Full-auto blackmarket?

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I was injured on the 'Job' (Military) and got sent to Ft. Knox so I could be close to the Medical Specialist that worked in Louisville, Ky.
Part of the 'Work Therapy' was spending two days a week working for the Patton Museum...

I couldn't figure out why an EOD/Armorer would be needed at a Museum, and figured it was a sham job to keep me out of the way when I wasn't in physical therapy...

You simply could not believe the stuff the City of Louisville (and subburbs) and towns around the base found in homes!
The stuff that got carried off from the base down through the years showed up on a weekly basis, and it was INCREDABLE,

Plus at the Museum, people would be cleaning out WW I, WW II, Korea veterans homes and send us what they found!

It was nothing to get live mortars or live grenades in the mail! I was COMPLETELY freaked out!

They would have notes in the boxes like,
"This was dad's/grandpa's war souvenir, hope it helps your museum!"
OR,
"Found this in a house an old guy went to the nursing home from, can you use it?"

Even police departments, VFW's and such would send us stuff unsolicited or without any advance notice!

Anyway, there were some nice examples of 'Machine Guns' and other DDD (Dangerous & Destructive Devices) The BATFE says you can't have...

I still cringe thinking about one of the office girls plunking down a German 'Potato Masher' grenade in an opened box on my work table and saying,
"There is something Oozing out of this thing, Do you want it or should I throw it out?" :what:
 
Black- vs White-Market

I've had the urge to own a REAL AK47 for thirty years or more, since home from 'Nam. I could only afford SKS pieces. At the time, I bought 5 SKS--47-5s with TYLA roll-marks at Indy 1500 show for $400, total. Cash-&-carry. Now those same guns sell for $400~500 range each. Wish I'd bought more. There was an unlimited supply. Steel-core 7.62x39 went for $50 a case (1300rds). All the AKs were "fake", non-FA which didn't interest me. A change-over to FA cost about $50. Also didn't interest me. Now Ive been researching a REAL M-14 to buy, since I have a very nice, complete M1A which I got for $900, all accessories and papers. I've got a ton of ammo to use up. Now the M1A is worth over $5000, I hear, but not for sale. I have found nice, FULLY PROVENENCED BATFE approved M14s going for $14,000~20,000. When I first started looking they were just $9000~10,000. I expect that price to rise, but I have got at least 6 legit sources for those guns, fully papered and all. Might need to cash in some gold coin to get one before TSHTF. BTW, " the Stormfront crowd" site is totally flagged and monitored by HSA, along with some other rabid sites. Most any site that over-glamorizes the "Stars'n'bars" is considered monitor-worthy. Want to get your e-mail monitored? Just post 3 consecutive statements anwhere including the word "OBAMA", and you're on the list. "Assassinate" also works. And, o'yeah: "very rapid fire" is NOT "full-auto", or "select-fire", so it's legal.
 
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Unread June 2nd, 2009, 08:27 PM #27
Quiet
Senior Member


Join Date: 04-29-07
Location: bouncing between the 909 & the 702
Posts: 1,086

AFAIK...

In 1996, the US Customs' "Operation Dragon Fire" lead to the biggest machinegun bust in USA history.

2000 Chinese (China North Industries) AK47s (select-fire Type 56 rifles) and 20,000 AK 30 round magazines were sold to two undercover US Customs Agents by Chinese nationals in the USA.
The undercover agents paid a total of $4,000,000 for everything.
(Breaks down to $2000 for one AK with ten 30 round magazines.)

During the deal, the Chinese nationals told the undercover agents that they could provide them with man-portable SAMs (Chinese SA-7 clones) and RPGs (Chinese RPG-7 clones), if they wanted those as well.

All the blackmarket firearms were suppose to go to Asian street gangs in San Francisco and Los Angeles area.
__________________
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).




