mass form 1 suppressor disapprovals

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greyling22

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FYI: over on the reddit NFA forum people are posting all over the place that they are getting form 1 suppressor denials. The ATF's position appears to be that tubes and kits etc are all suppressor parts, and you cannot make a new suppressor out of existing suppressor parts.

now how they know the source of the components is beyond me. If I recall correctly, all I sent them was a length and a caliber.
 
Read this:
https://blog.princelaw.com/2022/02/28/update-on-diversified-machine-products/
As it currently stands, ATF’s apparent position is that Form 1 silencers manufactured using “silencer parts” from Diversified Machine, are contraband and must be surrendered to a local field office. I have confirmed with some of our local field offices in Pennsylvania that this is ATF’s position as they are aware of it, and they are prepared to received these items.


If you bought a Diversified Machine kit you might want to check the mailbox.
Now, anyone remember that guy here who was so confident about his Chinese solvent traps and fuel filters? I'll bet those are next.
 
I think ATF is putting themselves into a legal quandary here. As mentioned above they do not know the source of materials used/intended to manufacture the devices in question. Is a piece of bar stock a “silencer”? If not, what is the legal difference and where is the line?

They are now essentially stating that there is no legal way to form 1 a silencer. So now what happens to the hundreds of thousands if not millions of approved stamps? The law has not changed since they were approved.
 
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I think ATF is putting themselves into a legal quandary here. As mentioned above they do not know the source of materials used/intended to manufacture the devices in question. Is a piece of bar stock a “silencer”? If not, what is the legal difference and where is the line?

They are now essentially stating that there is no legal way to form 1 a silencer. So now what happens to the hundreds of thousands if not millions of approved stamps? The law has not changed since they were approved.

but it's not about the law. it's about unelected bureaucrats changing their minds about opinions and interpretations. see the bumpstock fiasco. multiple letters stating they do not violate the law for years, then, "hey guys we changed our minds and they're illegal now. hand over your property without compensation" also, as far as I can tell, the ATF leadership hates guns and gun owners
 
They seem to have denied people who did not own a kit...which is essentially making an accusation, in writing, of a felony offense. This should be actionable as slander, if nothing else.

Anyone know a lawyer that will take this on Pro Bono or for a percentage?
 
They seem to have denied people who did not own a kit...which is essentially making an accusation, in writing, of a felony offense. This should be actionable as slander, if nothing else.

Written would be libel, but there are other components to defamation, harm resulting from untrue statements made/published to third parties being the primary. These are not public unless the individuals make them so.
  1. Defamation

tort of defamation includes both libel (written statements) and slander (spoken statements).

Elements
To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the person or entity who is the subject of the statement.

That doesn't mean other aspects of this aren't actionable, but it's not defamation.

That said, there's a lot of speculation right now, but no definitive answers. It could have been an error. Eforms has issues, I've had form 2s and form 3s just disappear before, and it certainly could have been a human error, selecting denial for all applications that day when it was supposed to be just one, or perhaps only the ones which identified an original manufacturer. I suggest we stay the pitchforks until we know whether it was intentional or not.

If their position truly does turn out to be anything from which you intend to make a silencer is a silencer part, then yeah, serious problem. But we need to know that's the position, not just suspect it before we act in any capacity beyond inquiries.
 
The ATF's position appears to be that tubes and kits etc are all suppressor parts, and you cannot make a new suppressor out of existing suppressor parts.

They never asked me what I was building them from. I also never made a single part until my form 1 came back approved.

If someone is doing something illegal, go after them, not me.

I suppose you could sue the .gov, let us know how that works out…
 
In the long run, we need to press Congress for an amendment to the law. Possession of incomplete parts, especially if you don't have everything for a completed kit, should be allowed. Possession of consumables like wipes should be either unregulated, or explicitly permitted to any holder of a Form 1, Form 4, or SOT.
 
We do have some additional information today.

Their position is basically that all solvent trap parts & kits have been determined to be silencers/silencer parts. This is not a surprise, they've been going after solvent trap companies for some time, and many of us knew that day was probably coming, especially as the traps and internal parts for them became more and more advanced and the advertising more and more prevalent in Form 1 suppressor groups & boards. When you start making "sauce cups" out of Inconel and Stellite and pushing them in groups predicated on building silencers, it becomes pretty difficult to argue they're meant for condiments and not superheated gasses.

They are claiming that people who were not planning to use any "existing silencer parts", which we still don't and likely never will have a clear definition on where they draw that line, will need to provide details on the materials, sources, design, machining methods to get approval. It is unclear if those Form 1s will be resurrected or require a new filing.

We don't know what the ATF's plan is for all the companies who had been making traps, filters, etc. It would have made more sense to send out C&D orders to them before pulling this nonsense, but at this point, the extreme majority have voluntarily shut down operations and poofed websites. I personally can't imagine they'd try to go after any of the ones who ceased production before even getting an order to, would definitely be a case of ex post facto.

