From my College Class: Gun Rights Groups and Domestic Terrorism

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McVeigh actually intended to call in and evacuate the building - so he didn't really intend to kill anyone at all!

There's only one place that thread goes. If, as you claim, McVeigh did not intend to kill anyone, then he's guilty of some kind of manslaughter.

Where else are you going this argument?

Mike
I said I suspected that he had intended to call in a warning.

Also Felony murder doesn't require an intention to kill only the fact that the criminal action results in a death.

My words
Domestic Terrorism is a pale shadow of the actual terrorist threats this country faces. Even Timothy McVeigh had no intention of causing as many casualties as he did, it was a freak of structual design meeting an unusual blast effect that brought so much of the Murray building down. The blast wave raised the upper levels of the structure kicked out supports then slammed it back down. McVeigh apparently didn't even know about the daycare center in the building.
Also despite being labeled a "Christian Terrorist" McVeigh was an Agnostic and a lapsed Catholic.
It doesn't matter if he meant to cause one casualty or five hundred, he'd still be guilty of felony murder on all counts.
By "as many casualties as he did" I'd have assumed you'd recognize that I'd meant he was targeting the federal agents and possibly federal office employees rather than just whoever happened to be visiting that day, or their children.

McVeigh didn't know about the daycare center - so he didn't intend to kill any kids
According to the earliest information indicating that McVeigh had admitted any guilt, he had told a cellmate that he did not know of the presence of the Daycare center. I was a bit suprized that they would have a daycare center in a Federal Building, I doubt it was common knowledge.

You contradict your claim about my meaning..
McVeigh didn't intend to kill as many people as he killed - the "extra" deaths were really due to the building's structural defects.

If, as you claim, McVeigh did not intend to kill anyone,

You mistake a suspicion and a speculation for a claim of fact.

My words.
I've suspected that he'd intended to phone in a warning or let the bomb be discovered and the building evacuated, but it went off too soon for some reason. Thats just my speculation, based on available evidence.

Had the Murray building not collapsed due to a now recognized design flaw the casualties would have been only a fraction of what they were.
I suggest you look up the studies on this building collapse.
 
Had the Murray building not collapsed due to a now recognized design flaw the casualties would have been only a fraction of what they were.

Why does that make any difference?

I've suspected that he'd intended to phone in a warning or let the bomb be discovered and the building evacuated, but it went off too soon for some reason. Thats just my speculation, based on available evidence.

You mistake a suspicion and a speculation for a claim of fact.

What's the point of your speculation?

Mike
 
That video is no big deal at all. Various gangs around the country (and the world) are doing the exact same thing that the 'hate' groups are doing; training and using weapons. The video is more likely a hogwash of bad editing cuts (such as many history channel things do) than anything really intentional...and even if we were to speculate that it had a driven 'agenda' to portray all gun owners as bad guys it's easy to see it's crap. I wouldn't think much of it.
 
So McVeigh only intended to kill a few LEOs, so that's hunky dory? Or McVeigh never really intended to kill anyone, so oopsy, so sorry about those 180+ people I put a gigantic bomb next to? What the heck? Personally I think that is all nonsense-McVeigh intended to kill a lot of people (he made some sort of comment that innocents would have to die, IIRC)

I think this thread illustrates, sadly, that the professor was right-there is a fringe element of the gun community that flirts with terrorism and has to be watched. I hate to have all gun owners lumped in with them but that is the way it goes-now I know what Muslims feel like when AQ does something horrific.
 
I think this thread illustrates, sadly
Is that one poster can totally miss the point of another member's post then compound the error over several other posts, then someone drops in towards the end and apparently doesn't get it either.

As I said Domestic Terrorism is a pale shadow compared to the Terrorists threats we face today.
At no point did I imply that.
So McVeigh only intended to kill a few LEOs, so that's hunky dory?

I suspect that McVeigh had not intended a mass casualty situation for several reasons.
If you want to kill large numbers of people that work at a certain building with a bomb placed outside the building, you would set it to go off when they were arriving at work or leaving work or going to lunch, When the parking area is full, not when those same people would be inside a substantial building protected by walls and a good distance from the explosion.

McVeigh knew explosives but neither he, nor the people who designed the Murrah building for that matter, could have predicted the building's collapse from a bomb of that size placed at that distance from the building.
Amonium Nitrate bombs do not have the Brisance to produce damage on that order unless the building design is flawed.
Over pressure raised the upper floors a foot or so and kicked back the supports.
This is why there was so much speculation about the type of explosive and endless conspiracy theories claiming the "Gumint had blowed up the building theyselves".

Theres nothing "Hunky Dory" about killing anyone, whether an intended target or a janitor halfway across the building.

And I would have thought any adult in the United States would have heard of the legal concept of "Felony Murder" by now.

Jihadist rountinely target school children and behead even the infants of their enemies. Had a Jidahi bombed the Murrah building he'd have driven the truck through the lobby.
So "domestic terrorism" is only a fraction of the threat of Islamic Terrorism.
Islamic terrorists killed more Americans on 911 than "Domestic Terrorism" ,excluding lynchings, killed during the entire 20th century.
 
