Frustrated with my shooting of Gen 4 G17

[FireInCairo]

Why not?? Its a mass produced firearm that is subject to QC issues same as any other production gun. The mighty glock is not infallible.

A) Sell it, as its not shooting to your standard.
B) Dump the rear sight and go with an adjustable one. to fine tune your POA.




Nothing about being a hater. Its simply fact, the gen 4's trigger can never be as good as the previous gens due to the changes in angle required for the backstraps. I have multiple gen 3's and 2 gen 4's. All with custom triggers and both gen 4's suck comparatively.

Thanks for noting this. I'm curious if even older generations of Glocks all have the same grip angle. I picked up a G17 years back and immediately knew I would not be able to shoot that thing accurately. It just felt wrong in my hands, unnatural.

I have, however, shot G27 and G23 pistols with success. It could be that my hands are on the small side.

It would be nice if anyone could point out any videos or references on the internet related to Glock grip angles over the years. I can't seem to find anything searching.

 

[AnselHazen]

I'll just toss this out there too. I'm a Steyr owner, and I held a Canik TP9 yesterday. Just out of the box holding it and dry firing in the store it had my interest.

 

[Anmut]

Eliminate the gun as the culprit by shooting it off a rest and having someone else shoot it too. I have the same issue when I drag out a 1911 after lots of range time with the glocks and revolvers.

 

[wiiawiwb]

I'm at the same juncture as the OP. I can't accurately shoot my G17 Gen 4. I've switched sights and the problem is me, no question about it. Grip angle? Who knows.

I've reached a fish-or-cut-bait point as I'm burning through ammo like a hot knife through butter.

I'm also considering a CZ.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

After 3 or 4 people who install the sights for glocks told me they were exactly right, I roughly used my caliper to determine they were off. My friend has the Glock and he is bumping the rear sight over a 1/16 of an inch. I may or may not buy the 120 dollar Glock specific sight tool.

I shot it again, before I handed it over to him. Knowing they were off made it easier. My groups got alot smaller. I was not as frustrated. However upon switching out the back straps, and honest attempts to hold my groupings as tight as I could, my hands hurt. I've never experienced that from shooting. I shot it better, but still not with the ease I can handle my other handguns.

Some times frustrating gun issues have helped me. Because of my troubles I have been dry firing a few of my guns, while trying to isolate my problem. I caught some minor issues I had going on. I didn't have enough finger on my 442. I found my sights ending up about 4 inches high at 15 yards upon dry firing.

Maybe I'm taking this too seriously, but it has been frustrating. Thanks again for every bodies help. I still want a CZ 75. But I'll keep my Glock around enough to get better.

 

[Zerodefect]

A few points:

1.) Shooting off of a rest doesn't always work. It helps, but you still have to make sure the gun is staying on target during the pull. Some opperator error faults still occur on the rest.

2.) The Site Lite oring and magnet laser never lies:
This tool has never failed to align my pistol sights. (rifle sights, not so much)

3.) Complex dot sights can really mess with your head. Some peoples brains can really get scrambled by the garbled message the messy cluttered sights offer. This is why you see so many pro's and comp shooters with plain black rears. My brain gets fried by colors and dots. I need CONTRAST. Either between the front and rear sight, IE plain black rear bright front. Or contrast between plain black sights, the light gap between the sights. Plain black sights only, or a fiberoptic or nightsight on the front only.

4.) Sometimes night sights have a white dot off center. So if your eye accidentally grabs a dot instead of the steel.......... XS Big dots were notorious for having the rear sights "I" lamp drilled off center compared to the loose V.

5.) All Glocks can use some trigger TLC. Don't fear spending some time to clean up the trigger.

I always use a Lone Wolf 3.5 connector, smooth G34 g3 trigger bar, stronger trigger spring, a gallon of polish, sand the trigger shoe and trigger safety flush and non-distracting, and undercut the right side trigger frame corner for reduced "Glock finger".

6.) Shooting high on a Glock generally indicates bad grip or stance technique.
7.) Shooting left is generally fighting the trigger pull.
8.) Stock Glock sights stink. Even perfectly good examples have been spotty for me. I couldn't figure out why. All my measurment tools said they were on straight, but my shooting, and my laser agreed that something was wonky. Warren Sevigny comp sights fixed that.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

My rear sight was aligned wrong. Does that tool adjust sights or check them? Everything you are mentioning is helpful. I honestly believe for precision small group shooting, nothing beats blade sights. But for defense, I firmly believe in night sights. I think I will do trigger work on my Glock. But I want to take it one thing at a time. This experience overloaded my sensory.

 

[njl]

I have been told by 3rd party installers, that not only are my orange trijicon sights installed perfectly, but the factory sights will never stay on after being removed.

