Friend's Home Invaded - Got Kids... but No Plan

[jonathantan77]

Hi everyone. I've been a member for a long time, but I think this is my first ever thread. I'm looking for some comments on a home invasion experienced by a friend of my mum's.

First of all, this happened in Australia, so guns are not a viable solution.

Our friend's family was asleep when they were broken into by 3 young men. I think that the husband went downstairs to investigate a noise, but quickly ran upstairs again to his bedroom when he saw the intruders. Anyway, the intruders chased him upstairs and tried to open the bedroom door. Our friend's husband was holding it locked and trying to brace the door shut. The intruders appeared to be intoxicated/drugged (although we have no detailed evidence yet). The intruders pounded the door while our friends were bracing against the door, terrified. Remember, this is the BEDROOM door I'm talking about, not the front door. Eventually, the intruders ran away. Thankfully, no one was hurt.

The problem to this is that the kids were in a separate room. Now, I know that the couple could have secured their home better. They could have had a cellphone in the room, had an alarm system or kept a weapon (non firearm) handy. My question is - what to do about the kids?

Suppose the husband had a baseball bat, would it be justifiable use of force to open the door and 'come out swinging' because he needed to get to his kids' room? Secondly, is it the right thing to do?

The situation was resolved with no one getting hurt, but I can't help but feel that there's something wrong about parents hiding in a bedroom while their kids are in danger. On the other hand, I don't know how kindly the law would look on someone going out of his safe room and attacking the drunken intruders. (The intruders had not made any direct threats towards the kids. In fact, they probably did not even know there were kids in the house).

ps: Please discuss the laws of 'justifiable force' as it applies to your home area. Thanks for your input.

 

[lionken07]

I believe in Alabama you are allow to use deadly force if they break into your home. I mean you basically have no where to "run" to when they come into your bedroom:banghead: That's one of the reason why so many of use have guns with in arms reach or a few feet away from our bed.

 

[sm]

Australia

jonathantan77,

What a great first thread! Even if this occurred in Australia , we have many members all over the world that are also restricted in firearm ownership and use in the home. We have areas in the US restricting folks!

Let us take a look:

Legal definitions of force are going to vary. My idea has been to take steps to not get to the point of using lethal force. Some jurisdictions are just not friendly using force even for defense.

Allow me to address the preventative measure you mentioned would have been good. Not only for these folks, applicable to us all.

One thing to remember, whatever is done, keep mouth shut outside of family and those needing to know. One is best advised to NOT advertise to everyone they meet, because not meaning to, folks blab plans and illegal ears hear these plans.

-Exterior lighting. Including motion detector lighting front , back and dark areas to discourage folks.

-Interior lighting.
1. Emergency lighting to come on in the event power is out to due storms and attackers take advantage of power outage, or the power switch lever outside is levered to "off" by attackers.
2. Interior Lighting also includes- Timers to have lights, even a radio, or TV to come on at odd areas at different times, to give impression someone is up and stirring inside , downstairs or "other end" of house. Inside Motion detectors. Someone does gain entry and these come on, sometimes can act as a deterrent to attackers as someone , somewhere has been alerted, and perhaps Authorities are being alerted.


-Communication. Family has to communicate to the smallest person's level of understanding and comprehension.

-Ages of kids are going to come into play, same as they would for Fire , and doing home Fire Drills. Same for having a family plan for other emergencies.

-Beefing up Exterior doors as first physical layer of defense. Solid metal doors, beefed up frames, internal hinges, Professional Grade locks with longer bolt throws into jamb. This is where I suggest one visit with a Mom&Pop Locksmith as these folks are really great about ideas with quality products to fit budgets. They are also familiar with how various thugs are getting into homes, methods used, and preventative measures that do work best.

-Beefing up interior doors are a big thing one can do. Metal would be great, solid wood works. Again improving locks are a good idea.

For example, I know some that use a Dead Bolt in addition to the normal standard door knob with push button lock for a bedroom. Now for little kids, the inside turnbolt allows them to use to lock themselves in/ be locked in. Parents/ Adults have the Key that fits all these interior bedroom and safe areas with same deadbolt set up keyed the same. I mean if need a parent could lock a kid in, or unlock and be in the same room with a kid/kids.

-If the kids are bigger, adding an old fashioned "bar" that fits into U shape gives additional strength to a door being forced "in".

-Just remembered - make sure all interior doors have the hinges on the interior of room they open into. If on outside, real easy to punch out hinge ping and door is accessible no matter the type of lock or material door is made from.

-Marine horn. These are the horns that use a can of compressed air. These things are LOUD! This alerts household, neighbors if close enough, and sometimes scares away folks.

Household alerted - the practiced family plan goes into action.

That should get you started on ideas


Steve

 

[Glamdring]

I don't know that we have many people here that know much about Australia's legal code. What is true here doesn't have to apply in a different country.

