Funky Situation

[tyeo098]

To make an incredibly long and painful story short, I was convicted of a misdemeanor (not domestic violence) and put on 1 year probation. Before this time I had 3 rifles and a handgun, and probation peoples advised me to either sell them or hand them in to the police. I am a resident of Virginia who was attending college in Florida. (ATF dual-residency ftw)

So I "sold" them to my grandfather (no money, only bill of sale with values), who was also a resident of Florida, and I moved back with my parents in Virginia, losing my FL residency status.

My grandparents drive up though VA to go to NY for summer vacation, and I understand that since we are no longer residents of the same state (right?) that the guns have to go though an FFL for me to get them.

Now my dad is talking of driving our motorcycles down to FL on vacation, and taking a (auto)train back.


...how do I get my guns back?
Do they have to go though an FFL in VA or FL?
Would it be economical to do a FL FFL and bring them back?
Or ship them to an FFL here?

 

[JohnKSa]

They will have to be transferred to you via an FFL in your current state of residence.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You should have loaned your firearms to your grandfather, who could then simply return them to you, no paperwork & no effort when the loan period was over.

Are you sure you sold the guns to your grandfather and didn't loan them to him?

If you are sure you sold the guns to him, they will have to be transferred to you via an FFL. Handuns via an FFL in Virginia only, rifles via an FFL in either Virginia or Florida.

 

[zoom6zoom]

No money changed hands, sounds to me like gramps just was keeping them safe for ya.

 

[ArtP]

If there is no paper trail that has been seen or copied to anyone but your family, I'd be inclined to get them off loan with your GF.

As a side note I'm a little surprised to hear that probation advised you to get rid of them. I can't think of a legal reason to not be able to keep them during your probation unless it was specifically ordered by the judge. It sounds like their "advice", as you put it, has no basis except their desire to make up terms as they go along.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Are you over 21?

 

[OldMac]

If no money or other compensation changed hands, you didn't sell them. Did you tell gramps to keep them for you or did you gift them to him. If the intent was to gift them without compensation then he now owns them and you will need an ffl to get them back. If you took the time to draft a phony bill of sale and then failed to collect, that sounds like a sneaky way to fool your case officer into thinking that you transferred them without actually doing it. Without more info, it sounds like they are still yours. Intent is everything. Don't worry about trying to fool the folks that may have been misleading you about selling them unless you provided them the bill of sale as proof of transfer.

 

[NavyLCDR]

As a side note I'm a little surprised to hear that probation advised you to get rid of them. I can't think of a legal reason to not be able to keep them during your probation unless it was specifically ordered by the judge. It sounds like their "advice", as you put it, has no basis except their desire to make up terms as they go along.

A lot of states prohibit the possession of firearms as part of probation, even for misdemeanors. That certainly did not mean the OP could not OWN firearms and simply have someone hold on to them temporarily. Huge difference between possession and ownership. I agree with you: "It sounds like their 'advice', as you put it, has no basis except their desire to make up terms as they go along." Especially their advice to "hand them in to the police." Yeah, right.

 

[tyeo098]

I had filled out a Bill of Sale with my grandfather to prove to P&P I had gotten rid of them.
And while he and I both know he was just holding on to them while I was under, would the fact that I filled out a bill of sale make a difference?

I am 20 now.

 

[bearcreek]

Depends who knows about the bill of sale I would think.

 

[ArtP]

My FFL will transfer multiple long guns with one handgun on the same "ticket" for $40.

If after reading the thoughts of the members here, you're still uncertain, see if you can find a FFL in VA to transfer them at a reasonable price. Then you can escape the nagging fear that you may have broken another law.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I am 20 now.

Then you can't have the handguns transferred through an FFL until you are 21.

 

[Bubbles]

I had filled out a Bill of Sale with my grandfather to prove to P&P I had gotten rid of them.
And while he and I both know he was just holding on to them while I was under, would the fact that I filled out a bill of sale make a difference?

Assuming that you showed it to someone in authority (P&P, judge, etc) then yes.

I am 20 now.

You can get your handgun back when you turn 21. Your grandfather can drop the guns off at the FFL for transfer to you when he comes north.

Also, given that you have a record, expect a delay on your background check. You will want to find an FFL who will be willing to transfer the guns to you after the three business days if the VSP doesn't call back, and not one who will insist on holding the guns until he gets a response.

 

[HankB]

Assuming that you showed it to someone in authority (P&P, judge, etc) then yes.

It's not so much who you showed it to, it's who has access to a legitimate (notarized?) copy of it.

 

[Griffin2020]

Why couldn't OP simply ask if Granddad would gift them to his father? Then his father could then either gift them or "sell" them to him.

