For you 2A/Heller Philosophers...

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cbrgator

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The time has come in my Constitutional Law class to discuss Heller. For you guys who love to argue the points, I thought I'd post the discussion questions for our next class and let you guys argue/ponder away. These aren't homework questions or anything, just some things he wants us to think about in the reading so don't feel like you'll be doing my work for me (plus I've already read the opinion in full instead of the 40 page edited opinion we'll be reading in class and have good answers for nearly all of the questions.) Don't even post answers if you don't want to. Just some stuff to think about. Enjoy...

Oh, and by the way, ignore page numbers, those refer to a textbook not the actual opinion.

1. Do you agree that “a prefatory clause does not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause”? (CB Supp. 4.) If A says to B, “since you need to check your e-mail, you may use my computer,” does that give B the right to use A’s computer for any purpose?
2. What significance, if any, should be attached to the fact that the Second Amendment is the only amendment in the Bill of Rights with a prefatory clause?
3. Under the majority’s approach, why was the Second Amendment included in the Bill of Rights? What effect did it have with respect to what the majority describes as a “pre-existing right” to keep and bear arms?
4. Under the majority’s approach, would a state have a right to shut down the militia? Would individuals have a right to form one on their own if a state did so?
5. Why was the Second Amendment adopted under Justice Stevens’ approach? What individual rights, if any, would it have created?
6. If you were writing an express provision to be included in the constitution that would provide for states of emergency roughly along the lines of the provisions in the South African constitution (Supp. 43-45), would you include the Second Amendment as a “non-derogable” right (see Section 37(5), Supp. 44)? Why or why not?
7. How should the impact of technological change be incorporated into constitutional interpretation? Consider that the set of those weapons that individuals would normally carry no longer overlaps to any great degree with the set of weapons that would be needed for an effective militia (as they did in the late 18th century). Is it possible for the Second Amendment to serve the same purpose today that the majority says it served when the Second Amendment was adopted? Would treating the Second Amendment as having fallen into desuetude because of technological change endanger protections under the Fourth Amendment? Is there any significance to the Third Amendment today?
8. How should the impact of sociological change be incorporated into constitutional interpretation? How persuasive do you find Justice Breyer’s argument that the framers would not have anticipated the problem modern urban-crime related dangers (CB Supp. 37)? If he is correct, of what significance is that for interpretation of the Second Amendment? What is the significance of the absence in the majority opinion of any discussion of the reasons for the handgun ban in the District of Columbia?
9. The majority concludes that “modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and protected right,” (CB Supp. 15) and goes on to say, but that that development “cannot change our interpretation of the right” Why should it not?
10. Do citizens have the right under the majority’s reading of the Second Amendment to stockpile large caches of weapons in anticipation of the need someday to fight an oppressive government?
11. Is it possible for there to be “no doubt” about the framers’ intent (CB Supp. 8) on anything? Is such a level of certainty necessary in constitutional interpretation? Are you persuaded, in light of both the majority’s and Justice Stevens’ opinions that the original meaning of the Second Amendment is clear one way or the other?
12. Are you persuaded by Justice Stevens’ assertion of the irrelevance of the evidence that the majority marshals concerning the interpretation in the 19th century of the Second Amendment as protecting an individual right? Why or why not? Might it be a “historical gloss” on the text? A sign of an evolving constitution?
13. What should we make of the fact that throughout most of the 20th century, the predominant understanding of the Second Amendment was that it did not protect individual rights? Of what relevance should it be that in the last quarter of the 20th century opposition to gun control became a much bigger political issue and scholarly commentary began to turn more to an individual rights interpretation?
14. Who has the more persuasive treatment of prior precedent (particularly Cruikshank, Presser, and Miller, in your view -- the majority or Justice Stevens?
15. The majority says that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right.” (CB Supp. 15) What is the scope of the right of self-defense protected by the Second Amendment? Does it cover self-defense outside the home?
16. Is the right recognized by the majority limited to “law-abiding, responsible citizens” (CB Supp. 17), as Justice Stevens asserts (CB Supp. 20)? If it is, does this mean that other rights in the Bill of Rights may be similarly limited?
17. What is the significance of the majority’s reference to an “individual right to possess and carry weaspons in case of confrontation” (CB Supp. 7) (emphasis added)? What sort of confrontations does the majority have in mind?
18. Would adoption of an “interest-balancing” approach to scrutinizing gun-related regulations, as Justice Breyer proposes, imply adoption of a similar approach to regulations that impinge on, say, First Amendment rights? What factor makes Justice Breyer think that scrutiny of regulations that impinge on the Second Amendment right recognized by the majority inevitably must be different from the kind of scrutiny the Court uses in analyzing regulations that impinge on other individual rights? See CB Supp. 30-31.
19. What reasons does Justice Breyer give for judicial deference to legislative judgment in gun regulation?
20. What kinds of weapons are protected by the Second Amendment, according to the majority? What kinds are not protected? Does it depend on how use they would be in a militia today? Why do Americans who chose to have guns at home typically not keep machine guns?
21. The majority states that “handguns are the most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home” (CB Supp. 16), so a complete ban on their possession (at least at home) is invalid. Does this mean that the interpretation of this aspect of the Constitution -- the types of weapons that are protected by the Second Amendment -- should turn on what is popular? If so, why shouldn’t other aspects of the interpretation -- like the degree to which the federal or state governments are permitted to limit the possession of firearms -- also be subject to democratic control and change?
22. Assuming that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, that right is not absolute. What test should be applied according to the majority to determine whether a particular restriction violates the right according to Justice Breyer? What criticisms does the majority make of his proposal? Why does the majority not offer a standard? Is its answer consistent with its listing at CB Supp. 14 of types of restrictions that are permissible?
23. Does Heller mark an amendment to the Constitution? If not, did (for example) Cruikshank or Miller?
 
