From my College Class: Gun Rights Groups and Domestic Terrorism

[RPCVYemen]

and mentioning that the President of Gun Owners of America, Larry Pratt, was a speaker at a "Christian Identity/Neo-Nazi Gathering" held soon after the Ruby Ridge incident

Did Larry Pratt in fact speak at a Christian Identity/Neo-Nazi gathering?

Mike

 

[Tommygunn]

Quote:
he attended a couple of Montan militia meets
Tommygunn, he attended a couple of Michigan Militia meetings. Big difference between Montana and Michigan.

Only geographically, not in the point I was making .....

 

[RPCVYemen]

Here's what the New York Daily News said when Buchanan fired Larry Pratt for speaking at a meeting organized by the founder of Christian Identity:

The Center for Public Integrity, a Washington-based public interest group, revealed that Pratt worked "with leaders of the Aryan Nations" and introduced "the concept of militias to the right-wing underground." In particular the center pointed to a speech about organizing militias that Pratt delivered to a 1992 meeting held in Estes Park, Colo., that was organized by Peter Peters, the leader of Christian Identity "a movement that supports violence to promote white supremacy."

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/1996/02/16/1996-02-16_buchanan_fires_backer_over_m.html

So it does look as though the History Channel's statements about Mr. Pratt are indeed factual.

Mike

 

[Liko81]

Let him know that it's possible that such information is actually disinformation, it's own type of hate speech, very elitist, very much against a cultural and religious group, and that it is unrelated to terrorism

...Uh, BS. Christian Identity is a religious group the same way the Hell's Angels are a security firm. Look them up on Wikipedia and you'll find that they are in fact a hate group. They're a lot like those whackjobs in Al Qaida that use religion to justify oppression.

It should be made clear that "Christian Identity" has nothing to do with the Religion of Christianity, except to hijack the term Christian.

...

"Christian Identity" is based on the rantings of the "British Israelite" movement, which again is neither British nor Israeli in any way shape or form.
Wackjobs like these and Fred Phelps' gang of hate mongers are a calculated design aimed at driving young people away from the true teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

The problem with the whole thing is not that the hate groups are smeared as nutjobs, but that the program implied that every gun owner/collector either is now or will eventually be part of a hate group. The show may not have explicitly done that; it may simply have tried to instill fear that these radical elements of society have access to that many guns. However, it works in reverse; human psychology creates an association between such things that is a two way street in the absence of, and sometimes despite, information that encourages a one-way connection. "If nutjobs have guns, gun owners are nutjobs". Very simple, but utterly false, yet the media perpetuates it all the time.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Heres the FBI Megiddo Project file.
http://www.cesnur.org/testi/FBI_004.htm

Domestic Terrorism is a pale shadow of the actual terrorist threats this country faces. Even Timothy McVeigh had no intention of causing as many casualties as he did, it was a freak of structual design meeting an unusual blast effect that brought so much of the Murray building down. The blast wave raised the upper levels of the structure kicked out supports then slammed it back down. McVeigh apparently didn't even know about the daycare center in the building.
Also despite being labeled a "Christian Terrorist" McVeigh was an Agnostic and a lapsed Catholic.

 

[Soybomb]

Folks, I'm afraid that this is what the future members of law enforcement are being taught about guns and gun-owners.

Larry Pratt and GOA do have strong christian ties and I would say have put out some pretty offensive material for their beliefs. The video sounds like like it was trying to be a little sensationalist but as gun owners we have to be careful who we associate with our cause. If you try to make the GOA a champion of the cause, you're going to take the good with the bad.

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

well,
I admit to learning something about the christian identity movement and had no idea it was an organization. anyone who does in fact use hate speech or racial superiority as a motivation for their cause is in no way related to what I was arguing for. I was, as is evident in my earlier post (#2) expressing dissatisfaction for what I often encounter, and that is the idea that someone who is a Christian, and a Patriot, and who loves his rifles, is somehow a terrorist, or anything related. It seems to me that if anyone would call a lover of his country a terrorist then they, in fact, are much more so with a lot more money and propoganda on their side.
Regardless of what the christian identity movement is, or Pratt, or whoever, other students are likely uneducated on it as I was, and there should be a distinction, and a countering argument that supports men and women who are country folk, christian, shooters, and would catch your back anytime, and would never engage in political violence against their own country or go out seeking to terrorize or in any way assault others. THAT, is disinformation, and it IS sewn in to the context of the fringe often to continue the course of the need to control arms. I imagine most of you recognize that.

thanks for the good info,

st

 

[RPCVYemen]

Larry Pratt and GOA do have strong christian ties and I would say have put out some pretty offensive material for their beliefs.

