Form 1 suppressor question

[kimberkid]

I'm on my 3rd form1 silencer ... in fact I just filled out the form today ... as has already been mentioned; Model, length and caliber is all you need.

My first F1 suppressor was for an 11-inch .45 caliber can ... my thinking was that anything I shoot will fit through a 45 caliber hole. I still haven't gotten around to building it ... and as time has rolled on, when I do get it built it will have a hole large enough for a 45 but I'm thinking it will mainly be used for my MP5 clone ... which is 9mm ... that should make a really quiet 9mm ... now I just have to figure out how to put a 3-lug QD mount on it!

 

[pdsmith505]

I 50% agree. Unless you do a horrible job of eliminating the evidence or you post pix of the internals online, no one could ever know if you swapped out a baffle or two. So that's on the honor system. Once you enlarge (or shrink ) a hole those can be measured against what is on the Form 1.

I don't know what the reasonable tolerance is, and we all agree that in law there isn't one, but I'm unwilling to drain my bank account to be the poster child for 22 caliber silencers with .490 bores. Remember, they don't have to convict you, they just have to charge you for the legal fees to start piling up.

I do think we all agree this is a very unlikely scenario. The chances of ATF showing up at my house to measure my silencer are about the same as being selected as Brad Pitt's stand-in. But if you've somehow done something that landed you on their radar it would undoubtedly be added as an additional charge.

This is what I'm driving to with the whole "I used my .45 caliber gun and my .22 caliber silencer in self defense" line.

On one hand, the ATF would have a Form 1 for a .22 caliber can. On the other, they would have a can attached to a .45 caliber gun that was used for self defense.

You may beat the rap for illegally manufacturing a silencer, with regards to enlarging the bore... but is it worth the ride and the lawyers' fees when it comes time to defend the assertion that "my .22 can was drilled to .500 for clearance purposes to prevent a baffle strike"?

One in a million chance that this scenario would play out... but the cost to defend your choices are vast.

 

[yugorpk]

What law are you breaking? i understand, OK I really don't, the need or desire or maybe even the thought process behind the desire to be over the top overly cautious but in the absence of actually breaking any laws I cant see what you'd possibly be charged with. All the ATF or anyone else wants to see is that you paid your $200 to register your silencer when you built it and that you filled in the form with some sort of number and that you engraved the can with the right information. No one, including the ATF gives a damn what size holes your baffles have. If thats to much to wrap your head around then call it a 45 silencer and shoot .22's through it. No one gets prosecuted for this stuff because no one cares if you dont break the law.

 

[pdsmith505]

What law are you breaking? i understand, OK I really don't, the need or desire or maybe even the thought process behind the desire to be over the top overly cautious but in the absence of actually breaking any laws I cant see what you'd possibly be charged with. All the ATF or anyone else wants to see is that you paid your $200 to register your silencer when you built it and that you filled in the form with some sort of number and that you engraved the can with the right information. No one, including the ATF gives a damn what size holes your baffles have. If thats to much to wrap your head around then call it a 45 silencer and shoot .22's through it. No one gets prosecuted for this stuff because no one cares if you dont break the law.

You are absolutely right that there is no portion of USC that stipulates what range of clearances are acceptable for a given caliber. I'll even admit that it is correct that there aren't ATF agents walking around gun ranges with calipers checking bore diameters against Form 1/4's.

But I've already proposed a situation where the ATF might be wondering what is going on with regards to the bore of a silencer:

If your papered-as .22 can is attached to your .45 that you just used to stop a mugger, do you really want a prosecutor looking into the possibility that you lied on the Form 1?

The real life, honest to goodness fact is that the ATF's opinion on the matter is:

Q2: May a Federal firearms licensee repair a silencer by replacing worn or damaged components?

A: A person who is licensed under the Gun Control Act (GCA) to manufacture firearms and who has paid the special (occupational) tax to manufacture National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms may replace a component part or parts of a silencer. Repairs may not be done if they result in removal, obliteration, or
alteration of the serial number, as this would violate 18 U.S.C. § 922(k). If a silencer part bearing the serial number, other than the outer tube, must be replaced, the new part must be marked with the same serial number as the replacement part.