Back in the old days college level courses featured rather more than a dinglehead pushing "PLAY" on the DVD player and going for a smoke break.

But certainly to the extent any gun rights groups are tied with white power clowns and assorted nogoodnicks, it reflects poorly on the membership and all gun owners. This is one reason I don't join very many of them. Hopefully if Heller goes our way we won't need them nearly as much.
 
I am not missing the point of your posts. I am not sure whether this is your conscious intent, I concede that, but you seem to be bent on mitigating the evil of McVeigh's actions. And I am very skeptical about some of your facts.

He only intended to kill a "few" federal officers, the building was flawed and killed more than he intended (it was an enormous bomb parked right next to the building). If he wanted to kill more he would have driven the truck in the building (it had a five minute fuse-seems more like he wanted to get away to me). He really only intended to warn people (well why didn't he, then?) If he wanted to kill more he would chosen different times (so why didn't he do it at at 2:00 AM, say? With a 10 pound bomb?) McVeigh's own statements of culpability on his actions are bragging (He actually made statements indicating he accepted non-combatants, from his point of view, were going to die). Anyway, the September 11 attackers killed many more, so that McVeighs actions are...less important somehow? Islamic terrorist do worse things so what he did is less evil?

I understand the concept of felony murder. It makes him less evil. Doesn't apply here does it? A man, who hates the government, drives an enormous bomb up next to a Federal building, sets it off at 9:00 AM without any warning whatsoever, and kills 168 people. Second worst terror incident since WWII, probably the second worse case of mass murder since WWII. Sounds like straightforward case of mass murder to me.
 
Are you claiming that you have seen local news present Ducks Unlimited as a Jihadi training camp?

I have never seen that. The local news is not overburdened with competence , but I have never seen them present local hunters as jihadists.

Have you really seen them do that? Can you supply a citation of some kind for this claim? That would be pretty outrageous.

Mike

Sorry... No, that's not really a story I've seen. It's based on my personal bitterness stemming from a real local news story involving Colt and Glock. The point I was trying to make is that the media typically is lazy enough to report on a natural gas explosion and use stock footage from the chilli cook off to do it, and it's the same only more so when gun related. I'm thinking of a particular time when the local news did a segment on Colt SAA's and CT's industrial heritage at a range near me, and aired 30 seconds of the Colt collector and five minutes of the guy three lanes down running a Glock.

As for your attempt to rebut my statement about police becoming outnumbered, what happened to the LA police during the Rodney King riots?

Do you believe everyone should have access to the same firearms the police do?

My point there is that firearms are much more important for the private citizen than they are for police officers. While we can wear vests and carry shotguns or "patrol rifle" equivalents in the trunk, we typically can't call for backup from guys wearing vests with shotguns and patrol rifles in the trunk.

The police may be outnumbered temporarily, but the whole idea is that that won't last. L.A. is not exactly known for the degree of public support for it's police department, in fact, it's probably pretty close to one end of an extreme. It's worth thinking about where the other end of that extreme is, and balancing it out a little.
 
I am not sure whether this is your conscious intent, I concede that, but you seem to be bent on mitigating the evil of McVeigh's actions. And I am very skeptical about some of your facts.
I think the problem comes from venue. Your remarks show me that you have been listening to too many public defenders and bleeding hearts who do try to justify the actions of people like McVeigh. When you see someone express doubt about the commonly accepted storyline you assume that they are somehow defending the perp.
Example of your way of thinking
I understand the concept of felony murder. It makes him less evil.
Just how do you think that the Legal concept of Felony Murder somehow makes either the act or the perpetrator "Less Evil"?
You hang for a Felony Murder just as easily as for a premeditated murder for good reason, that would be the perp's "Depraved Indifference for Human Life".
McVeigh not knowing the Child Day care center was in the building does nothing to mitigate the crime of murder , either the murders of the children or the murders of adults he knew to be in the building or likely to be within range of the blast.

The point you are missing is that the intended criminal act is not more or less evil depending on the number of proposed victims vs the number of actual victims, but that this worst act of "Domestic Terrorism" pales in comparasion to those commited by Jihadist Terrorist on practically a daily basis throughout the world, claiming not one hundred or two hundred in a single act but tens of thousands in multiple acts without discrimination or clear cut objectives in mind.

so that McVeighs actions are...less important somehow?
Do you somehow consider the actions of a man now long dead to be as important as those committed on a daily basis today? Mc Veigh isn't likely to be planting anymore bombs now is he.
When was the most recent "domestic terrorist" Bombing you can remember?
How many airliners have been hijacked by "Domestic Terrorists"?
How Many Airliners have been blown out of the Sky by "Domestic Terrorists"?
Which is more dangerous, a dead wolf or a pack of living Rabid dogs?

As I said Domestic terrorism pales beside the threat of Jihadist terrorism.
On the one hand you have small practically insignificant groups of wackos with rare incidents of murderous violence and crnimal activities, on the other you have entire populations whose government meetings end with a prayer for the death of the United states which they call "the Great Satan".

Oklahoma City was not the defining act of this society, it was an aberation.

