Force on Force Training?

[Corpral_Agarn]

Hello All,
I was just wondering what people here on THR have participated in Force on Force training.
I recently watched a Tactical Response video of street scenario force on force training and thought that it would be beneficial for people (like me) to try sometime.
The video is here (WARNING: Strong language is used): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeJe1K-Nlzk

If you have taken that kind of training (or something similiar):
What were some scenarios?
What type of simulated ammo was used (airsoft, simunition, paintball)?
what were some take aways from the training?
Where did you take the course?
Would you recommend that course again?

Thanks and have a great day!

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I've done it through the military, law enforcement, and on my own with buddies.
Something I've taken away from it is that it's very beneficial to do it with other professionals, preferably under the guidance of trainers. It's easy to become undisciplined and let the lessons fly right by you if it's not structured right.

 

[1911 guy]

Agreed. Done with and structured by pros, it's a highly useful thing. They will also help you crystalize your AAR in your head because they see the valuable things you miss in the tunnel vision and induced stress. Done with a bunch of amateurs, it may well devolve into a Paintball-like game at best, an accidental (maybe better termed negligent) shooting at worst.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Some general comments on Force on Force training...

Force on force training IMHO requires the highest possible level of safety conciousness on the part of administrators, trainers, role players and participants. I cannot overemphasize that statement. People get killed in force on force training scenarios all too often, people who are professionals at what they are doing, who have been training for years.

FoF should not be done just because it seems "cool." I don't think FoF is something that should be set up by participants who have not had basic training from a professional trainer in conducting FoF scenarios and who absolutely are committed to conducting training safely, who have absolute control of the training environment and full cooperation and attention from the participants. That's a pretty tall order, but it is essential to maintaining a safe environment.

The book Training at the Speed of Life offers a good introduction to FoF - see http://www.amazon.com/Training-Speed-Life-Vol-Definitive/dp/0976199408 for more information.

John Farnam offers a good FoF based class - http://www.defense-training.com/courses/forceonforce.html

My own experience with FoF has been in more broadly scoped training events like the Snubby Summit or the Glock Summit, as parts of a larger menu of training opportunities. Since those were one-time events, those specific opportunities don't seem to be repeatable. Code Eagle marking rounds in participants' personal live firearms were used in one, and Simunitions in another.

I definitely recommend FoF - but only after sufficient professional instruction has been absorbed for the participant to fully understand all aspects of what's involved in FoF.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I've also done it through the .mil and as an LEO, using simunitions and airsoft guns. I'd agree with the previous comments that it has a lot of potential training benefit, but it needs to be very closely monitored and supervised to keep the focus on the training/teaching points. Without pretty tight constraints, it has a tendency to just turn into a paintball game.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I did it a couple of years ago with Loui Awerbuck as the instructor at Reeds in Santa Clara. We used airsoft pistols which we more than enough. Loui is very very safety oriented so I felt safe. It was scenario based and some were poptential no shoot scenarios to help you keep your mind in the game and make it more realistic. I learned a great deal. It's well worth doing with a legitimate instructor. For example, I didn't move when I was shooting. It made me an easy target. Yes, I know I should be moving but when the shooting started I didn't. I don't know why (maybe just too much stuff going on). It gives me something to work on the next time.

 

[Bix]

I've taken a couple private sector scenario-based and skill-based FoF classes.

The scenario-based class was with Tactical Response. I posted some comments on the class in this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2505935&highlight=force#post2505935

One of the instructors, Shay VanVlymen, has since started his own school that focuses largely on FoF type training:

http://mindsetlab.com/wordpress/

Haven't had a chance to do a class there yet, but I hope to fix that soon.

The more skill-based classes were with Shivworks - AMIS and ECQC:

http://shivworks.com/?page_id=881

I've used Airsoft, UTM, Code Eagle, and FX Simunitions in those classes.

Tons of takeaways from these types of classes, but maybe the biggest theme for me was to shift focus to 'softer' skillsets rather than more 'Tactical Handgun 101' stuff.