Have any of them offered an explanation as to why the factory sights will never work again? Sometimes (especially if the person is lacking in patience, using the wrong tools, or an idiot), the factory sights will be damaged in the process of removing them...but if that's not the case, unless your slide was modified in order to install poorly fitting aftermarket sights (again, by an idiot), there's no reason factory sights can't be reinstalled and stay put.

Shooting high left is a new one to me. Low left is the most common issue for righty's with Glocks. If you think you're losing the orange dot sights in the orange bullseye, an easy fix is try another target...like a white paper plate with a black aiming dot in the center (shoot-n-see black paster, black sharpie or other marker, whatever).

There's also http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

If you're comfortable disassembling the trigger group, you could remove the trigger housing, separate the trigger bar from it, remove the connector from the housing, and with a small rag, your fingers, and some flitz or similar polish, polish the connector and trigger bar (then lubricate and reassemble). This will give you a smoother trigger pull, possibly a few ounces lighter.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

A gun range employees told me if he the put the factory sights back on they would not stay. He didn't really say why. I don't think the slide was damaged when they were installed. The trijicons are off, making me shoot left. I hope they will be adjusted accordingly. If not, I will purchase the sight tool to adjust them myself.

I don't wanna drop 120 on it for this one situation. It looked like a Glock specific tool. I only have one glock.

Thank you for the link.

Shooting high is new to me too I guess. In genereal, I do not shoot as often as I used to. This gun having the many different back straps is a challenge in itself. I'm hoping that as the rear sight moved right, it may effect elevation slightly. As I said earlier, I was doing better with it this last time. Identifying the problem relieved some frustration.

 

[Zerodefect]

The laser just shows alignment, it does nothing to fix it. It just sends a red dot out to your wall. It should be halfway visible around the tip of the front sight. Sometimes a perfectly good sight setup will be too far to one side.

I use a hammer and vise for sights. I never use pushers. Use a decent mm ruler to measure the distance you move the sight. It's not too easy with rounded slide tops, but you just kinda eyeball it.

I generally recommend a Warren Sevigny comp rear sight, and a .125" wide and .245" tall front night sight for the Glock 17, for night use. (front night sight only)

Measure the height of the front sight before installation. Sometimes what they call .245 isn't. Then if the pistol shoot low, grind down the front sight until it shoots where you want it (ruining it). Measure again to figure out what height is left, don't forget their error if their .245 sight was actually .255 and account for that. In that case if you wanted a .225, you'd ask for a .235 instead, assuming that sight is as messed up as the 1st was when new. Then buy another sight to replace the one you just ground up. It's not uncommon for me to buy two sights for a pistol, but if I do my homework well, I never have to buy a third.

Usually Dawsons #'s make perfect sense though.

Sight adjustment and replacement is a most have skill IMO. The pro's don't get to spend as much time as we can, they have to turn a profit. And they can't exactly try 3 front sights to get it perfect, and then only charge for 1.

If the laser says your pistol is dead on though, then we know for sure it ain't the sights. That's why that tool is so handy. (I won't buy a 1911 without it) If you plan on having many more pistols in your collection, or plan on accurizing sight setups often, it's worth the $100 or whatever they cost now. It's stone cold proof that it's either the guns fault, or the shooters fault. That's money right there.

My Glock 41 will shoot with my Dan Wesson Valor all day long. And that particular Valor eats Les Baers. The Glock is perfectly accurate, the only thing that holds Glocks back is the stiff trigger that's tough to master, especially stock. I don't buy the "it's just a Glock" nonsense either. That a newb response from any gun shop employee.

 

[Captains1911]

I'm a good shooter, as is one of my buddies I compete with, and my G17 Gen 4 shoots high and left for us both. I'm using Trijicon HD sights, and I've corrected the windage by drifting the rear sight almost as far to the right as I can without it hanging off the edge. This is the only glock I've owned that has had this issue.

 

[HexHead]

Nothing about being a hater. Its simply fact, the gen 4's trigger can never be as good as the previous gens due to the changes in angle required for the backstraps.

For instance, Zev Technologies will not do any of their trigger mods on a Gen4 due to this. If you want a Zev Glock, it's going to be a Gen3.

 

[Warp]

I shot it again, before I handed it over to him. Knowing they were off made it easier. My groups got alot smaller.

You are doing something wrong. There's no way around it. It doesn't matter how the sights are off, if you are doing what you should be when the term "group" is applied to the results...the group size should be the same regardless of whether you know the sight is off, or not.

You should be holding the same point of aim (POA) for every shot in the group, and the group size should be the same...even if it is off to a side or up or down...it's SIZE should be the same.