That is just UNTRUE. I know Hammond, and my family is friends of him. WHAT HAPPENED was he was brokering a deal and sold them to Guam or wherever from china, no guns were to come here, it was a direct shipment, from another country to another country. They intercepted the ship brought it to the U.S., then charged him with importing them here!!!. after a 12 YEAR legal battle, he finally served 1 year (Last Year) for possesion of 1 mg (the sample) now considering it was "the largest bust ever" do you really think he would get 1 year if he was all that??? He got Boned

The ATF enforces laws against illegal sales, but agents acknowledge the limits of their success. The largest U.S. seizure of illegal guns came to a head this summer in the Los Angeles area when Hammond Ku pleaded guilty to importing 2,000 AK-47 automatic weapons from China.

http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/nation/guns/gunpart2.html

FUD
 
Man... 1300 rounds of steel core 7.62x39mm for $50... what I wouldn't give to see those days again.

Anyway, full auto weapons are out there. I don't think they're any doubt about that. Full auto AK-47's seem to be the most common, at least from what I gather. I work in a max security prison, and many of our inmates are transplants from Cook county who moved up to the Twin Cities to continue their shennigans here (surprise surprise). One of our older guys was a big Gangster Disciple in the 80's and early 90's, having grown up in the now-demolished Cabrini Green housing projects. After I saw the History Channel's "GangLand" episode on the Disciples, I asked him if they really had celebratory shootings on New Year's day. He looked at me like I was retarded and said "Yeah, of course we did that s***. I was shootin' off an AK47 at three in the afternoon."

From what other bangers tell me, guns are pretty easy to get if you're a gang member. Of course you have to be a complete lowlife loser, but if you're willing to sacrifice every ounce of integrity I guess the gun market gets a lot more friendly for you. :D
 
"I still cringe thinking about one of the office girls plunking down a German 'Potato Masher' grenade in an opened box on my work table and saying,
"There is something Oozing out of this thing, Do you want it or should I throw it out?" "

I literally LOL'ed!
 
So the 1986 ban prevents any attempt to enact an amnesty now? Pity.

When my grandpa passed away in 2006, one of the nurses at his nursing home found a 1935 Beretta pistol (he brought it back from WW2) and called my uncle. The nurse said to my uncle "We found a firearm and we have a strict policy of not allowing firearms at our facility." My uncle politely went and retrieved it (this is in MO where you don't need a permit to own a handgun) and I inherited it at the funeral wake.
 
in my 44 years(some of that time spent as not such an upstanding citizen) I have only seen one full auto(illegal) that was offered to me......said hell no and turned the tweeker into the cops, he was wanted anyway.

if there is an black market.....I aint seen it, but maybe I wasnt as bad as I thought ;)
 
Just off the wall, has anyone ever had a 10/22 or 1100 go full auto.
I would say a lot of full auto guns get sold every day without anybody knowing.
May be even more then are sold black market.
 
In my youth I spent time with some less than reputeable charecters. One day I dropped in to visit them and they asked me if I could tell them what some stuff was worth. I said sure not thinking anything of it (Come to think of it, in my youth I wasnt that good about thinking about things in general ).
They Pulled a dufflebag out of a closet that contained several bricks of c-4, blasting caps, and a MK II sten gun that was the real deal. They explained that the stuff came from a former soldier in EOD and had no idea what any of the stuff was. After looking at it I told them they had a bunch of trouble there and left.
I never talked to them after that so I don't know what happened, and quite frankly I don't want to know. That day was the really the day I realized I was maybe in over my head and needed to shape up.

So yes there are full auto weapons out there on the black market, but I think for the most part criminals would save those things for BIG disputes and just keep to their jennings and lorcins for day to day business.
 
I beg to differ when some say that the average thug will not have them. First hand I know of a couple of shady who have had them. Granted they were usually MACs and Tecs, but I have even seen where one was selling M16s. Kind of scary actually.
 
If you go over to the subguns.com boards, there seems to be one string a week about someone finding as MG in the effects of a WW2 vet. They are worth a lot if papered...which is why there are attempts underway to get another amnesty period declared.
 
