Suppressors on a form 1

[USAF_Vet]

Have a hypothetical question here regarding making a suppressor, and failing.

If I'm reading things correctly, you have to pay your $200, file and get back your approved stamp before you start building the device.

What happens if the project goes south and goes into the scrap bin?
I guess the question applies to all form 1 builds, too.

With suppresors though, can you scrap the initial suppressor if it fails and start over using the same stamp?

 

[Aaron Baker]

There's a fair amount of information out there about how the ATF considers each separate suppressor part to be a suppressor in and of itself, which is basically their way of preventing people from making "extra" parts for their suppressors.

So you can't have extra parts. Beyond that, I think the questions is probably somewhat difficult to answer because, as a practical matter, hardly anyone would ever be in a position where they needed to ask the ATF.

Here's my educated guess: if you're working on a suppressor build and something gets messed up... for instance, say that you build a baffle, but as you're finishing it, the drill slips and it gets ruined. Destroy that baffle completely and start again. I can't see how that would be a problem. Your suppressor is going to be a work in progress until it's done, so as long as you don't have "extra" parts around, I can't imagine having any issues.

The old standby answer of "it really only matters if the ATF kicks down your door" sort of applies here too. That's what I meant above, when I said that probably no one has ever asked. This is a question about how the law gets enforced, and Form 1 suppressor builders are a fairly small (but growing, I suppose) group. The ATF doesn't interact with them mid-build, really.

I bet that if you asked the ATF this question, they'd have to ponder real hard and then make up an answer.

Now, I suppose there are closer questions. Let's say that you do the tube first, and thread each end. Then you make all the baffles, and finally the end caps. And as you're screwing the last end cap into place, you bugger up the threads on the tube. Can you destroy the old tube and make a new one? The answer probably depends on whether the suppressor was considered "finished" or not. I don't really know. I know that once it's made, you're not supposed to make new parts to "repair" it unless you're a Class 2 SOT. And even they can't legally make a new tube and stamp it with the old serial number, because once it's finished, the tube is the most important, registered part.

So, sorry I don't have a better, more definitive answer, but that's my thoughts on it.

Aaron

 

[USAF_Vet]

I'm actually considering designs for an aluminum monocore with a steel shroud and end caps. The aluminum monocore would resemble the Sig muzzle brake for the MPX series, but with the end caps and shroud installed, voila, registered suppressor.

The shroud would be the serialized item, in theory, and the monocore pulling double duty as either a brake (sans shroud) or suppressor (with shroud).

Again, the theory behind it would allow me to experiment with different cores/ brakes, and settle on the one that works the best, and scrap the rest that don't work.

I may be over thinking this, as I have a tendency to do, since it technically isn't a suppressor until the shroud and end caps are installed.

 

[Ryanxia]

I may be over thinking this, as I have a tendency to do, since it technically isn't a suppressor until the shroud and end caps are installed.

Baffles are considered a suppressor themselves. As you mentioned the Sig muzzle brake, remember that the ATF classified it as a suppressor even without the shroud. So I don't believe you'd be able to have one registered shroud and several baffle systems. It's like Aaron said where you can't have "extra parts" laying around.

 

[USAF_Vet]

so if it doesn't work, destroy the core and start over? That would eliminate the additional monocore. So as long as the shroud is the serialized part, and I have only one monocore that fits, I should be good?

I want to end up with one design that works. So my question in a different way is, what if I build a suppressor that doesn't work? If I scrap the baffles and start over, is my stamp still good as long as the shroud retains the serial number? As I understand it, as long as I only have the one monocore, I'm safe, whether or not it actually works is beside the point.

 

[Ryanxia]

Like Aaron said, its all about when the suppressor is considered completed. If you complete it, shoot it and want to try a different design I believe that's a no no. Of course we're speaking as if someone's watching your every move, which they're not.

 

[pdsmith505]

I would personally only be willing to approach the line of legality regarding "suppressor parts" as far as scrapping an unfinished piece that had a machining flaw during the process of manufacturing the suppressor.

