For those who want to stop the "mentally ill" from firearms

Status
Not open for further replies.

FW

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
147
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinformation/statisticsmenu.cfm

An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.

The quote says "in a given year". I read somewhere a "statistic" claiming a very high percentage (most) people have a "diagnosable mental disorder" in their life time.

Do have or have you ever had a mental disorder? According to some, you likely do/have had.

No need to ban firearms. Just limit them the those who don't have or haven't had "mental illness" and almost everyone is prohibited.

And...who knows how many new "disorders" will be created.
 
That is why I wondered about the reports that the Vtech killer also set a dorm room on fire. If true that means their just twisting this as another opportunity. Focusing on making new laws so they can declare everyone insane. If the average law abiding person can snap and kill 30 people they have a excuse to take away all our rights. If instead those that go on shooting spree are getting away with one crime after another till they blow up, then we have a problem with them being allowed to get that far.
 
My position is that any attempt at "common sense gun control" is unconstitutional. That will not change. If the person is too dangerous to buy a gun, why are they even out on the street at all?
 
Also, you fail to realize that "mentally ill" is a damn vague term. Technically, a person with Attention Deficit Disorder (which isn't considered a mental illness in most other western countries) would be grounds to strip someone of their rights if you had your way, Anonymous Coward.
 
Do you guys really want to permit the mentally ill to buy guns?

And do you want that to be our political position?

Define mentally ill. Or better yet, just wait as they define it for you . . . as you. The point of the post is that everyday the standard for what constitutes "mentally ill" is lowered. Soon enough, the majority of people will be construed as having some illness or another.

So, we do ban everyone who suffers from mild depression (i.e. the typical "blues") once or twice a month (or every Monday morning) from owning firearms? Eventually, that'll be construed as an easily treatable mental illness so it should fall under the category.

How about everyone who suffers from PTSD? That's cover most vets, survivors of traumatic events, or even former students, since most people suffer from some form of PTSD if they've been through traumatic stress (and school counts, which is why so many people have dreams years after graduation about being unprepared in class).

No one is suggesting that sociopaths or psychotics who pose a demonstrable danger to themselves or society should have firearms. Then again, they shouldn't be allowed access to cars, computers, gasoline, matches, lighter fluid, knives, blunt objects or children as everyone one of those is an instrument that can be used to cause harm. The opposition to the new "restrictions" comes from the fact that once those laws are passed, a group of doctors deciding what fits within their definition of a mental illness can, without further operation of the law or due process, prevent you from obtaining another firearm, and make you a felon if you keep yours.
 
Operational definitions are key. We must know what we are talking about exactly before we run around making restrictions based on broad or vauge terms..
 
"Mentally Ill" is a subjective term, and no matter how we decide to define it, there will be people who should be able but can't get a firearm, and those who can but shouldn't be able. I think if you're sane enough to acknowledge you have a problem and seek help on your own, you should not be restricted. However if a court decides you need it and you refuse to, and need to be forced into treatment because you pose a significant threat to yourself and others, I think you should not be able to get a firearm until such a time that the court decides you no longer pose a threat.
 
MikeFL86 - You're out of line and off base. No one is stripping rights from folks with a mental illness, only those who are a danger to themselves or others. Read the law that's on the books - it uses the wording in the one they're working on now. The key word is adjudicated. That's not diagnosed, that's found to be a danger in a proceeding, or not guilty by reason of insanity, etc.

I have an APA DSM-IV right here. Let's look at some diagnoses. I doubt that anybody is seriously suggesting that a person with an eating disorder is at risk of being listed.

Anorexia Nervosa 307.1
Bulimia Nervosa 307.51

Or how about...

Primary Insomnia 307.42
Breathing-Related Sleep Disorder 780.59

Male Erectile Disorder 302.72
Dyspareunia 302.76
 
"The opposition to the new "restrictions""

What new restrictions? So far they appear to be using the same wording NICS/Brady Act has used all along.