They are worth a lot if papered...which is why there are attempts underway to get another amnesty period declared.
Click to expand...

The SCOTUS ruled against such amnesties. They were declared several times in the 1960s. The problem was since someone had to admit to breaking the law to become legally papered, the ATF had the discretion of processing the paperwork, or arresting and charging the individual, or just seizing the illegal weapons with the person happy to not be charged.
So it was considered a violation of the right to not self incriminate under the Constitution. The decision was compared to the otherwise illegal drug "Tax Stamps" previously required, and overturned by the SCOTUS on the same grounds.
Requiring someone to obtain a stamp or get a permit for something illegal they have been or will be doing is a legal requirement to self incriminate. Ruled a violation of the Constitution.

An Amnesty requires self incrimination to become papered. That violates the SCOTUS ruling. Without a reversal or clarification of the decision by the SCOTUS that is not going to change. So no Amnesty is likely.
 
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zoogster said:
The SCOTUS ruled against such amnesties. They were declared several times in the 1960s. The problem was since someone had to admit to breaking the law to become legally papered, the ATF had the discretion of processing the paperwork, or arresting and charging the individual, or just seizing the illegal weapons with the person happy to not be charged.
So it was considered a violation of the right to not self incriminate under the Constitution. The decision was compared to the otherwise illegal drug "Tax Stamps" previously required, and overturned by the SCOTUS on the same grounds.
Requiring someone to obtain a stamp or get a permit for something illegal they have been or will be doing is a legal requirement to self incriminate. Ruled a violation of the Constitution.

An Amnesty requires self incrimination to become papered. That violates the SCOTUS ruling. Without a reversal or clarification of the decision by the SCOTUS that is not going to change. So no Amnesty is likely.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me what scotus ruling your citing specifically?
 
Can you tell me what scotus ruling your citing specifically?
Click to expand...
I was actually cititing a few of them. The most relevant to the situation would be Haynes v. United States of 1968, and United States v. Freed 1971.

Haynes was a convicted felon, and under the NFA everyone was required to register thier NFA firearms. Haynes made the argument that since it was illegal for him even have a firearm as a convicted felon (since the 1968 GCA), he could not be forced to register because it forced him to incriminate himself. Legal required self-incrimination violates the Constitution.
The court decided in favor of that argument 7-1. Exempting felons or other prohibited classes from all gun registration requirements or resulting punishments under law for failure to register in the USA.

So as a result of Haynes felons and other prohibited classes could not be held to any gun registration laws, or prosecuted under thier punishments. Only law abiding citizens who are not prohibited from owning the firearm in question could be held to registration requirements and prosecuted for failure to register without violating the Constitutional protection against self-incrimination.



Expanding on that decision was United States v. Freed. Freed was required because Congress amended the Act as a result of Haynes. In the Freed decision they primarily cited Haynes and addressed what had changed[/B].
Since all people in possession of machineguns or other unregistered NFA items were not in legal possession, they could not apply, or more accurately the government could not require they apply for the amnesty that required self-incrimination. The government was forbidden from requiring people to self incriminate to comply with the law.
A lawful transfer of a firearm may be accomplished only if it is already registered. The transferor, not the transferee, does the registering.

Since all those people registering had to admit to illegal possession to legally register arms already in thier possession, it is still unconstitutional and no ATF amnesties have been held since or illegal guns allowed to be registered since 1971.

So you must read both the Haynes and the Freed decisions, to see where Haynes still applies, and where the Freed decision describes any changes since the Amendment to the Act by Congress.
 
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That's very interesting. Here's a hypothetical. What if instead of an amnesty the government opened up the registry and required all new machine guns to be registered. When a new machine gun, SBR, suppressor is built by a class II, it must be marked with a serial and the manufacturer's name. What would stop non-registered machine guns from being taken to a class II, marked by the class II with a new serial and gun manufacturer name, then registered accordingly?
 