Basics of what I was taught for Lethal use of force here is AOJ. Which stands for Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy. The bad guy must have the Abilty to cause death or grave bodily harm, they must have the opportunity to do so. And you must be in Jeopardy.

Example, if your on the gun range with me and I have a gun I have Ability and Opportunity to cause you death or grave bodily injury. But unless I am making threats or pointing the gun at you, your not in Jeopardy.

Does that help?

And yes home should be secured better, specifically the sleeping area.

 

[Glamdring]

Looks like SM finished his post before mine

Couple other items related to home security. Dogs if possible. Firedoors are best commonly available type of door I have found that makes good saferoom door. Having two deadbolts on the doors one above handle and one below helps a lot.

Also if pepperspray or teargas is legal, get a can that has a tube attached to it or that you can attach a tube to, then if someone is beating on your door you can slide tube under door & plug door with towel, and then flood area outside door with pepperspray.

 

[Baba Louie]

I'm not sure about Australia but I'm pretty sure that some governments, if not most, prefer you should die or call and beg one of the king's men for help if they're not too busy at the moment.

That's why they pass the laws they do. To make this a safer world... right?

Dogs.
Motion sensor lights.
Solid core wood doors (as opposed to the flimsy hollow core things they install in America). Or metal doors and frames.

Home as castle doctrine. I can and will defend any inch of it once bad guy is inside my wall line.
Disparity of force. 3 on 1 Youngsters against my 52 year old sorry butt?
Loved ones in next room worth defending or dying while protecting? I don't are what any lawmaker has said or voted in this case.

If firearms are not allowed for self defense (I still cannot for the life of me, fathom that line of thinking) I want a sharpened garden implement like a long bladed spade... which would look funny sitting in the corner of the bedroom I'll admit, but I don't need to "swing" it and have to deal with narrow hallways, doorways, low ceilings, etc. Tho a good 3 iron to the face or ribs could ruin someone's day (and I do need to practice my swing) and might have some merit in the right conditions.

Of course, as I look around me, I see that this room is full of items I can use as weapons (thrown, poked or swung) or shields and I'm sure that you have many similar things in your home. (Note to self, Buy second old used meat cleaver for home office)

 

[jonathantan77]

Thanks for all the responses!

By way of introduction, My name is Jon. I live in Australia and I'm a firearms enthusiast, even though I don't own a gun. The laws make it very hard to own a gun, but I borrow the range guns when I get a chance.

The tips on home security are very much appreciated. In fact, I will print them off for further reference. However, I think I may have mis-stated my point a little. The question was not necessarily of home security - the interior door was obviously sturdy enough, and although the exterior doors were locked, the intruders still managed to break in. They broke a window or something (can't remember), but they were not burglars and had no interest in doing it stealthily. They were rampaging drunks, not cat burglars.

No doubt a dog or alarm would have helped, but the question remains: Even with the best security measures, once intruders have broken in and were harrassing you at your bedroom door, would it be morally and strategically wise to open the door and confront them with force in order to make sure that your children were safe in the next room?

My idea has been to take steps to not get to the point of using lethal force. Some jurisdictions are just not friendly using force even for defense.

Which stands for Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy.

Aside from the differences in firearms laws, the Australian laws on self defence are very similar. That's why I value the THR opinions on the self defence mindset, even if firearms are disqualified here.

I agree with what was said above. Which is why this case baffles me. On one hand, the couple were relatively safe in their bedroom - avoiding lethal force. But the intruders were pounding on the door. Your kids are probably locked up in their own room, but you can't be sure. If you open the door to get to your kids, you'll have a fight on your hands. It's the "jeopardy" part which I don't understand. Are the kids in enough jeopardy to warrant the father stepping outside his room to "defend" the kids.

 

[WolfMansDad]

Three drunken yobs inside your home and between you and your kids? If there is a law anywhere that says you can't go and secure the safety of your family inside your own home, I'd be astonished. If such a law exists, it is a bad law and needs to be changed immediately.

As for physically securing your home, three or four large dogs would be an ideal first step. Dogs, properly socialized, are usually fiercely protective of children in their home, (their "pack" as they see it). Dogs act as a fine early warning system, and it's just healthy for kids to grow up around dogs. You don't need rottweilers or pit bulls, and in general you are better off not training them to be attack dogs. Just get big dogs and train them for basic obedience. They'll know what to do when bad guys break in.

On another note, are ALL firearms illegal in Australia, or just modern ones? Many countries don't treat muzzle-loaders as firearms. A good cap-and-ball revolver or double-barrelled shotgun (loaded with buckshot) would be a lot better than a baseball bat. These things got the job done a hundred years ago and more, and they can still do the job today. Check your local laws.