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I suppose there has to be this type of discussion . Part and parcel with a large society, and government, and law in general.

It is however in the tone,the complexity, and the context, in which these dicussions take place that are frankly un-nerving to me. An example :

What should we make of the fact that throughout most of the 20th century, the predominant understanding of the Second Amendment was that it did not protect individual rights?

Whose "fact" is this ? Predominant in what circles and in what context ?

Take for example then ,the senate juditial committee's findings ,when they commissioned a study of the 2nd amendment in 1982 . Even though this was an exaustive study , completed by some of the top constitutional scholars of the day, the findings were ignored by at least a portion of the justices in the Heller case (and in some ways by all). In 1982 the conclusion of that study was that the 2nd was indeed meant to be an individual right.

My point somewhat is, how does that study not get included as part of the "facts" of the 20th century ? That particular study mentions that a review of the 1968 gun control act should be undertaken . That it may have constitutional problems . What weight should be given to this study ? Is it an important part of anything regarding future discussion ?

So, by asking the questions in the way they are asked indicates what ? Pure bias ? or something else ? and what does that lead to ?
 
Well it is no secret to the class that our professor is liberal. He has never outwardly declared much in the way of political positions but his biography on the university's website tells us that he once was a lawyer for the ACLU. In addition, it's hard to appear 100% neutral without giving away an inkling of which way you lean, so yes we are all aware he is a liberal and I am 99% positive he is an anti.

Having said that... I have heard this elsewhere that the 2A did not protect individual rights until Heller. And I heard this from my aunt who is a brilliant lawyer and neutral to gun rights. So, I don't know... maybe it's true? Honestly, couldn't tell you, but yes, my professor is a liberal and has skewed the discussion that way... and I'm prepared to combat it.

Could direct me to this 1982 study that said it was an individual right? That would be great ammo, metaphorically of course.
 
cbrgator, I haven't met a conlaw professor yet that isn't a pbs donor if you know what I mean, except for Glenn Reynolds at Univ Tenn, and his colleagues all probably hate his guts. His (rather popular) blog is at instapundit.com.
 
Toss this one out for the Prof. to chew on:

Article II is a Ciceronian model of a periodic sentence, typical of the rhetorical style of the day.

Other examples of Ciceronian, periodic sentences from the era include:

"When in the course of human events . . . "

and

"We the People of the United States of America, in order to form a more perfect union . . . "

Chief rhetorical features of the Ciceronian style are convoluted syntax and elevated diction.

Fundamental syntactical features of a periodic sentence are linked dependent clauses resolved in a terminal independent clause.

It's no rhetorical irony that the "dependent" clauses in Article II are "a well regulated militia" and "the security of a free state."

The "independence" that these clauses rely upon, grammatically and politically, are "the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

In formal rhetorical circles, this construction is an Aristotelian Syllogism -- a major and minor premise, resolved in an inference.

Aristotle's syllogism is fundamental to Hegel's dialectical materialism -- thesis, antithesis, synthesis, but that's getting a bit off track and post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Hegel comes AFTER the US Constitutional Convention.

And so, what you argue for the good Professor is that Article II, from a New Historical Critical view of its rhetorical and syntactical constrution provides for the security of a free state through the surety of a government militia which is "well regulated" by means of affording the PEOPLE the "right to keep and bear arms."