And I can maintain my suspicions about McVeighs true intentions, mainly because I don't see him as some sort of criminal mastermind. He was a delusional mentally unbalanced A-hole who's high opinion of himself could not handle the possibility that things did not go as he had planned.
When people like that are caught so easily they shift into the mode of "I meant to do that" like a cat that realizes you saw it fall off the table.

Look into the properties of Ammonia Based explosives and youll realize just why no one , not even an engineer or the architect of the building,could have planned on destroying the Murrah Building with a truck bomb of that size parked at that distance from the structure. And just why explosive experts who did not understand the design flaw which resulted in the building coming down believed that a Bomb had been placed inside the structure or that a secondary explosion of explosives illegally stored there as evidence had actually done the damage.

If a guy intends to commit a crime at a certain level and his actions result in many times the expected damage and loss of life he is no less guilty. Probably the persons most shocked by the extent of the damage to the building were those that built the bomb.

Compare the level of destruction of the Murrah building to the relatively light damage done to Khobar Towers. The Khobar Towers bomb was 20,000 pounds of TNT, the Oklahoma bomb was about 4,000 pounds of ANFO which has .44% the power of TNT pound for pound and a much lower Brisance.
If you compare the levels of destruction you'll begin to understand why its highly unlikely that McVeigh would have expected his bomb to cause even one tenth the casualties and destruction that it did.

About thirty five years ago a building I'd been working on a few days earlier collapsed when the brake gave out while they were hoisting a tub of concrete to the roof. I'd been on the crew that manhandled these tubs into position to pour the cells from the top down. The tub went through the roof and the as yet unbraced structure folded in on itself like a house of cards killing all of my crew.
If I had not left the job a few days earlier due to a family emergency I'd have been ground to hamburger along with by friends. They were a great bunch of guys.
The exact same thing happened to a building built on the same design not long afterwards, this time the cable snaped. I haven't worked construction since then.
 
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Folks, I'm afraid that this is what the future members of law enforcement are being taught about guns and gun-owners.

Thats a huge reason why its important to go out and train, but you shouldnt just polish your skills as a shooter, you need to spread a positive image of gun owners. If you make a good impression on enough people, they will spread that impression and it will educate a lot of people.

We all know elements of our government have been trying to strip us of our RKBA, probably since before my father was born almost 60 years ago. At some point, whether it will be sooner or later, they will grant themselves the "legal" (not lawful) clearance to take away our guns. Whether it will be swat teams or UN troops going door to door, its going to happen.
 
Roswell 1847, you are, for some reason beyond me, trying to mitigate the evil of McVeigh's actions. Felony murder is a mitigation, in felony murder the criminal was not directly involved in the murder. He drove the getaway car, or pointed the gun at the clerk and the clerk had a heart attack.

You say that Islamic terrorism is a much greater threat than domestic terrorism? Agreed.

You say McVeigh was an abberation? Agreed as well.

You keep saying he didn't really want to kill anybody/or that many people. That he screwed up somehow, and accidentally killed people. Hence guilty of felony murder. Nonsense. Along with your bomb facts, which sound like conspiracy stuff to me. Khobar towers was at a much greater distance and with different barriers in place.

McVeigh built a 4,000 pund (your words, I have seen more) bomb, parked it next to Federal Bulding at 9:00 AM when there would be plenty of people there, and set it off without warning, expecting to murder a lot of people. I don't really believe your theory above he was a construction genius who "only" intended to kill one tenth the people he did, but if so, so what? From his viewpoint, an unexpected success.

The people that he killed were murdered by him, plain and simple. Heck, they only bothered convicting him on eleven counts of murder.

I guess I have had my say, here, and we have wandered far from guns. I'll bow out.
 
How to Hang?

You hang for a Felony Murder just as easily as for a premeditated murder for good reason, that would be the perp's "Depraved Indifference for Human Life".
Yes.

But they use a different kind of rope.

For really evil people, they use hemp. For those only mildly evil, nylon is preferred. For your average evil perp, jute is the proper thing.

It's all in the execution.

* * *

Now, where were we?

Oh, yeah, gun rights and terrorism.

Terrorism? Check!

Gun rights? Uh, . . . oh, yeah, we were talking about gun rights.

Sorry, got distracted with the whole philosophy of evil thing.
 
Roswell 1847, you are, for some reason beyond me, trying to mitigate the evil of McVeigh's actions. Felony murder is a mitigation, in felony murder the criminal was not directly involved in the murder. He drove the getaway car, or pointed the gun at the clerk and the clerk had a heart attack.
Drew you have no idea what the term Felony Murder means. The fact that the death occurred as a result of a criminal activity is what prevents the jury from considering any lack of murderous intent on the part of the perpetrator.
The fellow who drove the car is just as much a murderer as the guy who pulls the trigger, both swing unless one rolls.
If the accomplice of an armed robber is killed by police or a prospective victim, the surviving robber can be charged with murder in the death of his accomplice.
Now stop playing dumb and misrepresenting my position on this issue. Crack a book.
 
And . . . we're done.

Startin' to get a little personal there, fellas.

Y'all are new here, so I'll direct you to the forum rules.

With emphasis on the part about attacking the argument not the arguer.

Y'all take care now.
 
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