Front Sight v. Blackwater

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

damien

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
1,212
Location
Northern IL, USA
I know from searching threads a few people here have done Front Sight. Has anyone done Blackwater? Blackwater has a facility in Illinois:

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/bwnorth.asp

I am sure most have heard of Front Sight:

http://www.frontsight.com/

Anybody know enough to compare and contrast them? Blackwater, for having the hard-core reputation that they have, is a relative bargain - $1000 for a 5-day course. Front Sight is $2500 for a 5-day course, plus, in my case, plane fair and lodging. All shorter and longer courses are about the same difference in price, relatively speaking.

Anyone know anything?
 
both are well known entity's but id wait a little while before sending blackwater a check :p
 
Somehow, I have this tiny idea in the back of my head that IF I were involved in a self-defense shooting, and IF it went to a grand jury (or a civil lawsuit), that having to testify in court that I was trained by the same cowboys who were in the news for shooting up Iraqi civilians might not be the best possible defense posture to be in.

I think I'd look at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, or any of several other training facilities before I would even consider either Blackwater or Front Site.
 
Somehow, I have this tiny idea in the back of my head that IF I were involved in a self-defense shooting, and IF it went to a grand jury (or a civil lawsuit), that having to testify in court that I was trained by the same cowboys who were in the news for shooting up Iraqi civilians might not be the best possible defense posture to be in.
Click to expand...

Good point. Ok, register under a pseudonym and pay in cash... :evil:
 
What Aguila said. I don't care how comprehensive the training is, no way in HELL I'd ever give Blackwater a dime after what those yahoos did.

That being said - I've seen a few videos by Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch, and if I had the money he'd be the one I'd be signing up with for classes. Just my personal opinion, but I like his teaching style. Straightforward, thorough, and blessedly lacking the sort of "I'm an uber-tactical badass operator" attitude some instructors seem to have.
 
OK, looking at tuition schedules:

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/cost.html
http://www.gunsite.net/info/tuition.html
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/bwnorth.asp
http://www.frontsight.com/Schedule.asp?View=List

Thunder Ranch: $880.00 for three-day courses.
Gunsite: 3 day courses, $862 - $995, 5-day courses $1320-$1657
Blackwater: 3-Day Basic Pistol $775, 3-Day Shotgun $995, 5-day courses $995
Front Site: 2-day $1000, 5-day $2500

I'd say Gun Site and Thunder Ranch are more in line with Blackwater, prices wise. Front Site distinguishes themselves in being the most expensive, by far.

Blackwater is by far the closest, for me.
 
I recommend Gun Site, but your tax money payed for that, a few times, I loved every minute of it, they have just about every situation set up, from CQB handgun to Snipers courses.

I have a friend with a "Super Membership" to Front Sight, he seems to like it.
 
i recomend tdi ohio, and tactical response.
that is a good start i am not sure of what trainning you are looking at inparticular but they will cover about everything.
 
I'll recommend Front Sight.

I bought a "Challenge" lifetime membership at Front Sight a year ago and I've been really pleased with the two classes I've taken so far. That is the 4 day defensive handgun and the 4 day select fire M-16 classes. I'm already satisfied that my money was well spent for just those two classes, and I have a lifetime of free classes ahead of me. I've learned a ton and am much more confident, competent and safe now. I've never been to the other places, but I expect they are pretty comparable.

If you look on eBay you can find 2day/4day Front Sight certificates for about $100.
Click to expand...

I'd highly recommend getting a certificate off Ebay and checking Front Sight out. If you like them then find a membership that you like and buy that. But don't even consider spending $2000 for one class. Oh, and I'd also recommend taking the 4 day class, not the two day.

If you get on their website and subscribe to the email newsletter you'll get an email practically every day, but every once in a while they advertise a really good deal. I've seen different versions of their lifetime memberships go for less than $2000. But I should say that their latest emails said they would be raising prices as of last week.

If you haven't seen their "Legacy" DVD you should ask for them to send that to you as well. It is admittedly cheesy, but that is what sold me on getting a membership before I ever even took a class. Granted I waited until the price was right. But I really like the founder's purpose and goal of preserving and restoring our gun rights by improving the image of gun ownership in America.
 
Nice to see the Blackwater guys, who have not only kept their clients safe but suffered some real tragedies of their own in the sandbox called "yahoos" and "cowboys" by people who apparently believe everything CNN tells them. :rolleyes:
 
Worked closely with them. I have no use for mercenaries. I trained at Blackwater for four weeks, and didn't get anything out of it I didn't get at IT or AIT. (Ft Bliss and Ft Sill) I believe it cost the US Navy a lot of money, too.
I would recommend Mid-South shooting school. (Formerly John Shaw) for whatever the rates are, or spend a few days on the range with Awerbuck.
 
+1 on the waiting to see what happens with the Blackwater guys. Unless you are of the type to accept the mainstream media's version of anything remotley political or about guns as gospel truth.
 
Take a look at Tactical Response.

Lodging is free for classes taken in Camden TN.
Training runs $400 for 2 day classes. $1250 for 5 day classes.
 
Take a look at Tactical Response.

Lodging is free for classes taken in Camden TN.
Training runs $400 for 2 day classes. $1250 for 5 day classes.
Click to expand...
plus they have the alumni trainning day every year which is free to aluminis how awesome is that!
 
