Further discussion with jfh re practice load similar to Speer .38 GDSB +P

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Jim,
I also ordered 2 boxes of Remington 158gr LSWC/HP rounds as a base. I'll be testing rounds made with HS-6 and post the results. (as soon as the weather cooperates) I charged 6.3gr, 6.5gr, 6.6gr, 6.8gr and 7.0 gr. I think the 7.0gr might be a little on the hot side even for a +P round but I'll test them all in my M640 so it should be fine.
 
I just did the in-depth "replica reload" testing yesterday, now that I have the Rem rounds at hand.

About 6.0 gr. of #5 does one version, using the cheaper local 158LSWC bullet. 5.8 to 6.0 of SR-4756 also does it with the Speer 158LSWC-HP bullets. AA#5 works good, but not the best--SR-4756 is smoother; it really does look to be "the" powder for short-barrel 158-gr. loads.

These are NOT the Speer #8 loads (obviously), and they feel very similar to the 135-gr 38+P GDSB loads--as they should, given Stephen Camp's reports of 800-820 fps for the Rem 38S12 from a 2" j-frame.

Now I'm off and running to find the 357-case equivalent--or a little hotter.

I'm also more than ever convinced that those powders that run from about WSF on up through V.3N37 on the Hodgdon chart are the powders that work for short-barreled revolvers--with an emphasis at the lower end--at least for 38 Special ballistics.

More later--

Jim H.
 
Range Trip -'replica' load for the Speer 135gr GDHPSB +P

jfh and ArchAngelCD:

I received the Chey-Cast bullets yesterday afternoon. It took about a week to receive them after ordering on the internet.

I think the powder/recoil effect with the AA#5 and the 140gr LTCFP vs. the factory .38 spec. 135gr Speer GDHPSB +P is so similar as to be indistinguishable.

So I commend you, jfh, and ArchAngel CD, for the work you have done and enormous time you must have spent in settling on this one powder for the replica load.

The Speer SB cartridges came from 50-rd. boxes, #53921, and I believe they're usually distributed to LE. Whether they differ in any respect from the 20-rd. boxes readily available to the public I do not know.

What surprised me was that after shooting 5.8, 6.0, 6.2 and finally 6.4gr AA#5, I came to the conclusion that the factory round is still stouter than the 6.4gr handload, but not by very much-perhaps .1 or . 2, so I'm thinking about 'upping' the dosage by .1 grain increments. I'm wondering if this is inadvisable because I don't know the maximum charge for the load. The factory had more 'bite' to the recoil, more power, than the 6.4gr loads that I tried-about 25 of those loads.

I'm thinking it might be prudent to compare 6.4, 6.5, 6.6gr AA#5 with the factory Speer 135gr. GDHP +P in a K-frame solely for purposes of felt recoil and to "be safer". When appropriate load has been determined, I could shoot one or two of them in the 442 and check for any difficulties. (I don't have any sc or ti .357 snubbies).

I did shoot 50 factory rounds and about 75 'clone' progressive reloads. That's a total of 125 cartridges in +P in my S&W 442-2 J-frame Airweight revolver rated for .38 spec. +P.

The Speer factory round shot better to POA, but I did not aim as carefully with the reloads and did not really compare the two re POA/POI all that much-I probably should have observed differences with more vigor; however, I was checking for felt recoil and was concentrating on that factor. Live and learn. I think the handloads shot a bit to the right more (I'm left-handed). Shooting distances were 7-~12 yards.

Looks as if I'll have to do some tweaking. Next range session will be this Monday, as I have to see my gunsmith there on another matter.

Thank you for your continuing input and support.


CAVEAT: Everyone proceeds at their own risk and should determine what is appropriate for their firearms, and their own health and safety. I'm only relating my experience in the above post(s)-your experience may differ, and what may work in any of my loads and firearms may not work in yours safely. Always check published manuals and loads before proceeding in any reloading endeavor. What I post may not even work safely in my firearms as I'm tinkering and experimenting with unpublished information at times.

