Full electronic 4473 didn't go so well.

[CapnMac]

And of course that E 4473 is not being stored in some other data base they claim doesn't exist.

Well, there will be an electronic version of the Bound Book on the FFL's premises, pretty much required under law.

The big box store may have their info "on the cloud" along with all the sales receipts and the like--whether that's "legal" or not is a different question. (That would not be in a location on the premises of, or secured by the FFL, and could very well be a FOPA violation by the big box stores.)

Remember that the 4473 =/= NICS check. Those are separate things entire (for most States).

 

[GBExpat]

Have done it electronically twice and it seemed to take longer to do it that way than my filling out the paper form.

Interesting.

My first experience was at a Cabela's 5 years ago when the guy handed me a Tablet. The screen-size was less than ideal, the font-sizes were less than ideal and, since I do not "Text" on my smartphone, I was unfamiliar and uncomfortable with running the touch screen virtual keyboard & controls. I put on my bi-focals so that I could read the diminutive text (my "bifocals" = 2nd set of Cheaters over the 1st set of Cheaters ) and completed the form. Not a very comfortable experience and it took about as long as a manual 4473 (perhaps a little longer), but I HATE filling out the 4473s by hand, so ... <shrug & smile>

RKGuns has a computer system setup; large display, keyboard & mouse. HOORAY! I can slam thru that form with a KVM workstation. Fast and easily legible.

 

[dogtown tom]

Of the three firearms retailers here in my local area that use electronic 4473's, they're all different, so I think the problem with a particular store's electronic 4473 has more to do with that retailer's software implementation of the process. Though I do prefer the paper 4473 - I can whiz through that pretty much with my eyes closed. I suspect eventually all licensees will be required to do their 4473's and their bound books electronically to make it easier for the BATF to audit them.

I've been paper only since 2008. But because customers just flat don't read the instructions right above each question, much less the instructions on the back four pages.....I'm going to an electronic 4473 by the end of this year. The electronic 4473's won't let the customer skip those questions.

Literally. Every, Freaking. Day.....I have to point out that a buyer skipped Question 18a. Which is both sad and funny. I've highlighted in neon pink or neon orange the "Both 18.a. and 18.b. must be answered". I also have signage and counter mats with the same message. I should start charging double for failure to answer.
People leave middle name blank, even when they have one. Same with cadence (Jr, II, III. etc)
People lie on the form to "make it match what's on their drivers license".
People write "USA" where it asks for "county/parish/borough".
People will answer every Yes/No question the same without reading any of them.
People get confused by any question regarding immigration.
People don't leave blank the question they should when they are a citizen or lawful resident.
one in ten thinks "oh they changed this form again!" as if ATF changes it every week/month/year
At least 25% think "there's a trick question", then don't read the questions.


If people had to complete and sign the 4473 and hand it to the ATF.........ATF's head would explode with all the felonies. Felonies being committed by the buyers answers not being "true, correct and complete".

Yes, fail to answer any of those questions accurately and completely and then signing that Form 4473 means you are in violation of federal law.

 

[wiscoaster]

Well, there will be an electronic version of the Bound Book on the FFL's premises, pretty much required under law.

?!? Effective now? My Mom 'n Pop's LGS Bound Book is paper (I've seen it on the counter).

 

[Hunter 08]

Back in the summer of 2017, I filled out an e4473 on a iPad tablet. It went fine. Had to remember the spelling of the city I was born in, never knew they were going to be THAT specific. But it went well no issues. The issue you probably had was with whatever machine you were using.

As Steve Wozniak said, Never trust a computer, you cannot throw out the window.

 

[herrwalther]

My preferred LGS/FFL offers both paper and electronic 4473. I always opt for the paper version.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

Mostly recently I’ve used paper, but i’ve used electronic a few times and it wasn’t a big deal.

 

[Elkins45]

I missed out on a $399 Mini 14 at Walmart a couple of years ago because the signature pad wouldn’t work. They said they would hold it for me…they did not.

 

[Insignificant bill]

I just bought another rifle from them last week. I have an LTC and they still do an NICS check. Got out of there alot quicker than the last time. Over 2 hrs but the manager gave me a 30% discount for the hassle. This is in Tx where an NICS check isn't required for me.