Wait, wait! You can't go to Tactical Response... the owner was once an EVIL MERCENARY.

In fact, they have training courses designed for people who want to become EVIL MERCENARIES that work for EVIL BLACKWATER!!!one.

It's so easy to call people names on the internet... its easy to make accusations. Blackwater has a good reputation for training. I wouldnt hesitate to take a course at their facility. As for the badness of being associated with them by a jury...? Come on.
 
You guys could just focus on the training aspect instead of attacking or defending blackwater. Would help the original poster.
 
Again, I couldn't tell what the hype was all about.

I went to Blackwater, which is a really beautiful facility. The first time I went, the course I attended was taught by three Virginia Beach SWAT guys. Great training, but really not anything special.
Second time it had completely changed to this whole other animal, and the training was conducted by some of their ex-military guys, who were total cowboys. (All of us were active duty, and we got treated like second-class citizens.)
Third time was like the second, only worse. The part that bugged me is that basic Infantry training and Advanced infantry training combined with Army MOUT was FAR superior training, and it was taught by senior Infantry Sergeants, and we were treated with professional courtesy. That didn't happen at Blackwater.
I get it, really I do, $850 per day is really good money. I also liked that the contractors in Iraq set up a really nice high-speed wireless router that we all use regularly. I can tell you that their reputation is actually not as bad as it would seem here in the US.
When someone is concerned about physical security, they will be in good hands with Blackwater.
Make a long story very long, they are good at a lot of things, but the training I received there wasn't any better than the basic stuff the Army/Marine Corps hands out.
If it is my money out of my pocket, I'd go somewhere else.
 
I'm another Frontsight member (actually, heading there this weekend). The training is good, safety is constantly stressed, contrary to internet BS you aren't given high-pressure pitches for memberships, land, or a change of religion. Students are also not required to form a circle and chant "ooga-booga" while a live goat is sacrificed in the center of a pentangle, to cap off the night shoot. (I've read crap almost as strange about the place, but never by anyone who's actually been there).

The 4-day certs (for first-time students only) are an incredible deal, and can give you a good feel for whether you'd like to get a membership or not (of course, your proximity to FS is a factor in how often you'd likely use the benefits). If you by chance live within a reasonable driving distance, the memberships (when on sale) are a great bargain.

You'll likely learn how much you don't know within the 4-day course, and the courses are well-suited to be taken again and again. I'm taking 4-day HG this weekend for the third time in 3 years, and fully plan on shooting at Distinguished Graduate level on the skills test this time (wish me luck, I just missed by a few points the last time).
 
Disclosure: I'm a part time Practical Rifle instructor for Front Sight, and a student of many of their courses.

That said, my opinion is that Front Sight is GREAT for a beginning student the first time around. If you know nothing to a moderate amount about guns and shooting, you will enjoy yourself there, and learn a lot. Probably most importantly for first timers and inexperienced shooters are the lectures on use of force, civil and criminal liability, color code of mental awareness, and others.

But, if you've already attended several shooting schools, including BlackWater, GunSite, Thunder Ranch, Yavapai, etc., then you will be wondering where your money went. The reason is because Front Sight assumes that each student knows nothing. Unfortunately, there is no "test" to see where to place you in the curriculum, so you are forced to listen to the lowest common denominator curriculum.

The good news is that once you get to take the basic level tests (at the END of your first 4-day class), assuming you can pass at the Graduate or better yet, the Distinguished Graduate levels, you will be cleared for higher speed classes. However, it's frustrating for people that want or need special instruction (say you're a police sniper and want to take the Precision Rifle class), you have no way of placing directly into the class. On the plus side, the reason for that is so that when you do make it to that class, you won't be held back by anybody that shouldn't be there (doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, either, as far as I've seen).

If you do have a ton of cash to blow, you can always pay for private instruction with Front Sight, and they have a great pool of very well informed and experienced instructors.

Hope this helps.
 
kingpin008 said:
What Aguila said. I don't care how comprehensive the training is, no way in HELL I'd ever give Blackwater a dime after what those yahoos did.
Click to expand...

I had typed some other things, but I'll leave it at this.

Sometimes you just have to have been there to understand, bad things happen, when your brothers start showing thier blood, when your brothers start to die, all the rules go away, for we'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, who is inocent in this world anymore... who are you to judge unless you were there?
 
I wish Blackwater (Virginia) offered more courses for ordinary law-abiding civilians.

There's all sorts of good training available West of where I am, but I'm on the East Coast and extensive travel is not an option for me unless I book vacation time from work (not real easy) and store up some cookies in the jar with Mrs. Slob.

Last March I drove 16 hours (each way) to a (fun) one-day course in Indiana. Man, was I wiped out after that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
Anyone a member of Front Sight or Gun Sight?
Replies
24
Views
2K
Endyo
E
L
  • Locked
Front Sight offering Springfield XD for free
Replies
15
Views
1K
nplant
N
Neo-Luddite
  • Locked
Chicago Tribune article on Blackwater North
2
Replies
46
Views
2K
AndyC
A
D
  • Locked
getting shotgun ready for Blackwater?
Replies
14
Views
911
Fred Fuller
F
B
  • Locked
Just got an email from Front Sight
2
Replies
43
Views
2K
Nuke8401
Nuke8401
Back
Top