As an aside on rubber grips for the J-frame 442-2 Airweight
:
Went to the range tonight and shot 50 Speer .38 spec. 135gr GDHPSB +P, and about 75 test 'clone' loads. That's 125 +P loads.

We're talking about significant loads, up to about 20,000 psi.

Pachmayr Compac Professionals-PAINFUL after 2 rounds of the Speer. Great for concealment, though. Immediately took them off after only 2 shots and switched grips to the

Pachmayr Compacs- PAINFUL. After only 3-5 rounds of the Speer I switched grips again. The Compacs are a bit bulky for concealment. The grips are very attractive, fit my hand perfectly, and give the impression of a 'smooth, unpainful ride' re recoil. Notwithstanding the above, they were surprisingly disappointing in the felt recoil realm. YMMV.

Hogue Monogrips- Are manageable with the recoil. I like this grip the best for hot loads. A bit of a compromise for pocket carry, but can be done in a Mika or Nemesis.

The Hogue Monogrips 'win out' over all the other rubber grips I've tried concerning recoil. Those grips include the Pachmayrs' above as well as the UM boot grips, and the Hogue Bantams.

The only others grips I'm considering might be the Tyler-T's. They should certainly conceal well enough, but what about my hand from the recoil of round after round of +P for practice? Are +P hot loads 'manageable' with the Tyler T's? I STILL don't know the benefit from buying them, except to fill the gap between the frame and the trigger guard (already exists with the rubber grips) and a more secure grip on the firearm.

One can compromise for concealability:
I am of the view that one should practice with the same grip used for carry. But I've been unable thus far to find a completely suitable concealment grip in which my hand can take the pounding incurred in practice with numerous +P loads.

As a compromise, I guess that one could practice only with the Hogue Monogrips and carry with the Pachmayr Compac Professionals or one of the boot grips. With practice, one should have a proper sight picture, so whether one uses another grip should not upset that sight picture. One must consider and weigh the remote possibility of ever having to pull the gun-nevermind actually shoot someone, with the benefit to one's hand and enjoyability that shooting with the better grip will afford.

One can always do a lot of dry-firing with the carry grip, also, sighting in all the time.

But I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion of using different grips for practice and carry.]
 
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Just found this thread. Very interesting, thanks for posting detailed reports. It seems several of us have been trying to improve on 158 gr. loads for use in light frame revolvers :)

I've been playing with some loads for 158 gr. jacketed bullet, but am not sure about expansion at 800-900 fps. Is there a proven jacketed performer in this range? There several reports out there, but they tend to cover either higher velocity ranges or lighter bullets or lead. I'd be particularly interested in any data on expansion of Speer 158 gr. GD's (link) and Remington 158 gr. SJHP's (link) around 900 fps. Your thoughts and pointers would be much appreciated.

Mike
 
brentfoto,
I'm glad to see you are getting the same results Jim and I have gotten. It looks like using AA#5 to replicate the Speer 135gr round will work as a practice round for you too.

If you decide to replicate Speer's Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel .357 Magnum round I have a recipe for that too. :D
 
ArchangelCD-

No, but I might want to replicate the FBI load for fun, using SWC bullets in 158gr.

Which powder(s) for that replica load?

Prompt response appreciated.
 
I'm testing FBI replica loads with HS-6 right now. I haven't been able to get to the range to Chrono any of them so I can give you details yet.

Also, Speer's recommended MAX charge for AA#5 is 7.0gr so you aren't pushing the limits with a charge of 6.8gr AA#5.
 
No, but I might want to replicate the FBI load for fun, using SWC bullets in 158gr.

Which powder(s) for that replica load?


I use 5.3gr -5.4gr of Unique under a Hornady 158gr SWCHP, shoots great in my M10 at 10yd.;)


P1200033.jpg
 
And to add to this discussion:

For Brentfoto:

1. I am not surprised that you might want to tweak the load a bit more. It's the "each revolver is different" observation. This is probably a product of the variations in gaps at the cylinder / barrel junction. FWIW, my 340 (1 & 7/8" barrel) generally runs about 30 fps faster than my 640 (2 & 1/8" barrel)--and, AFAICT, that's strictly a function of the gap--i.e., my 340 is assembled to tighter tolerances.