The term "repair" does not include replacement of the outer tube of the silencer. The outer tube is the largest single part of the silencer, the main structural component of the silencer, and is the part to which all other component parts are attached. The replacement of the outer tube is so significant an event that it amounts to the "making" of a new silencer. As such, the new silencer must be marked, registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA.

In the event that identical replacement parts for a silencer are not available, new and different component parts may be used as long as the silencer retains the same dimensions and caliber. In addition, the repair may result in a minimal reduction in the length of the outer tube due to rethreading, but repair may not increase the length of the outer tube. Increasing the length of the outer tube significantly affects the performance of the silencer and results in the "making" of a new silencer. As stated above, a new silencer must be marked, registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA. Reducing the length of the tube by a minimal amount in order to repair a silencer is often necessary to replace damaged end caps, as the tube must be rethreaded. Such minimal reduction of the length of the tube uses all of the original parts, does not significantly affect performance of the silencer, and may be done as part of a repair process without making a new silencer.

Persons other than qualified manufacturers may repair silencers, but replacement parts are "silencers" as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(24) that must be registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA.

Your thought process is obviously different (specifically, it is less prudent) than mine, but I'll walk you through how I reached my conclusions.

I take the above opinion and reason that the only way to determine what caliber a silencer is is through a measurement of the bore size. There must be clearance of course, but what is reasonable? All the information I've read indicates that somewhere in the range of 0.060" over the bore size is correct. From there, I have two things in my hand: an approved Form 1 with the caliber of the silencer, and the silencer itself.

Now, lets say the silencer is registered and engraved as a .45, but is only bored out to allow a .22 caliber projectile to pass through. It's pretty obvious that either (a) the Form 1 is incorrect or (b) the caliber of the silencer has been changed. If (a) is the case, I'd be worried about the line at the bottom of the Form 1: "Under penalties imposed by 26 U.S.C. 5861, I certify that the statements contain in this Certification, and any attached documents in support thereof, are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief." If (b) is the case, then you are running around with what the ATF considers to be an unregistered silencer.

Lets say the silencer is registered and engraved as a .22, but is bored out to the point where a .45 can pass through it without damage. Sure, is is possible that the maker could have grabbed his 1/2" drill bit instead of his 9/32", but it is also possible that somewhere down the line the caliber of the silencer had been changed (b above) or the Form 1 was filled out incorrectly on purpose (a above).

If you found yourself in front of a jury, would you want your freedom relying on the argument that you needed 360% more clearance than is typical to prevent baffle strikes? Do you think that your argument would hold more weight than the engravings on the silencer, the approved form 1, and the testimony of experts?

Food for thought:

It shall be unlawful for any person—

...

(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record

...

(l) to make, or cause the making of, a false entry on any application, return, or record required by this chapter, knowing such entry to be false.

Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

 

[yugorpk]

I understand your thought process but I just don't agree with it. I see it as a totally unnecessary overly prudent way to look at the law. When in doubt I fall back on case law if I don't how how the govt would interpret a vague law. In the absence of case law I see that the law is wide open to interpretation and that the authorities do not consider wide prosecution to be a priority. In short if its not specifically illegal I don't care and do what I feel the law allows. You see things differently..

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks for all the replies guys. It's really helpful to get the input of other knowledgeable people. I think we can end this one since it's really just opinion based. And like many things pertaining to gun laws in America, it's just a matter of making our own interpretations and accepting the risk if we're wrong.

Thanks again. If anyone happens to find any hard evidence one way or another feel free to PM me.

 

[UhKlem]

I have both a commercial .30 can with a 0.410" bore and a commercial 9mm can with the same bore. Both suppress their respective rounds superbly. An Octane 45 with a 0.5" bore suppresses 22 rim fire to a reasonable level. As long as the stated caliber on the Form 1 will pass through the can you can over bore the can as much as your ears or machining skills require. If you are worried that this might come under scrutiny some day find a way to document the design with a dated record.