Further discussion with jfh re practice load similar to Speer .38 GDSB +P

[loplop]

I thought I'd drag this one up for a bit more discussion, as I'm currently working down the path of recreating this load for practice. First of all, thanks to all on this thread for the invaluable information. It has been extremely helpful as a starting point!

I have on hand: AA#5, Unique, Bullseye, and 2400. I bought 38+P and 357 brass (Starline). I have focused so far on loading in the 38spl cases, although I am not opposed to loading 357 if that's where I need to go.

Bullets: I have some of the Hornady 140gr TC lead "Cowboy" bullets. I am loading to Hornady's specified OAL of 1.450". These bullets, as mentioned previously in the thread, have no cannelure so crimping can be an issue. I have found if you roll crimp them, accuracy can suffer. So this time I applied a taper crimp. Good idea/bad idea? I don't know but at least I didn't have any OAL changes when firing. I am using CCI small pistol primers.

Yesterday, I shot the 6.4, 6.5, and 6.6gr AA#5 loads, back to back with the factory loads. Instead of using my M&P340, I took my Mod 27 simply because I felt like shooting it (she's a newer acquisition).

For me, even the 6.6 loads were substantially less stout than the factory GDSB +P loads. Perhaps these are closer in "feel" in the super-lightweight snubs? Perhaps my choice of bullet, and the lack of a firm roll crimp, is impacting this?

I'd be happy to entertain any thoughts. I don't want to simply keep upping the powder, if I'm close to max to begin with. I may try to load some of these bullets in the same manner in 357 cases if I move to more powder... Of course, then, the load points change.

 

[jfh]

loplop: Some quick answers:

1. Some more reloading data for the GDSB135-JHP has shown up--Handloader, April 2008 (March?) did a reload article. With an LOA of 1.470, they run the load from 6.8 to 7.2 gr. From a 3" model 60, that got the GDSB135JHP running to 930 fps. (I don't think this article is online anywhere yet, unless you are a member at the Handloader site.)

As for MAX loads--well, there are a few issues to consider:

1. The SAAMI 38+P spec is 18,500 psi.

2. Speer uses 20,000 psi as its standard for GDSB loads. That standard, BTW, is what was used in this "replica" reload development.

3. The European standard (CIP)--has no 'standard' and '+P' split; the max pressure in PSI for 38 Special is 21,750. FWIW--I believe that standard was implemented at least 20 years ago. It has me wondering if Revolver manufacturers like S&W & Ruger vary their metallurgical standards for shipments to Europe, or whether they use a cheaper steel / alloy here. Personally, I don't think so....

Are those Hornday bullets swaged, and not cast?--I don't know them, but I find what little I've shot with Hornady or Speer swaged does take about two-tenths more, I think.

As for crimp--I do use a moderate roll crimp, and for these kind of practice rounds, I do not build for accuracy--i.e., the tweaking of either charge weight, crimp, LOA, whatever--tends to make them less of a "replica reload."

About that recoil: I suspect that, between your bullet selection and your lower-charges to date, you are still on the lower side of the GDSB38+P ballistics. As for recoil comparison in the 27--well, if you run the momentum / foot-lbs formulas, I suspect you will note that a nominal 5% drop in recoil in a 13.3 oz revolver is quite a bit more when that same round is shot from a (nominal) 40 oz. revolver.

Sounds like you are moving along in the right direction, though.

Jim H.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Jim,
It is the April 2008 Edition of Handloader. (issue # 252)
The reloading data for the 135gr Speer Gold Dot SB rounds is on page 21. (the article starts on page 20) I was very happy to see the author was using the same exact charge in one of his loads of AA#5 that I settled on. (6.8gr) I guess I'm not so dumb after all!! LOL

 

[loplop]

Thanks for the thoughts. I am not yet a member of Handloader, it sounds like I should look into it.

Yes, these Hornady bullets are swaged lead. I can take a photo later this evening if you'd like. They are FP bullets with the "crosshatch" pattern on the sides, no cannelure. I have a hard time figuring out how much roll crimp to apply to bullets like these; if it's visible to the eye, I'm certainly cutting into the bullet. That's why I tried the taper crimp.

Perhaps I'll go back to a roll crimp and just try not to cut too deeply into the bullet. If I do this I'll dial back to 6.4 again and work up; I bet the pressures will go up (comparatively). Once I work through this box of Hornady's, I'll look for another brand.

I don't worry too much about the gun strength, since the M&P340 and Mod 27 are 357's they should be fine... But the brass, yes, that worries me at the top ends of these charges I haven't seen any signs of overpressure, though. No sticky extraction, primers look totally normal.

I will say this: I really like AA#5! It flows so well through my Hornady powder thrower. A joy to work with, especially compared to powders such as Unique.

 

[jfh]

loplop:

Unless you are committed to Hornady, buy / order some good cast bullets. Chey Cast, MasterCast-IL, and Penn Bullets all have 140-gr. bullets. Chey Cast and MasterCast have BHNs of about 15, and that hardness level obdurates well with loads at these pressures in my S&Ws. Penn, OTOH, does Hard Cast (BHN 21-22), and they are good for driving harder and faster--not necessarily needed for this kind of load.

I found .358s work the best, with least leading--but you might want to try some .357s as well and see which works the best in your M&P340.

Depending on the brass brand and its previous usage, you don't need to worry about it, IMO. I have both used 38 Specials I bought some years ago, and a new(er) supply of Starline, and none of either set is showing undue wear at these 18-20000 psi uses. I will mention, however, that some of the used brass and some of my new / once-shot major-brand cases that were from the softball target loads do seem to be thinner, and I segregate those.

As for sticky extraction--that hasn't shown up in my guns until the nominal 45,000-plus pressure range--in other words, beyond 357 Mag MAX pressures. And, primers are similar--they may be progress in flattening, but even the primers I shot in my overcharge incident last summer showed no piercing, no leakage, and little cratering--and they were used at something like 55,000-72,000 psi.

About on-line / for-pay reloading resources: I've found Handloader to be of mixed value to me. If you are interested in historical data, it has it in spades, of course. But the search engine was slow and clumsy the last time I tried it. The written publication, OTOH, is of value.

OTOH, Ammoguide is of value to me--even with my limited reloading interest. It is easy to use, has good tools, and has a massive repository of loads in it.

Jim H.

 

[loplop]

Great info, Jim. I'm not committed to Hornady, per se, I just found a box and grabbed them. I do really like their XTP bullets, but they are significantly more expensive, and since I have no real need for a HP, just a waste of money for me.

I will research some lead. Maybe I'll go for the Penn's, as I could run them in 357, too. I really like the magnum loads in my Mod 27. Not so much in the M&P