Be assured that I am not advocating violating the law in any way.
I am also not a lawyer, and am not certain of what VA law is.

I do know that in Texas (my home state), a Father can gift a weapon (rifle or handgun) to his son.
By that reasoning, GF could give to F, F could give to OP.

 

[tyeo098]

There is a photocopy of the BOS in my file in Orlando.

Thats about it.

As for the delay on NCIS, VA State police does the check, not NCIS.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Why couldn't OP simply ask if Granddad would gift them to his father? Then his father could then either gift them or "sell" them to him.

Be assured that I am not advocating violating the law in any way.
I am also not a lawyer, and am not certain of what VA law is.

I do know that in Texas (my home state), a Father can gift a weapon (rifle or handgun) to his son.
By that reasoning, GF could give to F, F could give to OP.

As long as the father was also a Virginia state resident, and the grandfather gifted the guns to the father through an FFL....

 

[tyeo098]

It's not so much who you showed it to, it's who has access to a legitimate (notarized?) copy of it.

The lady who made the copy asked if I had a CWP since I owned rifles.
When I said you do not need one to own firearms she asked if they were registered to me.

She knew NOTHING about gun laws (FL or Federal!)

 

[Willfully Armed]

I don't condone blatant disregard for federal law...but, just bring them home and don't think twice about it.

 

[Griffin2020]

I guess that is what I do not understand. My Father in law and I were recently advised (by an FFL holder) that FIL could gift a handgun to his son (who was visiting from North Carolina), and the son could carry the handgun back home without requiring the services of an FFL.

I guess that is what I do not understand. If the weapons are hand-carried from FL to VA, then why does an FFL need to get involved?
According to the NRA, here is the Federal Statute that say Granddaddy can give him the guns without the use of an FFL:

Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor`s state of residence.

Federal Gunlaws- Cite from NRA

 

[JohnKSa]

My Father in law and I were recently advised (by an FFL holder) that FIL could gift a handgun to his son (who was visiting from North Carolina), and the son could carry the handgun back home without requiring the services of an FFL.

The FFL gave bad advice. If anyone acted on that advice at least one of them, possibly both of them committed a federal felony. I wouldn't post about it on the internet any more if I were you.

A person can not transfer possession of a firearm across state lines (from a resident of one state to a resident of another state) without involving an FFL. The only exception would be if the guns are willed to a person in another state or inherited by a person in another state. i.e. If a person dies he can leave his guns to an heir in another state and that transfer does not require an FFL.

According to the NRA, here is the Federal Statute that say Granddaddy can give him the guns without the use of an FFL:

That is not what that statute says. The meaning of "bequest" and "intestate succession" both involve the death of the person making the "gift". Granddaddy can WILL him the guns or he can INHERIT the guns across state lines, but Granddaddy (while still living) can't simply GIVE them to him across state lines without involving an FFL.

 

[Bubbles]

I guess that is what I do not understand. My Father in law and I were recently advised (by an FFL holder) that FIL could gift a handgun to his son (who was visiting from North Carolina), and the son could carry the handgun back home without requiring the services of an FFL.

NC also requires a handgun purchase permit before a resident can obtain a handgun. http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NCSL.pdf

 

[NavyLCDR]

I guess that is what I do not understand. My Father in law and I were recently advised (by an FFL holder) that FIL could gift a handgun to his son (who was visiting from North Carolina), and the son could carry the handgun back home without requiring the services of an FFL.

I guess that is what I do not understand. If the weapons are hand-carried from FL to VA, then why does an FFL need to get involved?

FIL violated Federal law, 18 USC 922 (a)(5):

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides;

Son violated Federal law, 18 USC 922 (a)(3):

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,

The FFL who advised you to do the transaction without the FFL transfer could be convicted of conspiracy and/or abetting the commission of two separate felonies and needs to be properly trained.

I did not post the exceptions to the above Federal laws, because none of them apply.

Source:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

The three biggest sources of misinformation regarding firearms laws are LEOs, CCW Instructors and gun store operators/employees. None of which should be consulted for legal advice.

 

[Griffin2020]

Wow. So much for open borders within the boundaries of the USA.

I apologize for my lack of knowledge, and for my assumption that anything to do with the right to keep and bear arms as granted to us by the Constitution would be simple.

 

[mgkdrgn]

My FFL will transfer multiple long guns with one handgun on the same "ticket" for $40.

Not to someone who is 20 years old they won't ... at least not the handgun anyway.

That said, having an FFL handle this as a "transfer" is probably not a bad idea. If you are in the system as a "prohibited person", best to find out now and get to work on getting yourself "un-prohibited".