2. I've been told by Speer that the CCI LEO 50-round boxes contain the same ammo as the Speer 20-round consumer boxes.

As for that final recipe tweak: Well, the Speer PDF 38+P / 135-gr. JHP data does run out to 7.0 grains. The reloader's 'rule-of-thumb' is that lead bullets typically run to the same pressure with about five-tenths less charge--so you probably are in the same pressure range. For that matter, give the typical plus-or-minus one-tenth grain tolerances to scales, you have the latitude to go higher.

Since I use a 357-frame j-frame, I have run the load up to 7.2 grains--but then ESs opened up and SDs widend, so I backed up.

I have shot this reload through my 686P 4" --40 oz.--as well--and in a revolver that size, its recoil is mild.

3. About grips--like you, I've tried various grips--but really, only on my M60 / 3". I've always kept a boot grip on the 340, which is my usual carry gun. Since the grip on the 340 is the Crimson Trace LG-405, it does have a recoil pocket over the backstrap and that also makes for a larger grip

I just installed the Hogue rubber monogrip on the M60 a few days ago, and shot it for the first time that way--prior to that, I'd had both Compac grips on it, like you--and cared for neither of them, although the larger (standard? covers the backstrap...) version worked ok for me. At any rate, I agree--this is about the best grip I know of for recoil control if one is willing to sacrifice the boot grip size.

4. If you were able to shoot 100+ rounds from your 442, I'd say you already have a well-conditioned hand. So, adjust your load as needed to fully replicate the Speer factory round and practice away--now you can concentrate on your shooting skills. Use the Quad Five as your guideline, and don't worry about groups smaller than five inches for now.

If you want to condition your hand further, you might want to change out to a boot grip and stay with that until you can shoot two quad fives back-to-back (disregard the reload time) and still feel ready to shoot again.

Meanwhile--don't you get a real feeling of satisfaction about being able to practice for about $6.00 a box of ammo instead of $26.00 ?


hoptob / Mike: About 158-gr. hollowpoints: I just reviewed Speer's comments about their Short Barrel bullets in the #14 manual--and they do NOT include the 158-gr. bullet. I take that to mean that one will NOT obtain optimal expansion at velocities at which 2" barrel revolvers typically operate--for the moment, let's call that between 700 and 900 fps.

That velocity range is the one at which a bullet like the 158-gr LSWC and LSWC-HP bullets penetrate deepest. Add in cold weather factors like additional layers of clothing to plug up hollow points--and you get the idea. I know I decided to carry 158-gr LSWC-HPs for the winter up here. Note that neither ArchangelCD and I are using jacketed bullets, however, Mike. At these velocities, I would rather use the LSWC / deeper penetration approach.

Speer also makes a swaged 158-gr. LSWC-HP, available from Midway. I've also tried the Hornady equivalent, and that appears to lead a bit more than the Speer version.

I went to the range again and extensively tested the 357-lite version of the Rem 38S12 ammo--e.g., "the FBI load" but tweaked to provide the same recoil as the factory 38+P load when built in a 357 case. To my surprise, AA#5 works well--but with the typical 357 Magnum caveats of much flash and blast. (The 140 LTC loads flash, but have no blast.) This might be a function of the lube of my cheaper local 158-gr LSWCs--I'll try the Speer 158LSWC-HPs once I get the subjective recoil sorted out.

So, ArchangelCD is chasing 900 fps with HS-6 and the 158-gr. bullets; I'm chasing 850 fps with a number of powders, but probably SR-4756--and since I can't chrono right now, I'm focusing on subjective recoil.

In summary, then: For 158-gr. practice loads in lightweights, I would work on using LSWCs and try to match the Remington 38S12 ballistics. Stephen Camp reports those as being about 805-820 fps from a 2" airweight.

For carry, there are those astounding Buffalo Bore rounds--the 20A(?), I believe--that are 38+P+s--e.g., they run over 1000 fps from a 2" barrel. I chrono'd them at 1020 fps from the M&P340. They were shootable, but it's a stout, stout load.