Suppressors, unlike other "firearms," are interesting in that ALL of the parts are legally considered suppressors in and of themselves.

According to 18 USC 921:
(24) The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

ATF's opinion on the matter indicates that they don't give two cents whether the original parts were destroyed or not... any new parts must be built on a separate Form 1. Each baffle would require it's own $200 stamp... which means replacing the 6 freeze plugs in my Form 1 can would run $1200 in taxes alone

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, DC 20226

AUG 23 1999

901040:GS
5320/99-0115

Dear Mr. Bardwell:

This is in response to your letter of June 28, 1999, regarding the
repair of a silencer by an individual owner. You ask "whether it
is lawful for the owner of a lawfully possessed silencer ... to
repair that silencer himself, by replacing unserialized internal
components with new components of his own making." You cited the
replacement of a worn out plastic "wipe" or damaged baffle as an
example.

As you are aware, the terms "firearm silencer" and "firearm
muffler" mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing
the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of
parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling
or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part
intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication. Thus,
certain internal components, intended only for use in a silencer,
are silencers as defined.

If an individual made one of these parts, even for use as a
replacement part, the individual would be making a silencer. Under
the provisions of the National Firearms Act, any person must apply
for and receive permission to make a silencer and pay the making
tax for each silencer made. This would require the individual
owner to file an ATF Form 1 application for each silencer part to
be made with the payment of $200.00 for each application prior to
making any replacement part.

In regard to the two parts in your cited example, we consider a
baffle to be a silencer, but a wipe, which is usually nothing more
than a rubber or plastic disc with a hole in it, is generally not
considered to be a silencer. Thus an individual owner could
replace a wipe.

- 2 -

Mr. Bardwell

For the replacement of a part or parts that meet the definition of
a silencer, the individual owner would need to arrange for the
transfer of the silencer to a Federal firearms licensee who is
qualified to manufacture silencers.

If you have questions about the classification of other silencer
components, please provide us with a description of them or should
any additional information be needed, please contact Gary Schiable
at (202) 927-8330.


Sincerely yours,

[signed]
Kent M. Cousins
Chief, National Firearms Act Branch

The latest news in Sig Sauer's MPX lawsuit seems to indicate that at least one federal judge isn't buying the "It's just a REAAAAALY big muzzle brake" argument: http://www.guns.com/2015/08/19/judge-hands-atf-potential-win-over-sig-muzzle-device/

“It does appear to me that you guys (Sig and the ATF) know very well that this is a silencer part, and it does appear to me that this is not likely to have a significant market as a muzzle brake,” Barbadoro said. “So, whether that means it’s a silencer or not is an issue that the ATF should decide, but they need to do it under the correct standard, and they need to do it in a way that’s not arbitrary and capricious.”

 

[Darkbob]

Like PDSmith said above, once the can is complete we are NOT allowed to repair, change, or experiment with any of the silencer parts (monocore included). I think the sole exception is if you have spacers of varied length in your build (that you can disassemble) you can vary the locations of the spacers in an attempt to change it's performance.
As far as I know, there is a fuzzy line for the home builder with a Form 1 can regarding correcting silencer parts during fabrication. The real question may be exactly when the freeze plug or round bar stock becomes a silencer part and not just a freeze plug or a piece of stock.

The BATFE has definite rules for the SOT manufacturers regarding destroying parts that have manufacturing defects, but so far I haven't seen any actual documentation regarding a home builder doing the same thing.

This topic seems to come up on SilencerTalk.com's forums with some regularity, and I haven't actually seen it defined one way or another. I think it's most common that a home-builder just completely destroys any parts that don't turn out right. The thing is that just because it's common doesn't mean it couldn't get you into trouble.

I definitely think you should hold off on making any brake modeled after Sig's until after (if) they win. If SIG loses, make sure you have your stamped Form 1 before you make one, and you won't be able to destroy the one and start over if it doesn't work as well as you expect.

Definitely check out www.silencertalk.com though. Their silencersmithing forum has an absolute ton of info.

 

[Elkins45]

The general consensus over at Silencertalk is that you can remove material from a completed build but you can't add any.