I'd like to be very clear about the distinction between Christian and Christian Identity/Nazi.

Unfortunately as I poked around the GOA site, I found more and more racial/Christian Identity stuff than I had thought I would find.

For example GOA has a link to a Mark Dankof, a pretty anti-Semtiic site that includes an assertion that Israeli secret officers, disguided as movers, celebrated in front of he burning World Trade Center. Dankof claims that the Republican party had sold itself to the manifestly demonic - due to a Jewish conspiracy that has caused Protestant Evangelism to become malignant in the US:

I had concluded that the moral and intellectual prostitution of continuing with a political party that had sold itself to the manifestly demonic was simply unsustainable any longer. I underscored this point by telling him exactly what I thought of the malignant contemporary state of Protestant Evangelicalism in the land, and the compromised character of much of its public leadership.My final contribution to the political end of that last exchange with Brown was perhaps the most painful for both of us. It was apparent to me, I said, that the real Rosetta Stone in uncovering the character of the malaise in the entire country, was in identifying the spiritual, logistical, and financial force driving the United States to a day of reckoning in the final days of the American Republic. The Core of the Stone is the alliance of the Jewish Lobby with our most basic and trusted institutions.

GOA also has links to a site African Crisis that includes reference (without comment by the editor) to a South African government officials as primitive apemen.

I didnt ask LaGriffe to speculate any higher than 130 because I instinctively realised that 60 IQ points above the mean would be the upper black limit. There probably are a tiny handful above 135 but I very much doubt any of them are in the Azanian guvmunt. They would be far too smart for to associate themselves with those primitive apemen..!!

GOA does not appear to have distanced itself very far from the Christian Identity groups - at least as far as hating blacks and Jews.

I assume that my friends who are members of GOA/and or respect GOA have probably never clicked on those links. I do not think the GOA is racist or anti-Semitic. It seemed to me to be a tougher NRA, and I am sure that's why my friends joined.

As a Jewish gun owner, it it disturbing to so often find a link between gun rights groups and racism or anti-Semitism.

Mike

 

[skarpenz]

History Channel is owned by NBC. 'Nuff said. Almost all colleges now spew anti-gun, anti-conservative bullsh*t these days. I'm used to it by now, as much as it pains me to know children, teens, and young adults are being taught this way.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Even Timothy McVeigh had no intention of causing as many casualties as he did, it was a freak of structual design meeting an unusual blast effect that brought so much of the Murray building down.

Let me get this straight, McVeigh was innocent - the deaths were really do to a freak of structural design. He didn't intend for all of those people to die, so his actions were acceptable. Exactly how many people did McVeigh expect to kill?

Mike

 

[Waitone]

The previous administration targeted various "hate groups" and so-called militias for federal attention and future actions. It was because of an unpleasant event in Waco, TX that caused them to stand down. Make no bones about it, the federales consider militia groups to be threat to internal security (don't I sound like the proper Nazi).

 

[Caimlas]

Heh, looks like you went and did almost the exact same thing I did - hopefully not to similar results (I got a C, largely because all the exams wer emultiple choice and not essay, and because I had a difficult time differentiating between "wrong" answers and "incorrect" answers on said exams).

This kind of stuff is pretty par for the course of "introductory" topics in CJ, it would seem. The Christian Identity, Patriot Movement, etc. were all covered in the same tone as AQ and the various other Muslim terrorist groups, while socialist agitators were treated with kid gloves. It's par for the course, and you should hardly be surprised if you've been paying any attention.

Folks, I'm afraid that this is what the future members of law enforcement are being taught about guns and gun-owners.

