Full auto reality versus Hollywood perceptions?

[jagdpanzer347]

Thoughts on this appreciated, especially from combat vets and those properly trained in FA use. Especially with "assault rifles". I feel it's especially over-played in films as far as effectiveness. Looks cool, but I think at non-close ranges it's validity is greatly over-played. Supressive fire is a different topic.

 

[mljdeckard]

In 11 years in the army, I can count the times I have used the 'happy switch' on my M-16 on one hand. Minus a couple of fingers. If you are really running as a squad, the job of the rifles is to support and plug holes for the heavy gun. When there is a full-auto job to be done, I want the SAW or the 240 to do it.

I train my soldiers hitting it the first time is much more important than being able to spray it.

 

[AlexanderA]

You have a valid point. The BAR is a good example. After the experience with "marching fire" in WWI (automatic fire from the hip, while advancing), there was a serious proposal within the Army to convert the BAR's to fire semiautomatic only, on the ground that aimed individual shots would be more effective, while conserving ammunition. This proposal came to naught, because in the meantime semiautomtic rifles (such as the Garand) were being developed, that could do the same thing at half the weight. The BAR finally came into its own in time for WWII, with design improvements and changes in employment doctrine that turned it into an effective squad/platoon support weapon. (Still totally outclassed by the German MG34 or MG42.)

 

[allaroundhunter]

It is much more viable to use a FA/burst selection in close quarters than at extended ranges.

However, even at close quarters it isn't exactly 'needed'.

 

[Atom Smasher]

As a civilian, I've only had the opportunity to shoot a couple full-auto weapons, and it was a blast! I was accurate on full auto too- at a distance of 10ish yards. Any distance past that? I could get 2-3 rounds on target, but I'm willing to bet anything after that I'd be lucky to hit near the target at all. Both Hollywood (and video games too!) are bad demonstrating FA, but occasionally they get it right.

 

[vaupet]

When I was in the army, one of my mates fired 30 rnds from a vigneron 9 mm smg , in FA fired from the hip at a full mansized silhoutte at ± 30 yards and managed to get 3 rnds in it, all in arms and legs .

I fired several FA weapons, just for curiosity. Doesn't make me tick.
20 rnds 223 in less then 2 seconds just is a waste of ammo.

movies are what they are: just movies

 

[Driswalds]

I had the chance to fire a 9mm subgun on full auto.
I think it was a MP40

It was somewhat controllable at the at the 10 yard target I was firing at bursting about 5 rounds at a time. If I held the trigger down I think it would have been pulling off the target.
I would think a larger caliber (even a 5.56) would have been moving around to much to stay on target at all.

 

[Zardaia]

Unless targets are packed shoulder to shoulder you're just wasting ammo sprayin and praying. You also burn through a 30round mag a lot faster than in hollywood. Like others said, FA work's for belt fed, but even real mg's are generally fired in 6-8/12-15rnd bursts not just running out whole belts. Go through a lot of barrel changes at hollywood those rates.

M249/240b qual
GAU/GUU's prior to getting th M4
AK-47 FA fam training

 

[SKLFCO]

Hollywood < reality
Oil < water
Military ¿ intelligence
there seems to be a pattern there

 

[mstreddy]