 

[Hutch]

How horrifying, being cornered in your bedroom, and needing to go out and secure the children! I fully understand how you wound up in the bedroom, trying to keep them from forcing the door open. Once you realized that the children were at risk, it was time to gather you wits, your courage, a baseball bat and sally. There's another thread on this forum about improvised home defense weapons, and I couldn't really add anything to that, but a small child's metal baseball or softball bat would be my choice. I've never seriously considered the possibility of deploying an edged weapon for defense, and I'm not sure I'd be effective with one. A baseball bat, yo, that's what I'm talkin' about.

 

[Loanshark]

That's a tough one... On one hand, you have kids in a different room that need protection. On the other if you open that door to "protect" your kids, they could become orphans. If I felt I had a good chance against 3 intruders I'd be very tempted to go for it. While I don't consider myself a wimp I don't care for 3 to 1!! If I got the impression that they were Impaired enough that I could get them on the ground before they knew what was going on, I don't know if I could stay in my room. I don't think I'd want to stay in my room.

If it happened at my house, I'd fill them with hollow point .45's without a second thought. There's no doubt in my mind of that being justified. If someone disagrees with me tomorrow or the next day and I get thrown in the pokey, at least I'll know I did the right thing.

Teach your kids to lock there doors if they hear a scuffle in the middle of the night.

 

[Loanshark]

Oh yeah, I meant to ask? How do you guys hunt down there?? Is it just certain types of guns or what?

 

[antagonist22]

This invasion is an interesting scenario because you can't actually plan for it. I don't know anyone who has a plan for home invasions and it is very difficult to plan for one because you cannot predict where the intruder may enter.

Again as said before, the age of kids also affect the outcome of this invasion.

This is what I would have done in jonathantan77 's friend's position(the husband).

If I went downstairs,my wife would also be awake, I would tell her to wake the kids up, gather them into the youngest child's bedroom while I go downstairs to check it out. And then naturally, I would go into my youngest child's bedroom because my wife had gathered them there.

This is what I would have done or have done something similar. But again,depends on age of kids,type of house,location of bedrooms,etc...

One more thing,I think its a good idea to store the emergency services number as a quick dial entry on your phone in the event you need it(home invasion, if you injury yourself,medical condition,etc...).

 

[Cosmoline]

On the reported facts: that strangers broke in, chased the owner into his own bedroom and continued to try to advance, there would be ample justification for lethal force in this state. But Australia? That's a different matter. It's my understanding they will put you away for any killing, no matter what the law of self defense says. If I could not have firearms to defend myself, I'd go with good guard dogs, crossbows and spears.

 

[silverlance]

BLACKPOWDER

excellent point about BP, and if you are allowed it, you can have a VERY nice home defense setup for a reasonable amount of money.

I for one would NOT feel terribly unarmed at all if I had a pair of Uberti steel frame cap and ball revolvers, all loaded up and ready to fire. That's 12 balls, six in each.

Here are some options that I don't think would be too hard to get (and if they are boy are you screwed)

1. A brace of cap and ball pistols
2. Revolving cap and ball carbine
3. BP shotgun, double barrel, double trigger. Get two.

4. Bolt action? M38, M44 Mosin Nagant.

5. Teen baseball bat, aluminum or wood
6. Crossbow / Compound bow (will take lots of practice

7. Wakazashi / Ninja-to (ditto practice)

8. Brass knuckles
9. Collapsible baton

10. a good dog

11. OC spray / bear spray
12. a very long monkey wrench / ball peen hammer / prybar (dont leave it lying around the house) / nail gun

 

[High Planes Drifter]

In Austrailia, Non self-loading long guns are available to citizens who are at least 18yrs. old, have no criminal record, and pass a "Shooters License test".

Tell your friend to take the test and get a side-by-side 12ga. and a whole lota buckshot for it. Also, a carbine lever gun if you can have/find that. Those and a good, large dog will go a long way in defense.

edited: Hey, look at that. Thats my .303 post, heh

 

[SSN Vet]

exploit the high ground....

three thugs comming up a normal width stair case would have a pretty hard time getting by one grown man at the top....IF.... he was motivated and determined.

36" to 40" wide stairs are only going to permit one attacker to come at you at a time.

A good kick in the face could send #1 back down on #'s 2 & 3.

Having young daughters.....home invasion is a scenario I often contemplate.

Using the stairs to my advantage is a definite part of my plan....esp. if we're all in the upstairs bedrooms. My first goal is to arm myself (gunvault under night stand) and then to get to the top of the stairs.....and I MUST get there first, or else invader could get between me and kids.

The worst scenario in my mind is a knock on the door and forced entry while we're all downstairs.....which is why I'm chosing more and more to keep my carry piece on me when I get home from work (where as I used to immediatley put it in the safe....so the kids didn't "encounter" it while rough housing with Daddy).