This right of the people to control the powers of their government -- to "well regulate the militia" is alluded to in the Declaration of Independence when it states:

"That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

-- And then you can go ahead and argue Scalia's majority opinion. :D
 
Having said that... I have heard this elsewhere that the 2A did not protect individual rights until Heller. And I heard this from my aunt who is a brilliant lawyer and neutral to gun rights. So, I don't know... maybe it's true? Honestly, couldn't tell you, but yes, my professor is a liberal and has skewed the discussion that way... and I'm prepared to combat it.

The question of Article II providing a collective or individual right to keep and bear have never been adjudicated until Heller. That's why Heller is such a landmark decision -- because it clearly states that RKBA is an INDIVIDUAL right.

Until Heller the question has been hotly debated, speculated upon, argued, interpreted, and discussed. But it's never been adjudicated in a court of law until Heller.

This is why Heller is such a huge decision for RKBA and gun owners. What's been tacitly allowed in the US in terms of gun ownership is now Constitutional CASE LAW.
 
WOW! And to think all this is about one sentence with (one or three - take your choice) commas. Just think what your prof. could do if he actually read the whole Constitution!!! I can imagine a life time of him babbling in a corner. Am I not understanding something? I find that sentence both clear and under standable, and I'm willing to argue it. I guess I'm just not smart enough to realize how convoluted and difficult that magic sentence is. :confused:
sailortoo
 
The question of Article II providing a collective or individual right to keep and bear have never been adjudicated until Heller. That's why Heller is such a landmark decision -- because it clearly states that RKBA is an INDIVIDUAL right.

Until Heller the question has been hotly debated, speculated upon, argued, interpreted, and discussed. But it's never been adjudicated in a court of law until Heller.

This is why Heller is such a huge decision for RKBA and gun owners. What's been tacitly allowed in the US in terms of gun ownership is now Constitutional CASE LAW.

I do not believe they are saying that up until now that RKBA was legally collective. IIRC they say, "it has been considered up until now..."
 
“since you need to check your e-mail, you may use my computer,”
Even though your teacher is anti-gun, but his q's are VERY illustrative.

For example, the key phrase in the above "analogy" is my computer. Thus, it can be analogous to gun ownership/carry rights only if it is presumed that the goverment OWNS all guns (my guns) or owns all rights (my rights), but will occasionally dole them out to you for a purpose it approves. How differently would the sentence read if the phrase was "our computer" or "your computer," as it invites the question, "And who exactly are you to tell me that I can use my computer?"

The other questions, similarly, can only be taken to "puncture" the Heller decision if one presumes that the government beneficiently hands out only those rights it cares to.

The entirety of logical thought used to be ruled by analogies--scholars arguing over which dialectical syllogism, which enthymeme, "solved" a particular question. That time we now refer to as the Dark Ages.

It is not comforting to observe that the discussion of our inalienable rights revolves around the use of those same error-prone tools.
I have heard this elsewhere that the 2A did not protect individual rights until Heller. And I heard this from my aunt who is a brilliant lawyer and neutral to gun rights. So, I don't know... maybe it's true?
Don't you believe it.

The Goverment, in Miller, made that argument, that the 2A involves a "collective right"--what double-speaking, oxymoronic tripe! Miller did not comment on the collective right theory, instead saying that it did not know if a sawed-off shotgun fulfilled a militia purpose, and remanded the case back to lower court--presumably to investigate that point. But there were no further proceedings.

Twenty-nine years later, after the GCA of 1968, Burton v Sills in the NJ State Supreme Court seems to be the first time a significant court EVER "concluded" that the 2A involved a collective right.

So, it would be more accurate IMO for your aunt and your professor to say that the 2A protected an individual's right from 1791 until 1968, when lower courts began to assume that Miller meant something that its authors never intended and the SCOTUS never ruled. This year we got a small portion of that right back--and we'll have to fight for the rest, as always.
 
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Prof has bundled a pile if loosely connected elements and expect you to provide absolutist answers........

The questions themselves fail to initially address a core issue that has to be crafted and answered for any coherent answers.

This is particularly important in the context of 2A due to it living as part of the Bill of Rights AND within the framework of constitutional law.

The first issue is to differentiate and explain the variance between "Right", "Obligation", "Expectation" and "Custom".

A "Right" is an individuals, inherent virtue or element that is divorced from any external framework. It can be breached, legislated or prohibited but remains irrespective. So a "Right to self defense", a "Right to life" can be taken from you at the point of a gun or a point of a law, but are inherent to an individual. These are usually seen in context of a cultural more or ethic.

