Forgotten weapons

[cluttonfred]

Researching my recent M1917 purchase I was surprised to learn that 2/3 to 3/4 (depending which source you check) of U.S. troops in the AEF in WWI were in fact armed with these rifles and not the better known 1903 Springfield variants.

Does anyone have any other 20th century small arms to suggest as very important in a conflict -- WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. -- but in fact often overlooked?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

WWI -- in addition to the M1917 Enfield, we also issued Candian Rosses and Russian M91s. The latter were also used in the Archangel expedition.

WWII -- primarily the M1903A3 Springfield, made by Remington and Smith-Corona. Some Marine units used the Johnson rifle and LMG, and the Special Service Force used the Johnson LMG.

Korea -- almost all weapons issued were the standard, primarily the M1 rifle and the M1 and M2 carbines.

Vietnam -- Advisers were issued the M2 carbine early in the war (I swapped mine for an M1 rifle). The M14 was the standard rifle in the early days.

 

[cluttonfred]

Did we really issue Ross rifles? Ewww. Give me a Mosin-Nagant M91 any day.

Love the Johnson -- I grew up not far from where they were made in Rhode Island and my grandfather has Johnson's book on automatic weapons. From what I have read, the Marines liked them, and as good a rifle as the Garand was, the Johnson could have been developed to be as good or better, but we had already made our choice.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Did we really issue Ross rifles?

I have a Model 1905 Ross with a "US" surcharge stamped into the stock behind the trigger guard.

 

[Onmilo]

Actually, US Troops assigned to Archangel Russia during World War One were issued American made,( Remington & Westinghouse), Mosin Nagant 1891 long rifles.

 

[PercyShelley]

What about the reising SMG in WWII?

 

[gtmerkley]

the ak47 is being used by U.S. forces
althow unofficle it dose happen quite often and whall the Ak47 is far from Little Known Many Refuse to beleaf Our Man Would Ever use "Sovite Knokoff's" Over our Beloved "Widow Maker" Dont Get Me Wrong The M16 is a Fine Rifle It Just Dont Stand UP TO dirt vary well Sorry If I Got A Little Off Topic Just My "PIONT TWO"

 

[cluttonfred]

What about the reising SMG in WWII?

Forgotten, yes, but significant, not really, in terms of numbers issued and used. Too complex, didn't handle dirt and sand well -- a big problem for a Marine.

I will admit that it was a great-looking gun, very pugnacious, especially in the M55 folding stock version.

It's probably safe to say that the Reising was another gun that was overtaken by events and never really had a chance to get the bugs worked out of it.

Pics from http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_smg_reising.php and http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg94-e.htm.

 

[LB7_Driver]

gtmerkley
Join Date: 06-08-08
Posts: 33

"the ak47 is being used by U.S. forces
althow unofficle it dose happen quite often and whall the Ak47 is far from Little Known Many Refuse to beleaf Our Man Would Ever use "Sovite Knokoff's" Over our Beloved "Widow Maker" Dont Get Me Wrong The M16 is a Fine Rifle It Just Dont Stand UP TO dirt vary well Sorry If I Got A Little Off Topic Just My "PIONT TWO" "

Gotta quote that one for posterity.

 

[19-3Ben]

edited to remove.

 

[Eightball]

The Webly that was before the .455 is lesser known, not too many people would recognize a Carcano if you sat it in front of them, few people've ever seen a Beretta 1934, not many people remember the Owen SMG, or the Colt Monitor, the MP3008 is lesser-known....those are all I can think of offhand.

 

[Cosmoline]

Did the Colt Monitor get used in WWII? I thought it was strictly law enforcement.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Did the Colt Monitor get used in WWII? I thought it was strictly law enforcement.

The Colt Monitor was the civilian version of the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR).

 

[Cosmoline]

I know that. What I'm wondering is if Eightball is talking about the use of that weapon in WWII. Did the military ever issue it? I mean the Monitor variant not the BAR proper.

 

[Geronimo45]

Shotguns in WWI. Effective enough in trench environs that the Germans wanted 'em banned for being barbaric/inhumane. Not sure of the model used or the numbers issued.

 

[Harve Curry]

Once asked a veteran WWII soldier what his favorite weapon was. He replied "a Tommy Gun and a hatchet".
He was a 2nd Ranger and had gone up those cliffs at Point du Hoc.
Forgot to ask who made the hatchet.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Shotguns in WWI. Effective enough in trench environs that the Germans wanted 'em banned for being barbaric/inhumane. Not sure of the model used or the numbers issued.

Mostly Winchester Model '97s and 12s.

Model 12s and Remington 870s were fairly widely used in Viet Nam -- my company had one of each.

 

[kragluver]

An excellent WW1 reference is Bruce Canfield's book US Infantry Weapons of WW1. There are chapters on the shotguns, rifles, pistols, etc. Lots of pic's. The Ross and the Krag were both issued for training purposes during WW1. A few thousand Krag's actually made it to France in 1917 and one Engineer unit armed with Krag's came under hostile fire.

M1917s were also use quite a bit during WW2 by US, Free French, Japanese (captured weapons) and Chinese forces. US use of the '17 was apparently primarily in North Africa, Sicily and in the Philippines early in the war.

 

[Sunray]

"...had a chance to get the bugs worked out of it..." The major one being that all the parts were hand fitted in the factory and were not interchangeable with other Reisings. Doing it turned it into a jam-o-matic.
The Johnson LMG gets over looked too. 1st SSF used them a lot. Mind you, they carried more MGs than any infantry unit.

 

[Cosmoline]

There have been some really interesting non-firearm weapons issued to US troops. I've seen a WICKED looking butcher knife the Marines used to use over in the Philippines and China. It may have been called a Plumb knife perhaps? I'm not sure.

Going further back, jr. officers used to be issued spontoons, which are actually a refined sort of pole arm. Lewis and Clark had them and used them for backup on griz.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Johnson LMG gets over looked too. 1st SSF used them a lot. Mind you, they carried more MGs than any infantry unit.

A belt-fed Johnson would have been a real winner. With the sideways magazine, it was clumsy.

 

[Full Clip]

Just a pic of the Johnson LMG.



I'd not heard of it until a year ago or so when I saw a History Channel special.

 

[cluttonfred]

If you haven't seen it, there's a great range test of the Johnson Automatic Rifle (not LMG) on www.theboxotruth.com.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Remington made Mosin-Nagants?!? Cool!

Gotta quote that one for posterity.

Egad man - that IS one for the archives - wow!

 

[oneshooter]

Yes, Remington, Winchester, and Smith Corona all made MN91's. The order was for some 3million rifles from the Czar. When the Reds took over the US Goverment declined to issue export permits. The US Goverment had a LOT more commen sense then.
They went into storage till WW2, when they were used as training rifles, the origional order also included some 45 MILLION rounds of ammo, also not shipped.
I believe that Francis Bannerman obtained the majority of these weapons after WW2.


Oneshooter
Livin in Texas