FrontSight questions

Status
Not open for further replies.
And all this time I thought it was ClonaKitty.

Oh man, if I could change anything I would change my THR name (I also use this at GlockTalk, Falfiles, etc.). When I selected it I thought it was cool because it was so obscure (and reflective of my Irish roots). But it turns out that its obscurity makes it hard to read, pronounce and remember! :(
 
Nightwatch, you've got one of the finest schools in the country in New Hampshire - Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute. I've taken LFI-1 through LFI-3. Highly recommended. See www.ayoob.com for more course details.
 
If it saves the 2A and keeps weapons in the hands of future Americans, so be it. Scientology is pretty popular in Hollywood. And he has a national vision using mass media. Something pro-rkba orgs have been reluctant or unwilling to do.

And the man has this right: We are the make or break generation. There is nothing left to compromise.

Im all for him.
 
Well at least my statement about FS threads heading off into non-training related issues has held true. I'm surprised it went this far before Scientology came up.

Look, I spent four days there, saw the guy every day during the lunch break, and never knew he was supposedly a Scientologist until long after the course was over. You are not going to get a Dianetics class there, okay? You are getting firearm instruction and a moderately annoying sales pitch for real estate that's very easy to ignore unless you happen to be a lot wealthier than I am.

There are a lot of people with what I consider some fairly odd belief systems out there, but unless they are trying to sell me a Watchtower or get me to drink suspicious Kool Aide, they can worship in the First Church of Elvis as far as I'm concerned. I realize that the religion/politics/sexual orientation/whatever of people with whom they have business dealings is important to some people, but in this case it has absolutely no discernable affect on the quality or nature of the training delivered by the school.

Now, there have been some legitimate and troubling issues outside of the training that might cause one to consider alternate venues on principle -- I'm not going to rehash them here (just remember that in internet forums anyone can say anything and there are often axes being ground on both sides of any given issue). A search of the TFL archives should turn them up (I believe there was one related to an incident on GlockTalk that kicked off quite a discussion). My point is, if you are just interested in the training and have no interest in all the side issues, that's what you'll get out of FS.

Would I go there again? No -- for personal reasons unrelated to the school and because I'd likely want to go to Thunder Ranch and Gunsite first to see what they have to offer -- but that's not in any way a criticism of the instruction I received there, which I consider excellent.
 
http://www.watchman.org/sci/scientologymafia.htm

Controversy continues to rage around Scientology, due mostly to the totalitarian and abusive nature of its practices. The evolution and history of Scientology raises serious and fundamental questions about freedoms and protections of religion and even what or who defines a religion. Scientology is an anomaly on even a diverse religious landscape. It does, in fact, involve religious belief (in what most outsiders would regard as science fiction). But that belief appears to have been built chiefly as a cover for exploitive commercial operations.

Scientology's history of terror and abuse appears to be the result of its founder's delusion and paranoia. Evidence of L. Ron Hubbard's delusional character was well documented in court where the trial judge concluded, "The organization [Scientology] clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, LRH [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements." (Church of Scientology v. Armstrong, No. C420153, California Supreme Court, 1984)._

Scientology is governed by inviolate policies or "Scriptures" of L. Ron Hubbard which, when followed, have produced an extraordinary record of institutionalized abuse, financial exploitation, harassment, intimidation, civil and criminal convictions of its members, leaders, and even the church itself._

One critic, Reader's Digest senior editor Eugene Methvin, experienced serious harassment by Scientology. He has aptly charged, "Scientology is far more than mere religion…[it is] a multi-national racket masquerading as a religion." ("Scientology: the Sickness Spreads," Reader's Digest, September, l981, reprint, p.2).


also check out www.Xenu.net and read what $cientology does to people
 
also check out www.Xenu.net and read what $cientology does to people

Scientology doesn't do anything to people. People do it to themselves. Just like any other religion or belief.

Even if Piazza is the head guru at Scientology, the other employees and instructors probably are not involved at all.
------
Twoblink originally asked about the resort and community.