An "Obligation" is a requirement that is imposed upon an individual, culture or society, that in general is for the "general good" of a polity and has sanctions around failure or refusal to accede. Being part of a formal military draft in time of war is an example. The obligation in general forms part of a cultures requirements to protect itself and is not necessarily to the direct benefit of an individual. It is generally framed and enforced within a legal framework.

An "Expectation" is typically a culturally driven and socially enforced set of guidelines that an individual is expected to follow for the good of a society and the individual. It is usually an activity or prohibition that allows a society to continue to function smoothly and continue to exist. The "Expectation" is fluid and can vary dramatically by culture and is almost solely enforced by social exclusion. "Good manners"

"Custom" is in general a culture or sub-cultures rules to differentiate itself form others. These frequently have esoteric and arcane elements that make little sense to an outsider but do not breach an overarching cultures "rules of the road". Dietary restrictions, religious observances etc are good examples.

Now thats out of the way we have to frame your questions asked in terms of are they "Right", "Obligation", "Expectation" and "Custom".

Which elements are which helps to define the restrictions or hedging, if any, are appropriate.
 
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Townhall.com and Nationalreview.com will have some good info via their blogs and columnists. I think Townhall.com even has a dedicated section to 2A and I recall has had columnists discuss Heller.

Syndicatred columnist George Will is supposedly publishing an article tomorrow (11/24) saying that the majority in Heller were judical activists just as the majority that "found" a "right" to privacy in Roe. He's a bright guy and conservative, so I'm curious to see what he has to say.
 
I haven't met a conlaw professor yet that isn't a pbs donor if you know what I mean,

I suspect you aren't looking very hard. :)

http://volokh.com/

I find that sentence both clear and understandable, and I'm willing to argue it.

I find they syntax pretty convoluted - particularly since the 1st is so clear. Can you contrast your understanding of the 2nd Amendment with a hypothetical 2nd Amendment worded more like the 1st? If you understanding is the first phase does not modify the fundamental right, then why didn't the framers write the following?

  • Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Article II is a Ciceronian model of a periodic sentence, typical of the rhetorical style of the day.

I have read the various grammatical arguments - it looks like an ablative absolute in my recollection of high school Latin - but they fail one simple test - why this convoluted syntax for this amendment, when the others are so simple and direct and clear (syntactically)? I will be interested in hearing the answer to this question, which is critical:

[*]2. What significance, if any, should be attached to the fact that the Second Amendment is the only amendment in the Bill of Rights with a prefatory clause?

I suspect the cause is historical, but when compared to the other Amendments, the syntax is arcane. It seems odd that the founders felt the need to comment on this one right, when many in the 1st have a far less obvious causality.

In formal rhetorical circles, this construction is an Aristotelian Syllogism -- a major and minor premise, resolved in an inference.

I don't buy this, at least not with a lot of explanation. The classic example of an syllogism - at least when I learned about them - was:

  1. Major Premise: All men are mortal.
  2. Minor Premise: Socrates is a man.
  3. Conclusion: Socrates is mortal.

What is the major premise in the 2nd Amendment?
What is the minor premise in the 2nd Amendment?
What is the conclusion in the 2nd Amendment?

Mike
 
It is however in the tone,the complexity, and the context, in which these dicussions take place that are frankly un-nerving to me.

I rest my case !
 
It is however in the tone,the complexity, and the context, in which these discussions take place that are frankly un-nerving to me.

You expect simple questions from in a Con Law class in law school?

To my mind, the questions are the aggressive probing questions I'd expect from such a class.

Mike
 
Methinks that RPCVYemen got lost in the nits, while nit-picking. Why oh why is one simple and quite direct sentence so difficult to understand? It is not code, it is a statement to assert the need for "The People" to be armed to maintain a "Free State" (a state of freedom - a condition, not a geographical location) - no more, no less - and uninfringed, at that!
sailortoo
 
it is a statement to assert the need for "The People" to be armed to maintain a "Free State" (a state of freedom - a condition, not a geographical location)

That is the most unusual read of the phrase "free State" - that it does not in fact refer to a political/geographical entity, but to condition or mode of being.

I am intrigued - but I have to believe that this is a highly unlikely read. I read Heller some time back, but I don't recall any of the justices asserting that "free State" referred to anything except the political/geographic entity.

Since the topic is being raised in a Con Law class, I have to ask the obvious questions.

