Forgotten weapons

[Cosmoline]

Small correction: Smith-Corona didn't make M91's. There was in fact no such company at the time. There was Corona, and there was LC Smith. They made typewriters but got into the firearm business during WWII.

Also, the M91's weren't all in cold storage. We sold some off and distributed some to national guard units. They were absolutely kicking around on the civilian market before WWII and I've seen pics of a collector from the 20's with a Bannerman M91.

 

[Jason_G]

Lewis?

What about the Lewis machine gun? The one with the large pan mag.

Jason

 

[goon]

Revolvers, both Colt and Smith & Wessons in .38 Special and .45ACP, saw a lot of use in WWII.
But the 1911 gets all the glory...

And the PPSh-41. The Russians issued a whole lot of those things for their firepower against the Germans.

 

[Don357]

There were also some Winchester Model 1894 .30-30 carbines in use at the beginning of WW1. Used mostly by US Army Signal Corp troops (The Spruce Guard)to guard the logging operations in the Pacific North West where they were logging the Sitka spruce trees to build airplanes. However, some did make it overseas with the American Expeditionary Force. These guns serial numbers range from 835800 to 852500. These are the real deal and are very valuable. There are counterfeits out there, so watch the serial numbers.

Information courtesy of American Rifleman Magazine Feb. 2008

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I understand that H&R's Reisings that remained Stateside went to National Guard/Civil Defense units who were assigned to bridge and railway guard duty. I've heard stories from Pacific Theater Marines who said their Reisings rusted to a non-functional state within days, and tended to be 'lost or irrebuildably damaged in battle', as a euphemism for 'junked and traded for a real rifle'.

25 years ago I knew that Numrich had lots of parts for them, though- both Model 50 and 55. I heard that there were some still in police inventories as late as the early 1980's.

The Johnson Automatic Rifle was held in high esteem by the Marines, but it tended to be prone to vertical stringing and was dang slow to reload. The barrel was a little delicate as well, and they weren't nearly as sturdy as a Garand.

During Vietnam, there were a few Swedish C-G M/45's floating around until Sweden found out and cut off the supply, at which point Smith and Wesson began production of a similar subgun, the M76.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[George Hill]

The most forgotten rifle of the American Military is probably the Spencer. Everyone gushes on the Henry, but the Spencer was real deal. I know it's not a 20th Century rifle... just sayin.

 

[esmith]

the ak47 is being used by U.S. forces
althow unofficle it dose happen quite often and whall the Ak47 is far from Little Known Many Refuse to beleaf Our Man Would Ever use "Sovite Knokoff's" Over our Beloved "Widow Maker" Dont Get Me Wrong The M16 is a Fine Rifle It Just Dont Stand UP TO dirt vary well Sorry If I Got A Little Off Topic Just My "PIONT TWO"

Uhhh.... Learn to type better. Can't understand.

 

[[email protected]]

You mentioned the 1917 rifle, how about the P-14? Same basic rifle but in 303 Brit. I thought most of the soldiers in WW2 had the Garand not the 1903-A3? I know they were used, just thought the Garand was the most prominent. As far as the 45 revolvers used in WW2, My grandfather (a doctor in the pacific) carried a Colt 1917 with the moon clips. Dad carried an M1 carbine in the early 70's on trips up into the hills in the Phillippines. The carcano that was mentioned is a fun gun to shoot, mines a model 38

 

[cluttonfred]

The P14s were never in general combat issue as far as I know, just issued to home guard units in the UK, though some were used in combat as sniper rifles. Once the windage is set on the front sight, the P14 (and M1917) are very accurate rifles.

If the rear sight on the M1917 had been adjustable, it might well have superseded the 1903 Springfield. The sights were certainly better and it was a very tough, strong rifle and we had a lot more of them than Springfields. It would have been a minor issue to modify the M1917 rear sight to allow windage adjustments, but then, as now, "buy American" was a big part of military procurement and the M1917 was American-made but British-designed and the government arsenals were set up for the 1903.

There is nice article on the M1917 on the ODCMP site (that's a link to a .pdf file). That author, and others, have suggested that it was the influence of long-range target shooters (National Match) that tipped the scales in favor of the Springfield. In a battle rifle, windage adjustment is rarely used by your ordinary rifleman once the rifle is zeroed, but for long-range target work it was a royal PITA not have it.