I can tell you that the training there is top-notch. The resort is still being built and will probably take a few more years to be finished (my opinion).

There really is no community because no one lives there, yet.

If you want excellent gun training, then FrontSight will suffice. If you want to move in tomorrow to live in the advertised community, you will be disappointed.
 
also check out www.Xenu.net and read what $cientology does to people

Which has exactly what to do with whether the instruction given by FS is any good or not, which was the original question of the thread? If someone has a moral problem with what Piazza does with the money FS takes in, then he or she doesn't have to go, just as you don't have to patronize Walmart, Microsoft, or whatever particular organization bothers you. You can even boycott Tom Cruise and John Travolta movies if you really want to make sure none of your money goes to the Scientologists.

But it has nothing to do with the very narrow question of whether the instruction at the school is any good or not. It is, and it is not, from personal experience, used as a platform to market Scientology to anyone.
 
Hey TwoBlink,

I was going to stay out of this thread, but I see someone brought up the scientology thing again, so I thought I'd chime in.

I am on their instructor staff
I am a first family member
I've been affiliated with them since Bakersfield days in 1998

I have never, ever, even caught wind of anything about scientology being mentioned or otherwise either in class, instructor meetings, anything.

IF the founder or anyone else is involved with scientology, they certainly keep it to themselves.

Are they pushy about memberships, money, etc? Yes, it can seem so, but they are trying to run a business, get a resort built without outside funding (and control!) and they are on a mission to have as many folks get some training as they can and to change the image of guns and gun ownership. I think its pretty cool, actually, that other than just making some money, they also are taking on a more fundamental issue and complementing the fight for RKBA which is a fight we're going to lose if we don't get active. As a new dad I certainly don't want to see the day come where my son no longer lives in a free country with the right to protect himself and his family. And as a resident of California, where a handful of victim disarmament ninnies in sacramento are able to do so much gun grabbing, I see the need even more painfully.

I (and the others I know from Front Sight) also do not diss the other shooting schools. I think there are a lot of great schools out there and the important thing is getting some reputable training and learning as a complement to firearms ownership.

Regards,
-Badwolf
 
I (and the others I know from Front Sight) also do not diss the other shooting schools. I think there are a lot of great schools out there and the important thing is getting some reputable training and learning as a complement to firearms ownership.

I can vouch for that. Some humor was had at the expense of someone at an unnamed school who put a .223 round through his hotel room wall while "dry firing", but no criticism was ever made of the school itself, nor was the school named.

I can say that the instructors I saw could practice what they preached. My main instructor was a man named John Woo (seriously), and he was a precision shooting machine with a great teaching style. This place is a good school for firearm instruction -- whatever other issues there may be, it is that.
 
actually, the original question was:

Well Harry, you're right. My mistake. I think I had this confused with an FS thread on Strategy and Tactics that was posted recently. Sorry about that.
 
"My main instructor was a man named John Woo (seriously), and he was a precision shooting machine with a great teaching style. "

I mentioned several times on this board that I thought the basic handgun course was outstanding. In my class, the rangemaster was John Woo. If I am not mistaken, he is a California doctor. He was superb. He was a truely great instructor and did a little shooting that amazed me.
We had one of those picture targets with a guy with a shopping bag in his hands. I don't remember exactly but I believe you could see a gun in the bag or maybe he had the gun in his hand but his hand was still inside the bag. I don't think the guy was facing you, he was turned to the side. Whatever, anyway, The object of the drill was to only shoot the targets that presented an immediate threat of deadly force. This target was kind of a question. A lot of people didn't think this guy presented justification for deadly force. Whatever the picture was, John Woo demonstated how this guy could immediately take you under fire. He stood facing 90 degrees to the target and kind of whipped his pistol out of the holster at the target. It was like he was just raising his arm at a 90 degree angle to his body. It would be similar to you throwing a ball underhand off to the side of your body. He did this about four times and had a group on the target that were all COM and could be covered with your hand. I didn't describe that very well, I guess you had to be there, but it was very impressive to me. And while he was doing this, he was going right along with his lecture.
 
my frontsight experience

I just returned from the 4 day defensive handgun course this past weekend (oct 7-11).