I'm a good shooter, as is one of my buddies I compete with, and my G17 Gen 4 shoots high and left for us both. I'm using Trijicon HD sights, and I've corrected the windage by drifting the rear sight almost as far to the right as I can without it hanging off the edge. This is the only glock I've owned that has had this issue.

I have to drive the rear sight to the right to some degree on all my Glocks. On the very first one I got, which is still my favorite, it's drifted right a very small amount. But on the last one I got, a Gen4 G19, the right side of the rear sight is basically flush with the side of the frame. But I shot consistent groups, centered, with it. It's...somewhat disconcerting to look at because the rear sight is so far off, I don't know how it shoots straight with it over that far, but it pretty much does.

 

[JTQ]

From NSSF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukuq-QhAXDY

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Warp, I'm certain I did something wrong. But as I was attempting to isolate my problem by changing out back straps, and messing with my trigger finger angle my groups were larger than normal. For now on, I will be installing my own sights and hopefully have a method to adjust them.

Thanks everybody.

 

[eldon519]

John, I'm not entirely clear from what you've said, but have you asked another person to shoot it and if so did they have the same problem? That could help isolate whether it is the shooter or the gun. Maybe your friend or a gun range employee could give it a try.

Also if you need new sights, Glock factory sights are cheap. They also make factory steel replacements which I would pick before going back to the crappy factory plastic ones. If it is indeed the gun that is the problem, a taller front sight will make it shoot lower.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

I had people shoot it. And honestly they said it was okay, but they weren't as into precision shooting as I am. I had 3 or 4 people tell me they were installed perfectly. The guy who installed them finally checked them and he agreed they were off. He is bumping them for me and has the gun.

I also heard alot of "glocks are combat guns." That sounded like b.s. to me. My sights were off, and nobody cared about it as much as me because it's my gun. My others guns came with fixed sights or adjustable sights. I have never had this problem.

The biggest thing I have learned is to be set up to handle this myself. It was me messing with my caliper when I realized it was the gun and not me.

Pardon my post if it has been hard to follow.

Thank you.

 

[AK103K]

I also heard alot of "glocks are combat guns." That sounded like b.s. to me.

They are, just like anything else, but not in the context suggested. They are just as accurate as anything else, if you can shoot.

As with most things, its usually never the shooters fault if they cant hit anything, but you know how that goes.

Id be willing to bet that most box stock guns are capable of better accuracy than most, if not all who shoot them.

The biggest thing I have learned is to be set up to handle this myself. It was me messing with my caliper when I realized it was the gun and not me.

Assuming there is nothing wrong with the gun, which is generally a rarity, if they dont shoot where the sights are when the shot breaks, then just adjust the sights to suit. All my Glocks have the rear sight towards the right side of the slide. When I point shoot, the rounds go right where Im looking. Works for me.

 

[Jed Carter]

IMO, I would think the rear sight is too far left, and the front sight is too short. I would call the experts with Glock sights, Dawson Precision, to get the help you need. http://dawsonprecision.com/

 

[Warp]

IMO, I would think the rear sight is too far left, and the front sight is too short. I would call the experts with Glock sights, Dawson Precision, to get the help you need. http://dawsonprecision.com/

A rear sight to the left would make the shots go *left* indeed

 

[AK103K]

Easy way to remember:

And its still confusing.


"A rear sight to the left would make the shots go right."

 

[njl]

A rear sight to the left would make the shots go right.

Easy way to remember: FORS - Front Opposite Rear Same with respect to POI shift as youmove the sights, as in, moving the rear sight to the left moves the point of impact to the left.

But you still got it backwards. A rear sight too far left or moved left will make shots too far left or go left. You don't need an acronym for this. Make a gun with your thumb and first finger. Move your thumb left. Which way do you have to move your finger/rotate your hand to realign them? Left!

If the front sight is adjustable, move your finger tip. Moving the finger tip left requires you to rotate the whole hand right to realign...so for an adjustable front sight, moving the front left will move POI right.

 

[Zerodefect]

Rear sight: Move left, shoots left. Move right, shoots right.

 

[Warp]

But you still got it backwards. A rear sight too far left or moved left will make shots too far left or go left. You don't need an acronym for this. Make a gun with your thumb and first finger. Move your thumb left. Which way do you have to move your finger/rotate your hand to realign them? Left!

If the front sight is adjustable, move your finger tip. Moving the finger tip left requires you to rotate the whole hand right to realign...so for an adjustable front sight, moving the front left will move POI right.

I did?

How did I do that, damn. I know it too...I visualized it...I don't know what I was thinking.

Damn.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

I actually have become the friend to sight in guns. If I have the means to adjust them, I usually make it happen fairly easily.

I don't have the Glock sight tool, I may or may not buy one. I have trijicon sights. What would be the cheapest way to bump it, without buying the tool or damaging the sight???