The future of law enforcement? You apparently have not been paying attention: the ATF is still out there, mainly targeting the legal firearm owners and dealers. The FBI and various other federal law enforcement continue to call a horse a horse, instead publicly dismissing any ties between certain acts of domestic violence and terrorist ties (except when politically advantageous). There are dozens of heavily armed compounds within the US full of Islamic radicals, and yet the federal (and local) authorities won't even touch the issue.

Unfortunately, Law enforcement has been strongly infused with leftist agenda. A person who has studied current events, past terrorist behaviors and groups, and dedicated a large amount of time in the matter of understanding what makes them tick will be hard pressed to pass an entry-level CJ course on terrorism (I got a C, which is the lowest grade I've ever gotten).

 

[ROMAK IV]

You have to remember, members of "hate groups" have 1st and 2nd Amendment rights until they commit crimes and are convicted. Randy Weaver was a "separatist", and a former Marine who was a threat to no one. The Branch Davidians stayed to themselves, and Dabid Koresh could have been arrested without a commando style raid. Timothy McVeigh used the Waco siege as an excuse, but he wasn't tied to the militia movement nor supposed radical Christian groups. The Michigan Milita is not a hate group, although ABC News implied that they were. Having formal education of LEO, include an "Us v. Them" indocrination will only end up hurting the future LEO's.

If you examine antigun propaganda, much of it consists od the demonization of gun owners, and it doesn't matter in the slightest if any of it is true. IF there is a big danger from acts of terrorism from White Supremeist groups and militant Christian organizations, where is it? Does the NRA give guns to kids? Is it a part of the KKK, like Michael Moore implied in "Bowling for Columbine?" That part of Moore's movie were shown on "Oprah" with Oprah nodding in approval.

So what do you expect me to do? Resign from the NRA because Wayne LaPierre used the term "Jack booted thugs" to describe members of the ATF? Am I suppose to shun the JFPO because they promote gun ownership and markmanship to avoid tyranny?

 

[Soybomb]

GOA does not appear to have distanced itself very far from the Christian Identity groups - at least as far as hating blacks and Jews.

I assume that my friends who are members of GOA/and or respect GOA have probably never clicked on those links. I do not think the GOA is racist or anti-Semitic. It seemed to me to be a tougher NRA, and I am sure that's why my friends joined.

As a Jewish gun owner, it it disturbing to so often find a link between gun rights groups and racism or anti-Semitism.

Don't forget gay bashers http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3343514#post3343514

I had the same thing initially, I heard about GOA and thought "wow they sound great." Upon investigation I found all this stuff like you're finding. Sadly they decided they needed to do more than just guns. I've not been able to find anything like this from JPFO yet, they seem ideologically quite pure.

 

[macadore]

A lot of LEOs don’t like the Constitution because it gets in their way. That is its purpose.
Who polices the police? Other police? That’s like lawyers suing other lawyers. It will never happen.

As long as the people have the right to keep and bear arms, the police have limited power because they can easily become outnumbered if they get out of line. They don’t like that, and that is why many of them don’t think anyone should have firearms but them. I don’t think anyone should have a firearm but me, but I don’t expect anyone else to agree.

 

[macadore]

"Even Timothy McVeigh had no intention of causing as many casualties as he did, it was a freak of structual design meeting an unusual blast effect that brought so much of the Murray building down."

I don't know where you get this information, but McVeigh told defense investigators that he bombed the Murrah Building at the time of day he did to "increase the body count."
If he did not want casualties he would have done it at midnight instead of 9:00 a.m.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/mcveighaccount.html

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/march97/mcveigh_3-3a.html

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/04/05/mcveigh.book/

http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.5624/content.content_view.htm

http://www.courttv.com/news/mcveigh_special/0612_noremorse_ap.html

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=202

 

[Logan5]

A lot of LEOs don’t like the Constitution because it gets in their way. That is its purpose. Who polices the police? Other police? That’s like lawyers suing other lawyers. It will never happen.

I see you don't know lawyers, my friend. That is a hot growth area, and big money is being made, although it's much more technical nowadays. Lots more "you failed to cite the correct opinion on page 12" and less "you spent the whole trial coked up and twitching under the bench", not that that's entirely out, but it's been done.