After reading about that pedophile monster in the northwest (Idaho???)..... who saw the little girl playing in the yard while cruising for victims, and then cased the house for three days before breaking in, killing the adults and older sibling and kidnapping the two little ones.......my thinking has changed.

 

[Glamdring]

jonathantan77

Part of the problem is the homeowner here was using bad tactics (for protecting his kids). He allowed bad guys to get between him and the kids. That was a mistake IMO. Doesn't leave any real good options.

I doubt he thought about it ahead of time so he had no plan, and simply reacted.

Home defense should consist of layers of defense, and plans (think fire drills, military calls it IAD=Immediate action drills). Some of the layers should be physical, like a wall or fence, but some can be things like good lighting on outside of the house.

If he would have planned ahead, he could have retreated to a spot that gave him some advantage but kept himself between intruders and rest of the family. Or he could have retreated behind doors that locked and got whole family out of the house or into safest room.

***
antagonist22: In my experience your wrong. It is fairly easy to figure out how someone will try to enter a building. Main points are doors and windows. If you step up to higher skill level they may try walls or ceilings/roof.

Good lighting will deter many, solid doors and locks along with either hurricane windows or strong shutters (either outside or inside shutters) will stop most. If you add fencing and good exterrior lighting with two or more large dogs no one is likely to try unless they think you have something to make it worth all the effort. Lots of easy targets out there.

 

[jonathantan77]

After reading all the suggestions, I think that the general consensus is to 1) be alerted to the danger as quickly as possible, 2) use the time to gather everyone to the safe room 3) call police 4) defend with force if necessary.

A lot of rural homeowners have guns in Australia. But for some reason, not many city folks have them. Probably the main reasons are the mandatory gun safe secured on 3 sides and the cost of guns themselves. I myself plan to get my licence once I have my own place, but even so would probably only start with a .22 pistol.

And honestly, I'd rather my garden pitchfork or machete than a .22lr in the situation described above!

 

[High Planes Drifter]

Many a man have fallen to the lowly .22LR Jonathan

 

[Headless]

10 rounds of .22lr is going to do some damage..not to mention, in a house, in the dark, nobody cares what caliber is being fired at them...it's REALLY loud, ears ringing, muzzle flashes, screaming people being hurt...i'd rather have a .22lr rifle than any of the improvised bludgeoning weapons mentioned previously. You can find 8 round .22lr revolvers that'll get the job done if that's all you can get. I wouldn't want an autoloading rimfire for SD anyway, so that they are banned is inconsequential if you do take that route.
That said, my firm opinion is that you need to get a big ass shotgun. You can always club someone with it after you've blown away his accomplice(s) if needed

 

[Cromlech]

Suppose the husband had a baseball bat, would it be justifiable use of force to open the door and 'come out swinging' because he needed to get to his kids' room? Secondly, is it the right thing to do?

It may not be very 'high road' of me (apologies to Oleg + staff), but If that was me, I'd be coming out swinging - my sword, that is. If someone loses an extremity, well, sucks to be them. My home, my castle.

Especially if I had kids.

 

[Tokugawa]

I would not go out. I would let them in , unexpectedly releasing pressure on the door. Then eliminate the threat while they are off balance, stumbling through the door.
A club or sword of some type and a can of oven cleaner (lye) will go a long way.

 

[crypticglitch]

Not tring to sound like a jerk with my frist post BUT!! if they are drunk and or on drugs more then likely no matter what they do you get the blame !???. thinking they came home and found you in there house ,doing what they thought they had to to defend themselves from you!! and pleding temporary insanity while under the influence and there mommy and daddy keep the best lawyer on the clock . yes this happened to a friend of mine right here in the USA and they went broke going to court

 

[Jhetfield]

yeah. ive actually thought about what i would do if someone broke into my house. my mom told me once, if someone breaks into your house and you attack them you better damn well kill them or ull get screwed. I figure i wouldnt lock myself inside my room. hard to say though with a 3 on 1 most likely i would grab one of the larger knives in my room and start slashing. we actually had a few years ago a guy who was breaking into houses and watching people sleep. he never got caught.... it freaked me out. i slept with a golf club next to my bed for a year. i have a small dog. hes loud and would wake me up if there was an intruder and thats all i would need. you dont necessarily need large dogs or have them trained in home defense, though nowadays you can find it for actually a pretty fair price . but the whole idea scares me of home invasion. if 3 guys broke into my house and advanced on me i would start swinging. just my opinion

 

[roscoe]

My understanding is that .22 mag is about as good as you can get without a hunter's license or being a member of a range. With a compact .22 mag lever gun, you could do some damage. I understand that pump shotguns are illegal, but you could get a lever action .410 or a double-barreled 12 gauge. Barring that, a machete or cricket bat is better than nothing.

But dogs, yes, they are going to know there is a problem before you will, and will know what to do about it.