We also don't know if they have plans to determine existing approved Form 1s built on/with trap parts or kits are contraband. Again, that is a pretty sticky situation with ex post facto, since these things have been around for quite some time, publicly advertised and sold, and it's common knowledge in the industry that they were being converted into silencers.

So, yeah.........we don't know a ton, but we know that they are now considering all solvent trap parts and kits bought with the intent to make a silencer to have been silencer parts and therefor illegal to possess.

If you have such things around that were not yet converted, don't file a Form 1 for them now. It'll be denied, or you'll have perjured yourself stating that you weren't using such parts in the build you applied for. Whether you dispose of them or decide to use them as actual traps or for some other purpose is your choice to make, but do so with the understanding that if the .gov decided to go after you on it and had any way of demonstrating your intent was to build a silencer, including social media conversations or text messages about them, you might be sitting on a felony.
 
At the same time they would no longer be considered "firearms" and no longer protected by the second amendment.
With several states outright banning ownership of suppressors (California, Delaware, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, and Rhode Island), they're apparently not protected under the Second Amendment now.
 
No, it just means you’ll have to buy a commercial can on a Form 4.

You can still build a Form 1, but at least for the time being, you'll actually have to build it, whether the old school way with drilled & formed freeze plugs and such or with proper parts you are able to machine from raw stock.

Frankly, I don't see this latest edict holding up, the proper process to enact redefinition of legal items into contraband was not adhered to and they have truly overplayed their hand anyway. There are already lawsuits planned if not initiated, including by GOA. But unless/until congressional action or the courts change things, I'd recommend not messing with solvent traps or similar things by a different name. Might beat the rap, won't beat the ride.
 
You can still build a Form 1, but at least for the time being, you'll actually have to build it, whether the old school way with drilled & formed freeze plugs and such or with proper parts you are able to machine from raw stock.

Frankly, I don't see this latest edict holding up, the proper process to enact redefinition of legal items into contraband was not adhered to and they have truly overplayed their hand anyway. There are already lawsuits planned if not initiated, including by GOA. But unless/until congressional action or the courts change things, I'd recommend not messing with solvent traps or similar things by a different name. Might beat the rap, won't beat the ride.
I’m confused about that because the Form 1 doesn’t ask what you’re using to build it. How do the examiners who denied all those forms know they were planning to use solvent trap kits? From what I’ve read they were basically assuming almost everyone is starting from a kit given the mass denials.
 
I’m confused about that because the Form 1 doesn’t ask what you’re using to build it.

It does now, evidently there's a pop up that's been added telling people to provide details about the parts, process & sources, worded in a way that's designed to entrap.

See post #31 on page 2:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/eForm-1-denied/55-533248/&page=2

How do the examiners who denied all those forms know they were planning to use solvent trap kits? From what I’ve read they were basically assuming almost everyone is starting from a kit given the mass denials.

They don't. They just made that assumption for all 850 processed that day. There's been a ton of chatter about that in various groups and forums, many who were denied hadn't bought any materials or parts yet, some stated intent to machine the parts themselves upon approval.

Like I said, they went about it all wrong. The correct way was with announcements of FTB/FATD proposed redefinitions, comment periods, published effective dates new policies/determinations would take effect, etc. I do believe this one is gonna blow up in their face, it was done even more fast and loose than the botched pistol brace ban they had to backpedal on. I'm sure all the congresscritters aren't happy about having their phones and email blown up by thousands of angry constituents because of yet another problem child agency overreach.

I've had positive interactions with all the ATF personnel I've dealt with, some are even customers of ours. But the upper echelon are Biden admin lackeys and act accordingly. Same as any other agency, including the military; at the top, they either fall in or get a pink slip.
 
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No, MachIVshooter is right. We've got allies in Martinsburg...but they have to keep a low profile. Part of the problem is that the laws ATF is trying to enforce are antiques. In this case, it was part of FOPA'86, which classified suppressor components as suppressors. Some of which was a self-inflicted wound - there were ads in Shotgun News for baffles one issue, tubes the next issue. The problem being that some components, notably wipes, are consumable items.

And this was really botched...anyone with a Form 1 filed is making a good-faith effort to comply with the NFA. They're the people you leave alone.
 
Even applications that made no mention of kits or solvent traps were blanket denied.

Have they changed something? I have never noted anywhere on any of my form 1’s what the product would be made from once approved.

edit: Wow, do not do this!

On March 3rd, ATF notified thousands of applicants with pending Form 1 suppressor applications that they will be required to provide pictures and descriptions of all parts and components that will be used to make the suppressor, or their application will be disapproved.

If you do send them a photo of barstock.

5954970F-333D-4E2B-AD41-1D6D23F92B0C.jpeg

And tell them it’s against federal law to make any component, to be able to photograph it, until AFTER they return your approved form1 or are they trying to entrap you?
 
I seem to recall reading the story of the "Marijuana tax" that could only be paid if you were in possession of untaxd Marijuana, a real catch-22 issue if I do say so. This seems VERY similar, and I would hope a judge would slap the stupid out of someone for thinking of it.
 
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