I spent some time in criminal prosecution. No one had the idea that the Constitution was getting in the way. Juries can be stupid, Judges can be thick, and defense attorneys can cost a billion bucks, but your real bad guys will always get into trouble and show back up again.

As long as the people have the right to keep and bear arms, the police have limited power because they can easily become outnumbered if they get out of line. They don’t like that, and that is why many of them don’t think anyone should have firearms but them.

Not so much. I'm not in constant radio contact with a dispatcher who keeps tabs on me and my however many closest armed and armored co-workers, ready to bail me out as fast as possible. Once you shoot at a police officer, you might as well have shot at all of them. From personal experience, I'll go out on a limb and say that I have never seen the same level of support from other slightly overweight gun collectors with pregnant wives due in December, even though we're a really tight group.

Besides the creepy GOA stuff, which scares me, the problem I see is that indeed, when your local TV affiliate wants to do a story about terrorism, they'll go film the local Ducks Unlimited guys all Cabella'd out and patterning their shotguns and loop the tape like it's some Jihadi training camp. These clowns are our friends and neighbors, and they're willing to smear us because they don't know us, or probably anyone in their "community", and it seems expedient to them.

 

[jefnvk]

they'll go film the local Ducks Unlimited guys all Cabella'd out and patterning their shotguns and loop the tape like it's some Jihadi training camp. These clowns are our friends and neighbors, and they're willing to smear us because they don't know us, or probably anyone in their "community", and it seems expedient to them.

Maybe the reason is infighting. People sit here and complain all day about how the hunting clubs are going to get all guns taken away, except for teh lowly hunting guns, while at the same time the hunting groups are complaining that the EBR guys are gonna get all guns banned because of what they like.

Maybe if ALL groups sat down and started cooperating, instead of looking out for only themselves, things would be much better off. I, as a hunter and evil member of DU, wouldn't be too inclined to help someone whose first reaction was "Oh, DU. The second amendment isn't about hunting, you know, you guys are going to ruin it for all of us.". And yes, I have gotten that before.

People like to complain a lot, but if you take a look at the real issues they are complaining about, they ofter fit their own description perfectly.

 

[RPCVYemen]

The more I look at the GOA links, the creepier it gets. Here's a bit from an "American Friends Patriot Network" on Timothy McVeigh, making him out to be a hero, and justifies his attack:

When he returned to civilian life after his army discharge, he again found himself confronted by the enemy. The war had begun at Ruby Ridge and continued with devastating fury at Waco and his government had trained him well - in how to conduct himself in a state of war.

But if he indeed took up arms to fight the enemy now, in place of honor, he suddenly became a terrorist. The President was calling for the death penalty for this domestic terrorist.

If McVeigh indeed was involved in this bombing for the reason the U.S. has stated, how then could this ever be considered murder? It would have to be considered war, or at the very least revolutionary attacks. A recent letter to the editor in a news magazine makes a forceful point. "If the Oklahoma City bombing were indeed the result of frustration with, and reprisal for the unconstitutional excesses of government exemplified by the Waco massacre, then blame for this act of terrorism would be directly traceable to the door of those trusted public servants who thumbed their noses at the rights of the people."

http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/war/oklahoma6-97.html

I wonder how many people who joined GOA as a hardcore gun right organization understand the groups with which GOA chooses to be associated? Not the folks I know - to a man, they joined GOA because they thought the NRA was too wimpy. Not one of them would call Timothy McVeigh a hero!

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

Besides the creepy GOA stuff, which scares me, the problem I see is that indeed, when your local TV affiliate wants to do a story about terrorism, they'll go film the local Ducks Unlimited guys all Cabella'd out and patterning their shotguns and loop the tape like it's some Jihadi training camp.

Are you claiming that you have seen local news present Ducks Unlimited as a Jihadi training camp?

I have never seen that. The local news is not overburdened with competence , but I have never seen them present local hunters as jihadists.

Have you really seen them do that? Can you supply a citation of some kind for this claim? That would be pretty outrageous.

Mike

 

[macadore]

Logan5

I don’t know what your comment about lawyers was supposed to mean, but I know lawyers quite well. Do they ever sue each other?