 

[gwpercle]

Just imagine all the red tape and time it's taking some small country (being pounded by the Ruskies) to get a tank or surface to air missile .... Talk about forms , red tape and wasted time ...
Might want to count your blessings ... you cold have had a 10 day waiting period after all the red tape was taken care of .
Look in the cloud ... everything is stored in the cloud
Gary

 

[alsaqr]

I used the tablet at Dunhams and a laptop at Cabelas. And desk top at Walmart. Both worked well. I like it better than the paper ones.

Have bought guns at Cabela's using the electronic form. Never had a problem, i like it.

 

[CapnMac]

Effective now?

I was thinking in the IT sense of it. Drop all the tablet(s) data onto the local network. And, I'd probably label the network volume Book or some such.
Under the law, you could print the pages and have them bound and dump the electronic files.

The Electronic BB is going to be a lot easier to search if the Nice People ask you about records.

 

[dogtown tom]

?!? Effective now? My Mom 'n Pop's LGS Bound Book is paper (I've seen it on the counter).

Licensees can choose to keep their records on paper or electronically.

 

[wiscoaster]

Licensees can choose to keep their records on paper or electronically.

OK, thanks.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I've been paper only since 2008. But because customers just flat don't read the instructions right above each question, much less the instructions on the back four pages.....I'm going to an electronic 4473 by the end of this year. The electronic 4473's won't let the customer skip those questions.

Literally. Every, Freaking. Day.....I have to point out that a buyer skipped Question 18a. Which is both sad and funny. I've highlighted in neon pink or neon orange the "Both 18.a. and 18.b. must be answered". I also have signage and counter mats with the same message. I should start charging double for failure to answer.
People leave middle name blank, even when they have one. Same with cadence (Jr, II, III. etc)
People lie on the form to "make it match what's on their drivers license".
People write "USA" where it asks for "county/parish/borough".
People will answer every Yes/No question the same without reading any of them.
People get confused by any question regarding immigration.
People don't leave blank the question they should when they are a citizen or lawful resident.
one in ten thinks "oh they changed this form again!" as if ATF changes it every week/month/year
At least 25% think "there's a trick question", then don't read the questions.


If people had to complete and sign the 4473 and hand it to the ATF.........ATF's head would explode with all the felonies. Felonies being committed by the buyers answers not being "true, correct and complete".

Yes, fail to answer any of those questions accurately and completely and then signing that Form 4473 means you are in violation of federal law.

Yeah the question about being an unlawful user of narcotics would bust a LOT of people because they seem to think if they have a medical card its "legal"... Under federal law you cannot use MJ and own guns. period. end of sentence... So my question is if someone answers NO on the question, do we as an FFL get in trouble if something happens later on and they were using the gun in an illegal manner and they find out we sold it to them? Because they signed a legal federal document stating they weren't a user of narcotics and we did the NICS/FBI check on our end and they didn't seem shady or suspicious...

 

[wiscoaster]

....So my question is if someone answers NO on the question, do we as an FFL get in trouble if something happens later on and they were using the gun in an illegal manner and they find out we sold it to them?

I don't see how you're supposed to know it was a lie in the first place, so I'm pretty sure the answer is "NO", but I'm not a lawyer.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I don't see how you're supposed to know it was a lie in the first place, so I'm pretty sure the answer is "NO", but I'm not a lawyer.

That's what I was getting at, like I would have no knowledge of their drug usage or lack thereof, so we should be legally clear on that part. Anyway, I'll leave it at that before I get thread locked for straying to far off topic.

 

[Sistema1927]

I have noticed one difference between the various electronic versions and the paper 4473, and that is Citizenship.

Being a dual citizen, on a paper 4473 I can record both US and Canada, but the electronic versions only allow one response.

 

[davethedog]

The last firearm i bought was in 2016 so i guess electronic is the norm now. The three employees didn't seem too familiar with the process so it was probably an employee problem. The "proof of ownership" with the gun and purchase info was still handwritten though.