  1. Is there legal precedent for reading "free State" to refer to a condition, and not a geographical/political entity?
  2. When the word "State" is used elsewhere in the Constitution, does it sometimes mean the geographical/political entity? For example, the word "state" is used extensively in Article Four. Does it always mean the condition (as opposed to geographical/political entity), or sometimes mean the geographical/political entity?
  3. If the word "State" when used in the Constitution has an ambiguous meaning, how do we determine which meaning is intended?

Mike
 
Well, class went pretty well. I made some good points without looking like a nut. The professor maintained a surprisingly balanced argument but his anti-ness was still very clear to me.

ATTENTION: After class I asked about an AWB under Heller and he said that if the guns rejected by the AWB are really that popular as to be "in common use" he doesn't see how the AWB could hold up but "we just don't know"

So..... BUY UP ALL THE AR'S, AK'S, FAL'S, etc. that you can find and lets make them common use!!!!!!
 
To my mind, the questions are the aggressive probing questions I'd expect from such a class.

It's not just the complexity of what is discussed in this class that is un-nerving to me. It's the whole deal , the complexity of law and language, and interrogative nature of every colon, comma, period , and capitilization that is being placed with a biased nature.

Our language has progressed, and yet it is used to legaly scrutinize, in minute detail, the meanings surrounding two century old text. Some stand ready to question every word , every letter, every punctuation mark ,in an attempt to draw different conclusion to the meaning of a document who's intention was made clear by those who wrote it. If not by modern standards, certainly by the standards of that day, that time, and with supporting documention as to what their intentions were.

We seem bent on a sophistication of our law to the point where it does nothing to serve the people - just the lawyers.
 
in an attempt to draw different conclusion to the meaning of a document who's intention was made clear by those who wrote it.

I think that the interesting issue - from an intellectual perspective - is a method by which to determine the "clear" meaning. For example, your supposition is that only the writers of the document have the right to interpret it. Why not the ratifiers? Isn't what the folks who ratified the Constitution thought they were ratifying as important as what the writers thought they were saying.

The matter is made more complex because the Constitution itself does not appear to award special interpretive power to the framers or ratifiers.

The focus of the questions as I read them is on methodology - how should the Constitution be interpreted? If two people have two different understandings of some clause of the Constitution, how do we reconcile those.

If you read THR a lot, you will find that most folks on THR are very good at persuading people who already agree with them. In the South we call that "preaching to the choir". When presented with an differing point of view, the thread soon descends into name calling and pounding the table. Here is an example from another thread on this issue:

... just becuase the nimrods in the 9ths circuit fabricated ...

... is being a non-thinking nincompoop ...

The problem with pounding on the table and calling people nimrods and nincompoops is that you can't build a legal system that way.

You can assert that there is a simple clear meaning to the 2nd Amendment, but how do you persuade folks who find a simple clear meaning that turn out to be different than yours?

What constitutes evidence in that debate?

If you assert that the only evidence that is acceptable must come from the preserved writings of a very small number of the writers and or ratifiers, and your opponent rejects that theory of interpretation, how do you persuade them that your theory of interpretation is correct?

And in most cases, I think any argument that asserts that the opposition - particularly when describing Supreme Court Justices - are somehow lazy or stupid or lack intelligence is just silly. Every one of the Justices is a brilliant, brilliant workaholic lawyer. Every one of then was one of the best at a very good law school. When Justice Ginsburg and Justice Scalia sit down to try and determine the meaning of any clause of the Constitution, there is no dummy at the table.

Mike
 
Touche Mike. That is absolutely correct, although I must be honest and say that before I started law school I wasn't so open minded to understanding the other side. Law school beats into you from day 1 that there are 2 sides to every argument and you must see both or you'll be a horrible lawyer, actually probably won't make it out of law school.

As convinced as we are that it's an individual right, there's a whole argument to the contrary with historical context and case law supporting it. (Although I must say, in Heller... Breyer's dissent is so bad it's almost embarrassing. Stevens' argument at least had clout.) They are as hellbent in there stance as we are but we must see both sides to understand the true nature of the issue. If we turn a blind shoulder, we are no better than they are.
 
Law school beats into you from day 1 that there are 2 sides to every argument and you must see both or you'll be a horrible lawyer, actually probably won't make it out of law school.

Yeah - I have never been to law school, but I have a number of relatives/friends in the profession. What I have noted is that any of them can see and understand both sides of an argument with incredible clarity. They are all extremely passionate in their beliefs, but they do not (in general) use their passion as excuse for intellectual sloth - by "sloth" I mean struggling to understand only one side of an argument. Every one of them could summarize both sides of a case with equal clarity.

Mike
 
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