Jim H.
 
336A: I keep hearing about unique for this kind of load--but when I tried it off the Speer PDF sheet (e.g., with 140 LTCs or with the Speer GDSB135JHP bullets), I found wide ESs and low velocity, so I set it aside. In #14, Speer limits Unique to 5.2 gr. to keep within their 20,000 pressure limit, and when shot from an M15 / 2" they report 834 fps.

What length barrel on your M10?

Do you have any chrono results?

Jim H.



Do you have any chrono results with
 
336A: I keep hearing about unique for this kind of load--but when I tried it off the Speer PDF sheet (e.g., with 140 LTCs or with the Speer GDSB135JHP bullets), I found wide ESs and low velocity, so I set it aside. In #14, Speer limits Unique to 5.2 gr. to keep within their 20,000 pressure limit, and when shot from an M15 / 2" they report 834 fps.

What length barrel on your M10?

Do you have any chrono results?

Jim H.

JFH I don't have any chrono data I wish I did.:( However before loading up those rounds I got good feedback from folks more knowledgable than I. If I had to take a SWAG I'd guess that I'm getting about 950 FPS for the 5.4gr charge weight. I know of one fella that chronographed the 5.4gr charge with the same bullet at 983 FPS from his 4" M15. I have found Unique to work very well with lead bullets.

Brian Pearce did a review of the 135gr GD in the latest Handloader Mag, he also got very low velocities with Unique just as you did. I'm a bit dumfounded that this powder performs so poorly with this bullet. In the excellent article Mr. Pearce wrote up on the .38/44 a few years back, he listed some .38 SPL +P data for readers to compare to .38/44 data. The Unique loads with the 125gr bullets were actually quite stout.

BTW the barrel on my M10 is 4".
 
ArchAngelCD I'm testing FBI replica loads with HS-6 right now. I haven't been able to get to the range to Chrono any of them so I can give you details yet.

Also, Speer's recommended MAX charge for AA#5 is 7.0gr so you aren't pushing the limits with a charge of 6.8gr AA#5.
Today 04

I'm just about out of AA#5. It's amazing that the Dillon Powder Measure on my SDB is throwing this powder so consistently, and I'm below the built-in baffles at this time. Talk about running low!

So I need to order some more for the replica loads, and that is why I also inquired about powder for the replica FBI load (I need to place an order for powders forthwith!).

Thanks for the info.

Point of clarification: When you say the max AA#5 is 7.0gr, that recipe is for the actual Speer GDHP bullet.

I'm reloading lead TCFP.

How did you come up with a max of 6.8gr for me? Curious.

Thanks!
 
"...How did you come up with a max of 6.8gr for me? Curious."

The most conservative rule of thumb is to stay about five-tenths grain below a jacketed bullet MAX load, Brent. Lots of us also believe you can safely use the same data for both types of bullets, if it is not a firewall-type load.

Well, if you are ordering powder, get AA#5, and try a pound of HS-6 and a pound of SR-4756.

Jim H.
 
jfh-

Went through your detailed post, above, and thank you for your remarks.

The Pachmayrs come in an assortment of flavors. Compac Professionals have the open backstrap. They were terrible for recoil, but great for concealment.

The Compacs have the closed backstrap. I actually thought they would be the best rubber grips of all. But I did not like the felt recoil with them. They are the next in line up from the Compac Pros, but the grip is rather thick so they're a bit bulky for carry. That, combined with the poor recoil experience, has led me to discount them entirely for carry or range. It's unfortunate because they're beautiful grips. YMMV. I have them listed WTS: in the classifieds.

I think the next step up may be the Grippers, Gripper Decelerators, and the Presentation grips. The Pachmayr website has a FAQ's section which pretty accurately describes the various recommended grips in relation to consumer needs.

http://pachmayr.com/pachmayr/index.htm


I agree with you and others in saying the Hogue Monogrips are the best J-frame grips you can buy to reduce the effects of felt recoil.