John
 
JohnBT, I was replying to Anonymous Coward's post. I suggest you read it. I've read the proposed law.
 
If the person is too dangerous to buy a gun, why are they even out on the street at all?

Well... this is a cut and paste from my post in another thread, but since we are rehashing the issue here goes:

Incapacitating mental illness of the type that renders you a danger to self or others (schizophrenia, major depression, bi-polar disorder, etc.), and of the severity that is liable to subject you to detention against your will, is typically not a static condition. This is often difficult to understand unless you have had experience with mental health patients.

While the diagnosis is more or less permanent, the condition of imminent danger that results in detention is rarely a "now and forever" situation like mental retardation. Many/most patients who are subject to detention are typically capable of living independently, and typically return to a behavioral state where it is innapropriate (and illegal) to keep them detained in a secure facility.

This does not however necessarily mean that they will remain that way; and in fact in most cases where an emergency detention has occurred due to psychosis the patient will indeed be rehospitalized at some point. It may be a very short period of time, or it may take years.

Gun ownership is a profoundly poor idea for most (not all, but most) of these people.

It is not as simple as "why is he/she allowed out in public?" however.

Not all states require adjudication for imminent risk hospitalizations, and not all persons who pose such risk are "mentally incompetent or defective" by legal definition.

If one's mental health history includes hospitalization (voluntary or otherwise) for imminent risk of serious harm to self or others, the information should, in my opinion, be potentially disqualifying to lawful gun ownership IF a law enforcement agency, mental health authority, etc. is willing to go to the trouble of petitioning a hearing by a Court that it be so ordered, and is capable of providing a compelling demonstration of the basis of their concern.

It should not be incumbent upon the individual, IMHO, to demonstrate their competency in the absence of such action.

Also, you fail to realize that "mentally ill" is a damn vague term.

No, it's not.

Define "mentally ill."

For the purpose of firearms restriction: an individual diagnosed with uncontrolled (or persistent transient uncontrollability of) schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, or depressive disorder, and accompanying acts and/or expressions of imminent risk of causing greivous physical injury or death to themselves or another person.
 
Welcome, Anonymous Coward. I'm assuming you're another Slashdot reader. :)

Do you guys really want to permit the mentally ill to buy guns?

And do you want that to be our political position?
I think the arguments you'll find here are closer to the following:
  • Historically, restrictions on who can legally own firearms have little value in keeping firearms away from those who "we" don't want to have them. I'll point you to any news report of the felon with a gun, and can reference a $50 1911 with no serial numbers and a $500 select-fire Uzi (still in the cosmoline) that were offered to me when I still lived in Southern California Suburbia.
  • Restrictions on who can own firearms legally tend to create false positives, making it difficult for many to purchase legally, and causing some discomfort in the gun store when the NICS report comes back that mistakenly labels the applicant a "prohibited person."
  • Restrictions never diminish, but tend to grow over time. Essentially building a highway from medical records --> government now will come back to haunt us someday. Or at least, lots of us believe so.
  • NICS is a program that doesn't really work. Now, I know the NRA likes the idea (isn't it their idea, after all?), but lots of us would rather see it go away than be strengthened in any way. BTW, a large percentage of the people with this view don't need to subject themselves to it anyway, as lots of states allow you to avoid the NICS check if you possess a CCW permit.
Agree or disagree, but don't think the arguments you see are advocating arming every schizophrenic out there or anything. ;)

Even worse, this seems to be something the NRA is doing for PR reasons, knowing it won't help the situation.
 
"If the person is too dangerous to buy a gun, why are they even out on the street at all?"

I'll take a stab at this often used argument. For the same reason a person can be too dangerous to drive an automobile, but still be allowed out on the street - they don't have it together enough to handle the equipment, but can otherwise can take care of themselves.