I can also vouch for the top-notch quality of the instruction I recevied. All of the instructors on my range were very friendly and helpful. What really impressed me was their willingness to spend individual one-on-one time with students that needed extra help. The other thing that was impressive was their ability to emphasize and enforce range safety procedures in a positive manner. Whenever there was an observed violation (such as covering your support hand while drawing from the holster) they would stop the drill and correct the student without yelling or being condescending.

To answer a comment earlier in this thread, most of the instructors there had an extensive firearms history beyond front-sight training. The instructors I met had extensive backgrounds in law enforcement or in the military before becomming a front-sight instructor.

There were lots of range drills live and dry. The first 2 days focused more on instruction and dry practice. There were alot of first-timers in my class, and everybody felt a little overwhelmed after day 2, but everybody was doing better by the end of day 3. The live fire drills really pick up on day 3 & 4. I shot ~500 rounds over the 4 days with at least 250 on day 4 alone.

The things I really enjoyed were the tactical scenarios in the shoot houses (we did 3 different scenarios), the man-on-man shooting contest and the night shoot. The skills test at the end of the course is very hard and humbling.

I found the schedule very intense. Frontsight is about a half-hour drive from Pahrump. You're getting up at 5:30 - 6:00 am at the latest to make sure you have enough time to get to breakfast and drive to the facility to be there by 8:00 am (7:00 am the first day). You typically don't leave until 6:30-7:00 pm if you stay for the evening lectures. By the time you get back to Pahrump, eat dinner, clean your weapons, and do some dry practice, it might be 10:00-11:00 pm before you get to bed. Also on day three, they have the night shoot, so you are there till at least 8:30 pm (depends on when it gets dark).

It was very windy when I was there the very fine blowing dust made weapons cleaning a must every night. The weather started out very warm on days 1 & 2 but a cold front moved in and it got chilly on days 3 & 4 (which thankfully was when we started using concealment garments). If you go, definitely check the weather forecast in advance.

The lectures that covered the moral, legal impacts of gun ownership/self-defense and the mental awareness lecture were excellent and are a must for any new gun owner. All the lecturers knew their material well and were able to present their material clearly yet with enough humor and/or personal experiences to hold the audience's attention.

As mentioned earlier, there is now a permanent classroom facility that is air conditioned. There are no food/cafeteria facilites so you must bring your own lunch. The days are long and you need to make sure you bring enough to eat to get through the day. Restroom facilities are porta-johns, but they are the cleanest porta-johns I've ever seen. There also appeared to be stacks of water-main pipe, fire-hydrants, etc around, so it would appear that full plumbing is to be installed in the very near future. I actually liked the remote and primitive feel to the facility.... I think it gave the entire experience a more serious, "down-to-business" environment, but that's just my opinion.

They do try to sell you a membership when you are there, but it didn't seem overbearing to me. They have various levels of which give you access to different selections of courses for free for life. The highest membership also includes a house-plot for those who wish to be a part of the planned community/resort. I feel the entry level memberships are worth the money if you plan on attending more than one course (or re-attending courses). I think the entry level course would pay for itself if you attend at least 5 4-day courses.

I did not pick up on any scientology or cult like qualites exhibited by the instructional staff or any of the other students. What I did get was that the instructional staff was very professional, friendly and only seemed concerned that the students improved over the course of the class.

If you can find a gray certificate for less than $300, I would definitely jump on the opportunity.

my $.02
drc

-- edited to fix my blatant mis-spelling of Pahrump
 
Last edited:
Nice review of the course.
I agree with you. That end of course final exam is very tough. Shooting everything from concealment is not easy and is far different than the one other handgun course I have taken.

By the way, it is Pahrump.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top