I'll just have to change over to the Monogrips for range sessions. The rest of the time I'll probably just carry in a Mika or Nemesis with the Compac Professionals and hope that I never have to shoot anyone due to the felt recoil with those grips and for other reasons. ;)

BTW, don't know meaning of :

Quad Five
firewall loads

Sorry!

Range trip tomorrow! Shooting 6.4, 6.5, 6.6, 6.7gr AA#5, with the lead 140TC.
 
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Thanks for detailed response, Jim. There is indeed very little available data on expansion of jacketed bullets in 700-900 fps range. 135 gr. Speer GD-SB is the only exeption I know of. But looking at these bullets, especially Remington SJHP's, I just find it hard to believe they won't expand well.

bullets.jpg

Left to right are Remington .38spl SJHP 110, 125, 140, 158 and 180 gr. and Speer .38spl 158 gr LSWCHP. I mean, just look at this huge exposed lead dome! Of course looks don't proove anything. I guess I'll just have to find a secluded pond and fire one of these into 4-5' of water to be sure :)

Good that you guys are going after replica FBI loads on steroids. In the meantime, I'll get jacketed bullet going at 800-900 fps from a snub and we can compare the notes. I'll be using 4756 first and switch to Unique if needed.

Interesting comments on the grips, Brent and Jim. I too tried many available grips and ended up with Pach Compac Pro on 442, stock U.Mike on 640, and Hogue mono on SP101. Why? I guess they just "look good" :)

Mike
 
I can only comment on the 442 with the Pachmayr Compac Pros. They look nice and conceal well enough so that I feel comfortable with them in a pocket holster. It ends there, unfortunately...:fire:

jfh apparently recommends building one's hand up no matter the grip. I would consider doing so but 'fear' that within a few weeks, or a month or more without practice, all gained would be lost.

It's practice with +P with the Monogrips-no 'if's' 'ands' or 'but's' about it, but I feel uncomfortable carrying Monogrips in a pocket holster unless pocket is quite deep. (BTW, Monogrips are also great for the K and L frames).
 
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Brent,

I am 100% with Jim about need for grueling recoil practice to shoot snubs well. It took me about 1000 rounds of first mild and then full house 357 mag rounds shot from 640 to get used to recoil. Not to blow my horn, but now I can shoot them rapidly and accurately strong or weak hand. Once earned this skill does not go away easily - more or less like learning to ride a bike.

FWIW

Mike
 
The 640 is a steel frame, is it not? So it might be easier, even with .357 with the stock UM boot grip.

Have you shot the Speer .38 spec. factory 135gr GDHPSB +P in your 442 equipped with the Pachmayr Compac Pros? If so, have you shot 50-100 of them in a range session?

It's not the recoil itself that I'm having difficulty with-it's the discomfort to my hand. I had to actually shake my hand after a few of those rounds with the Pachmayr Compac Professionals.

Perhaps one can acclimate, but with the Monogrip, it's considerably more comfortable.

The Compac Pros 'look' good enough. They provide a solid, non-slip grip, but I don't like the 'feel' of them all that much in my hand. They feel on the 'rough' side with that checkering. OTOH, this helps in maintaining a solid grip. But I get the feeling when sighting in with them of an old Peggy Lee song entitled, "Is that all there is"? Am I weird, or what? :what: Maybe it's the hour that I'm writing this post. The Compac Pros make my hand feel somewhat unassisted, almost out there alone. However, I really like the improvement in concealability when comparing them to the Monogrips.

BTW, my 442 weighs 15.0 oz. equipped with the Hogue Monogrip. That's a tad less than with the stock UM boot grips.
 
brentfoto,
The M640 doesn't come stock with UM Boot grips, it comes with UM Combat grips which are a little longer. I replaced the Combat grips with Boot grips on my M640. I practice with both the M640 and M638 which is also a 15oz Airweight.

When I practice I use the UM Boot grips but when I test fire many rounds I change over to Pachmayer Gripper Grips. I wouldn't carry with those grips because they are very large but they are great when testing 100 rounds or more.