I'd echo Fred's general comments above - the quality of this type of training is really heavily driven by the instructors/role players. And safety is a real concern. Happily, these days there are volumes of class reviews available online and prospective students have lots of research material available.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

FOF is very beneficial especially if you have not trained with the OPFOR or opposing force. It is one thing to go against people you have trained with and something else who has gone through a different training set. I have done FOF training in the military within my own unit, with other units, against LE staff, against European counterparts, and against friendly Afghan forces. The most useful were the last 3 because they had different tactics.

 

[Rexster]

I attended SouthNarc's (with the late Paul Gomez) ECQC in Texas in 2005 and 2006. Live fire was not force-on-force, then the live weapons were put away, and we used Glocks firing Simunitions for the force-on-force. I think the curriculum has evolved somewhat since I attended. I am very glad I received this training when I was still young enough to really get the most from the force-on-force portion. The instructors are careful to accomodate physical limitations of the students, but the more the student is able to put into a scenario, the more benefit the student receives from it. I was in pain for a couple of months after my first ECQC; I really strained some abdominal muscles.

I work patrol for a big-city PD, which does not provide nearly enough force-on-force
training. My opinion of SouthNarc's material is that it is simple, brutal, and effective. My first experience with Simunitions was at ECQC. I have since used Sim-firing Glocks in my PD's in-in-service training, but my in-service training has not been nearly as physically demanding as ECQC.

 

[leadcounsel]

I've done it through the military using simunitions and also arcade style videos with a projector screen and M4s that fired a laser. Shoot and no-shoot scenarios.

It's very difficult and good training.

I've also done paintball many times. Also good experience.

This training makes you quickly realize that YOU can and will get shot.

My first time paintballing I got sniped on the thigh muscle/bone while I was moving. I imagined how that would probably be a life ending injury in real combat. Later I was shot right between the eyes and paint covered my goggles. Again, not a good result in a real firefight...

 

[Risky]

My first time paintballing I got sniped on the thigh muscle/bone while I was moving. I imagined how that would probably be a life ending injury in real combat. Later I was shot right between the eyes and paint covered my goggles. Again, not a good result in a real firefight...

Paintballs hurt like hell to the thighs more than anywhere else in my experience.

I've trained with simunitions, paintball, and airsoft in an active duty military capacity and the latter two as a civi just for kicks. It has its benefits for certain, but there are some downsides to playing games that can creep into your training conditioning if your not careful.

For example, getting hit with paint or pellets is often accompanied by ceasing your attack because your 'out'. In real life, if one gets conditioned to performing that way under stress, getting tagged in the vest could result in a stop and shut down rather than fighting through no matter what. Now, I'm not saying everyone that trains this way is going to jump up and scream 'I'm out' if they get hit... but it is a consideration if you regularly train FoF.

Still though, it's really essential if you really want to get a good full scope of training. Alone, it can't teach you how to take and shoot from cover... but it sure will teach you the value of doing so.

 

[HorseSoldier]

For example, getting hit with paint or pellets is often accompanied by ceasing your attack because your 'out'. In real life, if one gets conditioned to performing that way under stress, getting tagged in the vest could result in a stop and shut down rather than fighting through no matter what. Now, I'm not saying everyone that trains this way is going to jump up and scream 'I'm out' if they get hit... but it is a consideration if you regularly train FoF.

That was a fairly common issue we had to address with people who had not used simunitions before when I used them in .mil training. The simunition isn't there to keep score or assess who "lives" and "dies." It is used to attach a pain penalty to doing the wrong thing in the training -- to make stupid hurt, essentially. We would always have issues with the occasional person who had the game/"I'm hit, I'm out" mentality. We also had to watch our OPFOR a lot -- being at least partially made up of young, motivated junior enlisted types a pretty close eye had to be kept on them to ensure training and teaching points weren't being sacrificed in order to win the "game."

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

We would always have issues with the occasional person who had the game/"I'm hit, I'm out"

That's a bad mentality to have, whether you're in combat in the military or even as a civilian in a lethal force encounter. You are absolutely NOT out until you're dead. And those who have a "I will keep fighting" mindset actually do end up surviving more often than those who give up. If you're not dead, there's always something you can be doing. Try applying first aid, provide stationary cover with your weapon, use the radio (or cell phone). DO something. Keep your mind focused on staying in this life.

You're not out of the game til your dead.