That's very interesting. Here's a hypothetical. What if instead of an amnesty the government opened up the registry and required all new machine guns to be registered. When a new machine gun, SBR, suppressor is built by a class II, it must be marked with a serial and the manufacturer's name. What would stop non-registered machine guns from being taken to a class II, marked by the class II with a new serial and gun manufacturer name, then registered accordingly?
Click to expand...

The same decision. They could not require people in illegal possession register thier firearms, because under the SCOTUS decision those firearms cannot be registered, and the government can only require registration of lawfully possessed firearms. Yet illegal possession of unregistered firearms is still a crime.
So under the decision they must remain illegal and no amnesty can apply to illegal firearms, because only lawfully possessed firearms may be registered.


(Since then the FOPA also prohibits the federal government from maintaining, creating, participating in the creation of, or otherwise having a a registry of non NFA firearms. So the Federal Government can only require registration of legally held NFA firearms as of that Act of Congress.)


It could technically happen if those illegal firearms were declared legal before registration (meaning even the unregistered firearms were considered legal within a given window). Then they could still be registered without violating the act of Congress.
But they could not be illegal and then become legal upon registration during an amnesty, if that makes sense to you.

In reality though it requires an act of Congress since the Hughes Amendment to allow an amnesty. The ATF cannot act in violation of an act of Congress. Congress added a cut off date for those firearms to be registered.
The ATF has discretion in areas not already covered directly and specifically by Congress or the SCOTUS, but they cannot legally defy them on specific issues that have been covered.
 
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Re: WWII MG's, that's an interesting question to me. I had an Aunt that used to tell a story about my Grandfather having his house robbed around 1970, and the police officers who arrived to investigate asking him about guns. The story goes that after they left, he thought about it for a bit, then pulled out a few things, torch cut them into bite sized chunks, drove down to the river, and that was that. They're both gone now, and I'll never know the details, but it really might have been anything. I imagine there's less and less of that every year.

When it comes to what we think of as real criminals, I have the sense that demand limits the market pretty severely. During my short, happy time in a Prosecutor's office, (which happened to be known for more death penalty convictions than anyone else in the state, by quite a bit) we had a lot of cases with knives, bats, framing hammers, a couple of bare handed assaults with nasty results, a few handguns, one firebombing with molotovs, and exactly one with a semi auto UZI carbine (banned assault weapon at that place and time, and he missed.) Forensic Files aside, most people who commit crimes don't plan, and they certainly don't prepare. Who plans to stab the guy who wins the dice game outside the bar at 3am? How would you even plan that? That's the guy you're looking at most of the time, and if he had a fully automatic weapon, he'd probably leave it wrapped in an oily rag in his garage rafters, like everyone else. Really, what is the utility?
 
Most of us agree that 99.9999% of the gang shootings are labeled fully automatic while not. While it may make it sound worse, I don't think it's making anyone listen twice (besides us). It's an "assault weapon", they are all fully automatic to the dumb media/antis.
 
It is OUR job to call them out when they get it wrong. I know some are more willing to listen than others, but don't let a lie go unchallenged. Write the editor. Set them straight. I have seen significant improvements in my local news outlets.
 
So far I have never taken a FA weapon off of a criminal, found one in a criminal's vehicle, or found one where a criminal resided. So far it has been maybe a dozen .25 autos, mostly Ravens, including taking an old Galesi .25 complete with a loaded magazine of green corroded FMJ ammo out of the front pocket of a old geezer's overalls :). The rest have been mostly sawed off single shot break open shotguns of various makes mostly old H&Rs, more than a few Marlin Model 60 .22s, several RG .38s, and a few good guns like S&W wheelguns and Ruger P-Series autos. Thankfully I haven't run across gang bangers with AKs or anything like that.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
One more thought on the topic. I know a guy that recently had his home robbed. Two off paper AK bringbacks were taken. I'm sure he didn't put that on the police report. These items are out there in large numbers and have very high risk associated with them. It would be good public policy to do an amnesty to get the items on the books.
 
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