 

[dogtown tom]

..... So my question is if someone answers NO on the question, do we as an FFL get in trouble if something happens later on and they were using the gun in an illegal manner and they find out we sold it to them? Because they signed a legal federal document stating they weren't a user of narcotics and we did the NICS/FBI check on our end and they didn't seem shady or suspicious...

I've had that happen.
Idiot came in, filled out the 4473, gets denied by NICS. I give him the NTN# and instructions on how to appeal as well as the consequences of failing to appeal. Eight or none months later I check with him to confirm that he did appeal........"Uh no, FBI wouldn't tell me why, I'll reapply tomorrow". Knowing that the FBI is required by law to tell the reason for the denial within five business days I told him that a storage fee began that day.

Three months later I check in again......"Oh yeah, the FBI sent me a letter about that last month". Turns out he had been on a probationary period for a deferred adjudication when he tried to buy the gun. He had been charged with possession of marijuana or other drug and had a one year period to keep his nose clean. When that year expired, the FBI sent him the approval on his appeal. Thats why the nitwit waited so long he knew he wasn't going to get his appeal until after his period of deferred adjudication was up.

The problem is....he committed a felony the day he answered no to two of the questions on the 4473. Not wanting to get crosswise with ATF I called my IOI and asked "he committed a felony when he lied on the 4473 last March, but the FBI says I can transfer.....true?" My IOI said "The USAO does not accept those types of charges".

Right then I knew the only point of the 4473 was to bury a dealer. I charged that little snot $350 in late fees and regret not charging him more.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I've had that happen.
Idiot came in, filled out the 4473, gets denied by NICS. I give him the NTN# and instructions on how to appeal as well as the consequences of failing to appeal. Eight or none months later I check with him to confirm that he did appeal........"Uh no, FBI wouldn't tell me why, I'll reapply tomorrow". Knowing that the FBI is required by law to tell the reason for the denial within five business days I told him that a storage fee began that day.

Three months later I check in again......"Oh yeah, the FBI sent me a letter about that last month". Turns out he had been on a probationary period for a deferred adjudication when he tried to buy the gun. He had been charged with possession of marijuana or other drug and had a one year period to keep his nose clean. When that year expired, the FBI sent him the approval on his appeal. Thats why the nitwit waited so long he knew he wasn't going to get his appeal until after his period of deferred adjudication was up.

The problem is....he committed a felony the day he answered no to two of the questions on the 4473. Not wanting to get crosswise with ATF I called my IOI and asked "he committed a felony when he lied on the 4473 last March, but the FBI says I can transfer.....true?" My IOI said "The USAO does not accept those types of charges".

Right then I knew the only point of the 4473 was to bury a dealer. I charged that little snot $350 in late fees and regret not charging him more.

Wow what a rollercoaster... I would have refused to sell the gun to him anyway for lying to you...

 

[kje54]

My LGS uses the electronic version as do all the big box stores here. The only problem I had was operator error, I put my birth date in wrong, keyed in 1945 instead of 1954. Had to do it all over but all my info was still there and all I had to do was change the date, just took an extra minute.

 

[AzShooter1]

I've bought a few guns from my local Sportsman's Warehouse and have had no troubles with the e 4473.

My handwriting is terrible so I like the tablet style. I've been typing since high school and have no troubles.

 

[Old Dog]

While I prefer the paper 4473 (I can complete one in about 45 seconds these days), I am getting used to doing the dang form electronically.

Both my local Sportsman's Warehouse and Bi-Mart force me to do 'em on tablets, which this dinosaur is adapting to. Another LGS has laptops on its counters, with an actual mouse, and keeps my identification (name/DOB/POB) and address data ready to pre-fill (which I've approved since I'm a regular customer).

I really have no preference. Alas, since I-1639, we have a waiting period now (for everyone, regardless of CPL or LE for handgun and semi-auto purchases) so a few extra minutes in the store make zero difference when you can't walk out the door with your new toy.

 

[PzGren]

ATF Form 4473 has to be retained for at least 20 years by the licensed dealer. Electronic copies of 4473 and of the bound book could become a great and easy source to build a national database. Traditional bound books and 4473 would need to be entered manually into any database and it would take decades to do so at the working speed of the agency.