 

[kragluver]

I have a couple of '17s and I do love 'em. Two other things going against them compared to the '03s were they were a bit heavier and longer. I agree though -- the major issue against the '17 appears to have been political.

 

[Ash]

M1916's were used in the Archangel invasion of 1920.

US Mosin producers were Remington, as said, and New England Westinghouse, which was the Stevens factory (or was bought by Stevens).

Barrels were made by SIG, FN, Tikka, SAKO, Valmet, and others not in the Soviet Union.

 

[cluttonfred]

True enough, kraglover, but who knows? If the M1917 had been adopted, maybe we would have cut them down to a carbine length, sort of Kar98k or Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine.

As for your nickname, about the slickest bolt-action rifle I ever handled was an original Krag carbine. I loved that magazine and the ability to top off (like the Johnson rifle) without opening the bolt. Sigh, I think it went to one of my uncles (there are lots of them).

I certainly wouldn't feel undergunned with anything in .30-40 Krag.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

True enough, kraglover, but who knows? If the M1917 had been adopted, maybe we would have cut them down to a carbine length, sort of Kar98k or Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine.

Interesting story -- the drive to adopt the M1917 as standard was pretty strong. In those days, the Infantry insignia changed every time we adopted a new rifle, showing the standard issue of the day.

If you go to Fort Benning, the home of the Infantry, there is a mosaic in the floor of the Officer's Club at the entrance showing the Infantry Crossed Rifles -- and they are M1917s!

 

[goon]

Anyone ever heard of the Cei Rigotti rifle?
IIRC, it was a select fire rifle firing a 6.5mm cartridge. I think it also used a 25 round magazine.
The thing about it is that it was developed in the late 1890's and early 1900's so it predated the STG's by quite some time.
So the Germans weren't the first ones to come up with the idea of an "assault rifle".

 

[kragluver]

The '17: I think it would have made a wonderful carbine. Of course, by then, SA was already thinking ahead to the next generation rifle in what became the M1. Budgets had been slashed and employment plummeted so much that it took them several years to re-arsenal the '03s and '17s after WW1. I doubt they had budget for another project.

The Krag: I have only one and its the rifle I most often take to the range. With cast bullets, it really shines. There is no slicker bolt action. As you said too, I think the advantage of being able to top off the magazine with the bolt closed is often over-looked. In fact, in reading about the selection of the Krag in 1892... the decision had come down to the Krag versus the Lee Enfield; both rifles performed very well during the various "torture" tests. The Krag won out due to the ability to top off with the bolt closed.

 

[kBob]

OK, I'll play.

WWII US rifle Known as the Bushmaster.

OK local "manufacture"

Guess of what and where and you win an Atta Boy.

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[woodybrighton]

The royal navy had a submachine gun called the lanchester stayed in service till the 1980s basically a British produced mp28 very solid well made piece of kit just too expensive for what it was a 9mm bullet hose

 

[cluttonfred]

OK, Bob, I''l bite, what are you talking about?

OK, I'll play.

WWII US rifle Known as the Bushmaster.

OK local "manufacture"

Guess of what and where and you win an Atta Boy.

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Bushmaster was a slam-fire single shot shotgun, used in the Phillippines.

 

[Deer Hunter]

I was pretty sure the Bushmaster was a bullpup pistol in .223 that was used in vietnam.

 

[Baba Louie]

Bushmaster...
Panama based troops cut down the '03 to be somewhat more handy in the jungle.

 

[Float Pilot]

If you are going to limit us to the 20th century.....

1. The 1895 Winchester Lee Navy in 6mm. Phased out in Rifle and Machine gun form around 1903 by the Navy and Marine Corps.

2. The 1903 Springfield Rifle in caliber 30-03. Only used for 3 years until they developed the 30-06 cartridge.

3. The model 1894 Winchester carbine in 30-30. Yes indeed it was used by US troops tasked with guarding timber reserves and in areas like Alaska for bear protection. I guess they figured the soft point 30-30 ammo was better than pointy hard-ball..

4. Remington model 11 semi-auto shotgun. (Looks like a Browning Auto 5) I don't know how many they bought, but I have one that is Army marked.

5. Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters in 30-06 as sniper rifles. Ask Carlos Hathcock.