John
 
And what if a person was hospitalized but was treated and has returned back to "normal?" Should they be deprived of their rights for the rest of their lives? What kind of nonsense is this? Depression and bi-polar disorder are very treatable. Schizophrenia is becoming more treatable as the years go on. If they're hospitalized, they should not be able to purchase a gun. Once treatment is done with, and they are deemed safe enough to let back into the general public, their rights should be completely restored.
 
"Even worse, this seems to be something the NRA is doing for PR reasons, knowing it won't help the situation."

And based on the bill's track record, and the opposition by the mental health community, it probably won't pass - again.

John
 
The NICS was the brainchild of the Brady Campaign. The Brady Bill was the one that required background checks on gun purchases from an FFL. It was not the NRA's brainchild.
 
I've probably said this in these forums a hundred times, but read the Rand quote in my sig ... change all the references to "criminal" to "criminals and the mentally ill".
 
I've probably said this in these forums a hundred times, but read the Rand quote in my sig ... change all the references to "criminal" to "criminals and the mentally ill".

I love that quote! So true.
 
While no one wants more mass murders such as the one at VT, giving "mental health professionals(?)" the power to veto a gun purchase is a very scary scenario. There are those in the anti-gun crowd that would consider your desire for a firearm a clear indication of mental illness. This would be like the great "catch 22" in the novel of the same name, wherein if you want a gun, you are therefore crazy and prohibited from having one, but if you do not want a gun, then you are clearly sane and allowed to get one. Of course, if you try to get a gun, that makes you crazy and thus are prohibited from getting it. I have worked professionally in health care all of my adult life, and know that decisions regarding mental stability, let alone being a danger to others, is a highly subjective and murky area. I will not willingly surrender my right to bear arms to someone who will judge my mental stability and ability to possess firearms.
 
As CFriesen pointed out, there IS a legal definition for mentally ill.

The rest of it is just details.

Historically, restrictions on who can legally own firearms have little value in keeping firearms away from those who "we" don't want to have them.

You can take that argument a little farther and say rather than restrict gun ownership to non-felons, we might as well stop enforcing the law against felons possessing firearms, because it doesn't eliminate the problem altogether.

A felon doesn't have the right to own a weapon, but his ownership of one doesn't threaten my own legal ability to buy one. I can always argue that I have the right, and he doesn't.

However, Cho didn't have the right to ownership either, yet some would argue his documented mental state was nobody's business. His ownership of a weapon, unlike those of felons passing back stolen goods, DOES threaten my right to own one, because he's one of us: A legal gun owner.

Restrictions on who can own firearms legally tend to create false positives, making it difficult for many to purchase legally, and causing some discomfort in the gun store when the NICS report comes back that mistakenly labels the applicant a "prohibited person."

A false positive isn't going to get anyone killed. A false negative will.

Restrictions never diminish, but tend to grow over time. Essentially building a highway from medical records --> government now will come back to haunt us someday. Or at least, lots of us believe so.

Then it's our business to offer restrictions that are workable and livable, otherwise they will be imposed upon us.

Face it; this is the common-sense restriction anyone can think of.

NICS is a program that doesn't really work.

There's no reason it shouldn't.

Now, I know the NRA likes the idea (isn't it their idea, after all?), but lots of us would rather see it go away than be strengthened in any way.

Well, of course it's toothless. Thousands of straw buyers can attest to that. That's another problem WE, rather than anti-gunners, should be working on...because their solution is plug-simple and rather final.

BTW, a large percentage of the people with this view don't need to subject themselves to it anyway, as lots of states allow you to avoid the NICS check if you possess a CCW permit.

Really? So if you have a valid CCW permit they won't check if you've been convicted of a felony since it was issued? Or do they revoke your CCW if you've been jailed? Either way, I think the solution is rather easy to grasp.
 
Vito:

You just nailed it! There are antis who will say that the very desire for firearms, especially collectors, are somehow mentally defective. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid...psych! No pun intended...oh...alright...yes...it was a pun! But, you have to admit, it was very punny. :neener:

Doc2005
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top