 

[Bix]

FWIW, in every FoF class I've taken, students have been specifically instructed to keep fighting until the instructor ends the scenario -- regardless of how many sims rounds they happen to be absorbing ...

 

[conw]

I think the point about not "giving up" is actually one of the most important lessons from FOF. While badly executed FOF could inculcate that response, I've heard first-hand from at least one survivor of a shooting (who was shot and wounded severely) that his FOF simunitions training actually contributed to being able to keep fighting and not collapse under the psychological strain after taking gunfire.

 

[Surf]

Here is a snip from our facebook page. Details a bit about the topic. We train heavily in reality based Force on Force and it is one of THE best tools to improve real world performance in a critical incident. I have omitted some things so as to not make it some type of advertisement. At this time we only provide training to Federal, State, Local LE and select Military units, however if you can attend similar FoF training from a quality and reputable source, it is well worth it. We are so serious about the efficacy of this type of training our marking round budget exceeds many agencies live fire budgets.

The ********** ******** ***** now includes ATK certified, Force on Force instructors!

The *** is always striving to provide the most current, relevant and cutting edge tactics, techniques and protocols to their students! Utilizing the some of the most current and vetted training methodology, tactics and equipment is key to student success! While reality based, force on force training and marking rounds are not new to The ***, we are extremely proud to now include a partnership with ATK a world renown and industry leader in Aerospace, Defense and the Sporting world. In conjunction with SIMUNITONS certified instructors and FX marking rounds, the addition of ATK certified Force on Force instructors and ATK marking ammunition and equipment line up, the training experiences offered by the Specialized Services Group will only be that much more enhanced!

HOW DOES REALITY BASED, FORCE ON FORCE PROGRESSION OF TRAINING WORK?

With the use of some of the most advanced training tools, equipment and teaching methods The *** is able give the student as realistic of an immersion into the training environment, that as closely replicates real world encounters as possible. Keeping safety as a key component in training, we strive to greatly increase the students survivability in a real world force on force encounter.

To accomplish high quality results in an quick and efficient manner we use a progression of learning in a crawl, walk, run mindset via high repetition training employing correct tactics. The student starts in a low stress isolation learning and training environment with the instructor. The goal is to build a students proficiency and efficiency in a singular skill while building student confidence. The student then progresses into controlled mid level stress environments where these previously learned singular skills are now tested with the addition force on force marking rounds. From there the student will continue into complete reality based, force on force scenarios in the same controlled, but high stress environments utilizing any props / marking rounds / equipment needed. The student has the opportunity to utilize or employ any and all skills previously learned, but in a complete scenario reality based, force on force scenario.

HOW DOES REALITY BASED, FORCE ON FORCE HELP TO INCREASE A STUDENTS PERFORMANCE IN A REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENT?

High repetition of correct training, with as many practiced skills and scenarios as possible under high stress, helps to build a database of encounters in a students mind. This servers as somewhat of a quick reference or "I have seen this before". This allows a student to more quickly and efficiently "connect the dots" when faced with real world encounters. The ability to respond with greater speed and efficiency with increased accuracy in decision making is vastly improved. The result is an extremely effective learning method which highly increases student survivability in the real world.

Greatly increasing student survivability is the #1 goal of reality based, force on force training! High quality and experienced instructors, teaching the most up to date TTP's, with some of the most advanced training aids, is without a doubt one of THE single best methods to produce the highest quality results in students real world performance. With the addition of ATK certified instructors in Force on Force and the addition of the ATK marking rounds and training equipment line up will only help to increase the training experience with the *********** ******** *****!

Surf

 

[1911 guy]

Yup. Even when you get pinged, you keep in it until the safety observer or trainer tells you you're done. Nip the "I'm hit so I'm out" mentality in the bud. Especially what most of us train with and for, handguns, getting shot isn't usually fatal or even fight ending. Start dealing in rifles and that changes significantly, but you still fight until told otherwise.

 

[michaelbsc]

The lack of training is a major tool for the anti-gun crowd.

Here is a video aimed directly at convincing the viewers that "guns are bad" rather than advocating training. But the obvious take home lesson to me is that the training issue is even more important than many admit.

http://youtu.be/8QjZY3WiO9s