FA in a military role is typically for suppressive fire. And if you have a need for that, then that's where the Squad's MG comes in. An M240 and a couple of M249s. There are some valid reasons why the US Mil went from FA on the M16A1 to the 3-round burst on the A2 and later M4, control, ammo conservation, force shooter to regain target, etc...
As to accuracy with FA depends very much on the weapon and shooter. I have shot an MP5SD in FA and I was able to keep all shots withing a 12" circle at 25 yards, not hard to do with that one. A full auto GAU (sort of commando M16 variant) was a little harder to stay on man size silhouette at 25 yds but doable with some practice. Same concept for the M16 in FA. Takes work to learn how to control it, but can be done. A FA Uzi was pretty easy to stay on a 15"x24" steel plate at 50 yds. A Sterling was incredibly easy to keep on target at 25.
A FAL in FA is a tough beast to hold on to and on target (at least for me).
On an M60, M240, M249 belt fed goodness one can learn to work the trigger for controlled bursts. I haven't had a chance to work those beyond 100 yards though so I can't personally comment on how well they work in staying on target out further.
What Hollywood shows with anything dealing with firearms is nowhere near any reality, FA is no exception.
Oh, for fun, I've had opportunity to fire MG34, Bren, PPSH41 and 43 (? correct versions?), Mac 11 (9mm), Ma Deuce and a couple others. Didn't really evaluate accuracy but they were all fun. Mac was a spray hose and given size and shape hard to get a good handle on. I enjoyed the PPSH ones and they were fun to shoot.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

In 11 years in the army, I can count the times I have used the 'happy switch' on my M-16 on one hand. Minus a couple of fingers. If you are really running as a squad, the job of the rifles is to support and plug holes for the heavy gun. When there is a full-auto job to be done, I want the SAW or the 240 to do it.

Pretty much this ^^ word for word. We would also use full auto at roadblocks.

 

[Owen]

MP5-SDs are totally usable on full auto. No problem with keeping multiple hits on target at 50+ yards. But that weapon is a standout in many ways...

 

[IndianaBoy]

I'm not .mil but I have had some trigger time on M-16s in various configurations including a 6.8 SPC.

Full auto in a mag fed gun is a great and noisy way to rapidly deplete a pile of perfectly good ammo. It was very difficult to keep them on target at anything beyond near contact distance (10-20 yards).

Belt feds would be a completely different ball of wax. But firing an M16 completely cured me of any desire to save up the amount of money that they cost. And belt feds add another zero onto the cost of legal machine guns.

Suppressors and to a lesser extent SBRs occupy my NFA desires now.

From what I understand, the highest of the high speed trigger pullers in the military use their HK/FN/LMT AR variants on semi-auto 99% of the time. To me that was a big clue as to the practicality of an M-16.

 

[SuedePflow]

You also burn through a 30round mag a lot faster than in hollywood.

Heard that. I did a mag dump in a Glock 18 last fall. I'd have to check the camera to be sure, but 33 rounds went downrange in roughly 1.8 seconds. I get a kick out of the movies that show a guy dumping a 30-rd mag in full auto for 10+ seconds.

Although my favorite Hollywood perception is how a "silencer" makes firing completely silent.

 

[Coop45]

Full auto is a quick way to run out of ammo before you run out of enemy.

 

[Bubbles]

MP5-SDs are totally usable on full auto. No problem with keeping multiple hits on target at 50+ yards.

Good point, that's one of our most requested rentals because it's very controllable and ammo isn't too pricey.

The P90 is also controllable, just not cheap to shoot.

 

[mbogo]

Except for fun, suppressive fire, or shooting everyone in a confined space (phone booth, toilet stall, closet, elevator, very small room), a full-auto would not be my first choice.

Three-shot burst? I'm in.

mbogo

 

[taliv]

all full-auto ARs are not the same. it took me a while to sort it out, with combination of muzzle brake, buffer, gas etc, but I finally got mine where it was actually very controllable. some seem to be worse than jackhammers.

i don't have much use for it anymore, but i will say a 22lr conversion kit (back when 22lr was 550 rounds for $12) is an awesome way to spend an hour

i'll also say hollywood seems inexplicably intent on straight up stupidity when it comes to FA. notably, the stories above are from people who probably are proficient with guns, firing from a proper position and aiming. movies seem to always show firing at hip level but not actually braced at the hip, and in some wack stance like they're riding a horse or something.

in the "least controllable" would probably be the mac10. horrible ergos, no sites and 45acp with very high ROF. mine was a ton of fun, but geez. you couldn't hit a thing with it.

