gun store, glanced at them, they seemed fine and then put the lowers back in the white cardboard box.

You would’ve had the same exact thing happen, you just didn’t run into that batch (probably because you have a measly four lowers worth of experience with this less than stellar company).

It’s interesting that you blame my friend (probably because he’s *my* friend) vs the company that skipped out on manufacturing the lower incorrectly.

Whatever. It seems that for some of you the issue you have with what I’m saying is my less than cuddly approach in saying that Anderson isn’t a very good company (I haven’t even gotten to BCA yet). Sorry, I wish I had more of a bedside manner instead of just the truth, but they aren’t very good. Maybe you’ve missed out on getting stung so far, but you’ll get stung eventually if you keep buying their products.

 

[Casefull]

You can stop now Mr. Browning, you’ve exposed yourself as a ——— who just likes to argue.

 

[Demi-human]

Fine! It happened!
Poverty ponies suck, and poor humans do too.
Let it go!

Browning is a single expensive rifle guy. Got it.

You have perfectly stated your opinion, slighting anyone that disagrees on the way, turning this from a fun thought exercise to the typical Arfcom thread, or one about Taurus firearms.

The ugly thing about a humans version of truth, is that it is not universal.
Clearly evidenced by the spectrum of consumers and their happiness of ownership, or not.

Everyone gets stung at one time or another, not everyone goes into anaphylaxis about it.

(Jinx!)

 

[Robert]

Oh enough. Run what you like, stay away from what you don't like and let others do the same. Why is it so had to believe that people have different experience with different manufacturers? Opinions are like elbows.... And just because someone has different opinions or experiences doesn't make them wrong or you right.