As for your attempt to rebut my statement about police becoming outnumbered, what happened to the LA police during the Rodney King riots?

Do you believe everyone should have access to the same firearms the police do?

 

[Roswell 1847]

RPCVYemen wrote

Let me get this straight, McVeigh was innocent

How you'd get that from what I posted is beyond me.

Mc Veigh was a nutcase but unlikely to have intended the deaths of any children. He knew a great deal less about his intended target than he thought he did.
I can see him hoping to waste a few LEO but not children, it doesn't suit his profile.
In fact it took a lot of research by engineers and demolition experts to determine just why his bomb caused as much damage to the Murray building as it did.
I've suspected that he'd intended to phone in a warning or let the bomb be discovered and the building evacuated, but it went off too soon for some reason. Thats just my speculation, based on available evidence.
While I have no problem with the death penalty in his case, it would have served better to let him live long enough to get some more conclusive information on this incident.

The Oklahoma City Bombing was an aberation. Domestic terrorists and criminal bombings seldom are geared towards mass casualties. Generally mass casualties of this magnitude in the US are mass suicide pacts.
Even "Mad Bomber Metesky" chose to avoid causing casualties, and only one person was seriously injured by his bombs.
The Unibomber , while having murderous intent, set his bombs to catch only one victim at a time.
US bombers generally attack structures rather than people. When they cause indiscriminate casualties its discredits their "cause" whatever that might be.

don't know where you get this information, but McVeigh told defense investigators that he bombed the Murrah Building at the time of day he did to "increase the body count."
If he did not want casualties he would have done it at midnight instead of 9:00 a.m.

From a cellmate informer. McVeigh was putting up a front with the investigators, he'd admitted privately that he had no idea that there was a Daycare center in the Murray Building.


Remember McVeigh's statement in court
"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of Circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of Chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."

Like I said he was a nutcase. He wanted to go out with the rep of a stone killer rather than as a screw up.

If you want to learn more about the structural deficiencies that lead to the building's ususual collapse pattern I can probably dig the information up for you. The computer simulations tell the story pretty well.
My Architectual design classes were geared towards homes and other wooden frame structures, not modern office buildings, but I know enough about the stresses involved to grasp the explanations easily enough.

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

Remember McVeigh's statement in court
"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of Circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of Chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."

just remember that's not a McVeigh original, it's an outstanding poem that every young man should learn, "Invictus" by William Ernest Henley (1849-1903). Invictus is latin for unconquerable. While McV may be a nut, indeed, the poem is awesome. Our country needs more of such men as in the poem, and don't thik all rednecks running around in camo are fat

I have disdain for men who have sacrificed their health, and responsibility toward their family and community and country for laziness and comfort.

st


ps - also, and this is not a defense of a murderer, there is such thing as the effective war in public opinion, the minds of the people. Therefore, standard doctrine, there is always a motivation to paint one's enemy as cruel, insane, evil, ever aggressing, oppressive, terrorizing. . . one must be cautious and skeptical if one is to reach accurate estimations of events based on available data from multiple sources. Some of the greatest 'men' in history are simply the best story tellers.

 

[RPCVYemen]

How you'd get that from what I posted is beyond me.

OK. Is this a fair statement of the progression of your comments?

1. McVeigh didn't intend to kill as many people as he killed - the "extra" deaths were really due to the building's structural defects.
2. McVeigh didn't know about the daycare center - so he didn't intend to kill any kids.
3. McVeigh actually intended to call in and evacuate the building - so he didn't really intend to kill anyone at all!

There's only one place that thread goes. If, as you claim, McVeigh did not intend to kill anyone, then he's guilty of some kind of manslaughter.

Where else are you going this argument?

Mike

 

[bogie]

I wonder which had the most influence on McVeigh... His hitch in the Army, a couple of Michigan Militia meetings, or a weekend at Knob Creek... I'm guessing the Army myself...

The FBI _really_ wants for there to be a bunch of "homegrown" terrorists. This validates their activity at Waco and Ruby Ridge. In addition, since their mandate his within the United States, it gives them something to do. Remember - the outfit is a bureaucracy with guns. It wants power, and budget. And power.