6. The M-6 survival rifle in 22 Hornet and 410 shotgun. The real ones made by Ithaca in the 1950s with the 14 inch barrels. Not the wannabe civilain clones.

7. The bushmaster aircrew semi-auto survival carbine in 221 Fireball. The civilian versions were in 223. The shorter barrel in the real gun worked better with 221 Fireball.

8. The Chauchat (cho-cho) machine gun that US troops were forced to use in WWI. It was in 8mm Lebel and a real piece of junk.

9. The Stoner AR-5 bolt action 22 Hornet aircrew survival gun adopted in 1956. Called the M-4 by the Air Force.

10. The Savage / Stevens over & under shotguns / rifles bought by the US Army Airforce as survival guns during WWII. Particularly for the Pacific area.

11. Stevens Model 416-2 .22 caliber training and marksmanship rifle. 10,338 purchased by the US. govmt.

12. Stevens 520-30 12 Gage Shotgun in Trench and riot configurations. 35,000 plus purchased by the US Gov.

13. Stevens 620A 12 Gage Shotgun in Riot config, 12,000 plus bought.

14. Savage 720 12 Gage Shotgun Semi auto, This is a "training gun" used to teach aerial gunners how to shoot at moving targets, similar to shooting trap or skeet. This semi-automatic model was based on Browning's patents, and was very similar to the Remington Model 11, and those made in Belgium by FN.

15. Savage Model 24 Rifle-Shotgun Survival Gun .22 long rifle and .410 shotgun. 1,900 bought around 1949. Were repalced later by the M-4s, and M-6s.

16. The Swedish K submachine guns. 9mm.. Numbers were purchased and used by special ops groups as were some Browning Hi-Power (P-35) pistols. I last saw a Swedish K being used by a Delta dude during Desert Storm.




During World War I, the Stevens facilities were turned over to "New England Westinghouse" who produced about 750,000 Russian Mosin Nagant rifles under contract for the Czarist government. After the Russian Revolution in 1917, the U.S. government purchased about 280,000 undelivered rifles from New England Westinghouse and Remington. Many of these were issued to training units but a few went to U.S. troops later sent to fight in Russia on the side of the "White Russians" against the Communist "Red Russians". The U.S. issued rifles are marked with U.S. style eagle and ordnance bomb inspector markings.

 

[Nolo]

Float Pilot, you forgot the M1917 and the American Mosins (not that they haven't been mentioned already)!
Here's my list of what I consider to be the forgotten weapons in 20th Century American history:
M1895 Winchester in 6mm Lee Navy.
M1916 Remington and Westinghouse Mosin-Nagants in 7.62x54mmR.
M1917 Enfield .30-06.
M1903 Springfield in .30-03 (curiously, I knew of this phenomenon well before I even knew the difference between 7.62 NATO and 7.62 Soviet).
M42 UD-42 SMG, 9mm Parabellum.
M1918 BAR (as used in WWI) in .30-06.
M1918 Chauchat in .30-06.
M1918 "Automatic Pistol" (Pedersen Device) in .30 Pedersen.
M50 Reising SMG in .45 ACP.
M1917 Revolver in .45 ACP.
Smith and Wesson "Victory" Revolver in .38 Special.
M1941 Johnson Rifle in .30-06.
M1941 Johnson LMG in .30-06.
Reising M60 Carbine in .45 ACP (kind of a training M1 Carbine).
M1912 Winchester Shotgun in 12 Gauge.
Smith and Wesson Model 76 SMG in 9x19 Parabellum.
Stoner 63 Rifle in 5.56x45mm.
Stoner 63 LMG in 5.56x45mm.
M1928 Thompson SMG in .45 ACP (most people remember the M1, not too many the M1928).

That's all I can think of right now...

 

[pbhome71]

Browning BAR in 8mm

You probably know this, but I believe that German also use BAR in WWII.

If I remember correctly, Poland had a number of BAR in 8mm. These were made by F.N.
see http://www.bellum.nu/armoury/BARM1918.html


They were captured when German overrun Poland. These BAR were assigned to a number of units.

 

[Sunray]

"...was in 8mm Lebel..." Chauchats used by the U.S. were in .30-06. Apparently, the French manufacturers used incorrect chamber dimensions and made it worse. It's biggest problem was the open sided semi-circular mag. Let all that lovely mud in.