"most controllable" would have to be my m60 in a tripod with T&E

people keep telling me how controllable the P90 was. I shot one a little at a range in FL that had a rental and wasn't super impressed.

 

[mboylan]

It takes a couple thousand rounds or more to get decent at full auto burst fire depending on the gun. I can assure you that full auto can be extremely accurate with practice.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

In the movies with a submachine gun, you can mow down dozens of people and shatter acres of glass without reloading. In Where Eagles Dare Clint Eastwood even "dual wielded" and destroyed vehicles with the MP40. In reality, a submachine gun magazine empties in around 2.5-3 seconds.

In very limited experience (a couple of visits to a rental range), full-auto fire can be accurate with some skill and the right gun. I squeezed off 3-5-round bursts from a MP5 and made mostly one-hole groupings at ~10 yards.

 

[zignal_zero]

OK, the funny things that stand out to me in movies are (1) how long a mag lasts. Not just in full auto, but I saw Steven Seagal fire 22 rounds from his 1911 with a flush fit mag, before reloading. This bothered me because S.S. is a weapons guy in real life and should've put his foot down, set the director str8, and DEMANDED they allow him to do some mag swaps. (2) If you hold the trigger down, in F/A, then pivot from side to side extremely far in each direction, you will take out four enemies that are standing shoulder to shoulder.

Now for real life. As for rifles I have only fired one, it was an old worn out M16A1. I'm hung up on what one poster said about all M16/AR's not created equally because I might have a totally different opinion of F/A rifles if the one I fired was equipped with a better buffer and spring. You could HEAR its ROF increase during a mag dump. I did not get to use it for long. If I did, I might've became proficient with it. As it was, I did not even at close range, the majority of shots after #2 were off target. ON THE OTHER HAND, I use a SWD M11/9 equipped with a Lage MAX11 upper using the "Tactical" bolt which runs @ 750 RPM. That gun is nothing short of AMAZING. I can drop doubles or triples on multiple targets. I can also switch it to semi and hit torso targets at 100 yards. Now I DID have an Eotech on it, but I was out shooting my friends who had AK's with irons at 100 yards. That's with an SMG in 9mm that has a 6" barrel.

If I had more time with the rifle and more F/A rifles to try, my opinion might be different, but as it stands now - I prefer semi auto in a rifle and full auto in a subgun

Oh, one more thing to consider - even tho I can drop triples on each target with my SMG, that means with a 32rd mag I will only get 10-11 pulls of the trigger. So, even if yer good at "burstin", you need to shoot it with the same mindset as you would a low cap handgun because after that 10th squeeze, it's time to reload

 

[we are not amused]

My view of Hollywood gun fight scenes is about the same as the special effects of Sci-Fi movies. Any resemblance to reality is purely accidental.

 

[smkummer]

Close range such as in a building or suppressed fire are 2 uses but as stated most other times it will be a waist of ammo. Even 5.56 ammo has to be rationed because you can't shoot like it is endless if you have to carry it. The M4 does a great job of replacing a SMG. Unfortunately, Hollywood continues to influence many including lawmakers. Getting it right or correct doesn't sell as many movies as hip, flash or make believe.

 

[Outlaw Man]

I think it's a lot like when a single 9mm knocks a guy backwards three feet when he's running full speed.

Some movies do a decent job, I think. The bank scene in Heat, for instance, isn't just a single guy mowing down dozens of bystanders with an M-16 from the hip. Most of those rounds served little purpose beyond keeping people's heads down.

 

[Armymutt]

I've used the SAW for reflexive fire drills and it tends to stay on target from the shoulder, if you shoot it in 3 round bursts - which is really what we tried to do when shooting it at any target. I don't think I would go cyclic with it on my shoulder though. From the bipod, it doesn't move, so you could keep it on target as long as you could withstand your eyes watering from the burnt powder. My STEN Mk2 doesn't climb much either - probably because the bulk of the weight is way out in front. The mags on those could be used a club in their own right.