I have found I like the Uncle Mike's Boot grips better than the Hogue Bantam grips. For sore reason I just like the feel better and I have bought a few spares from S&W because I don't think they will be available much longer.

hoptob,
I agree the design of Remington's Jacket should allow for expansion. It looks like those "cutouts" should allow the mushroom to flatten easily. I'm sure they will expand at 900 fps without a problem.
 
If I had to choose between the Bantams and the UM boot grips in consideration solely re felt recoil, I would choose the UM's too.

I already sold my UM boot grips so I ask you this:

Have you shot the Speer .38 spec. factory 135gr GDHPSB +P in an Airweight equipped with the Pachmayr Compac Pros? If so, have you shot 50-100 (or equivalent loads) in one range session with those grips?

Have you shot the Speer .38 spec. factory 135gr GDHPSB +P in an Airweight equipped with the UM boot grips? If so, have you shot 50-100 (or equivalent loads) in one range session with those grips?

How would you compare the UM boot grips to the Compac Pros re felt recoil (and pain) assuming all questions are answered in the affirmative?
 
There's a LOT of good commentary and chitchat in this thread, isn't there?

hand conditioning: While it still is not extensively laid out the first posts in this thread, the whole notion of developing "replica reloads" and then adjusting the load charges to provide for lighter recoil is my attempt to address the physical conditioning and the related training issues of "muscle memory," etc., etc., to make one a proficient shooter.

When I started last summer, my hand was woefully out of shape. I could shoot softball DEWC loads more than once--but at the end of qualifying for my carry permit (which I did with those in the 340; the 640 was at the 'smiths), I didn't even want to shoot for a day or two.

As I started shaking out the 38+P 135-gr. replica reloads, my hand kept getting banged up (knuckle on the trigger finger, thumb web; bruising on the thumb heel), and it took about two months to get calloused enough to avoid raw skin. As that occurred, my hand started getting stronger. I mixed shooting the 640 (CT-305 grips) about 80 percent of the time with shooting the M&P340 (CT-405 / boot grips) about 20% of the time.

The tingling in my hand continued to decrease. By September I was able to shoot the Buffalo Bore 20A loads with no trouble in the 640, followed up with the five shots in the 340, and I could have reloaded. So, we can now segue to

Grip selection: While this is highly personal, I also think that the use of boot grips (maximum concealability) on a revolver designed almost exclusively for concealed carry (lightweight DAO j-frames) is the most suitable application. I've followed DAdam's use of the Monogrip on his j-frames, and I don't really agree with it because of the extent to which it limits concealability. Further, from what I can tell with my various experiments in grips on these different j-frames (M&P340, 640, M60/3" and 442), the larger grips will inhibit hand conditioning. In short--the tingling will disappear, Brent, when your hand is conditioned fully, and it will get conditioned faster if you shoot with a boot / combat grip.

I think that approach--setting up the most appropriate carry gun, then using the practice-replica reloads routine in the context of "successive approximations" is better than shifting the grip later and having to relearn different "muscle memory" for the grip. Doing the latter takes a LOT of shooting, I think--at least for those of us who are not pros.

Even with the minimal shooting I've done this winter (maybe 600 rounds a month), I've maintained the callouses and the strength. In fact, the 225 rounds or so I shot last Saturday--in about a hour and a half, with three different guns--didn't even leave my hand sore, at all. Hoptob is right; it's a bit like bicycle riding--as far as the muscle memory goes, at least.

Meanwhile, of all the grips I've put on the M60, the Monogrip looks the best, I think and it works very well with my hand size. Since the M60 is strictly a fun / range gun and I acquired it to get chrono data from a 3" barrel, I'll set that one up for comfort.

Hollow Points: You know, I hadn't really thought about those Remingtons--and I think I even have some on hand (in lighter weights). Meanwhile, I am about to place an order with Mike at Mastercastbullets.com for his 158LSWCs--which are, of course, cheaper than the cheap ones at my LGS, unfortunately, and probably are better. However, the lower BHN of the local bullets might come closer to the characteristics of the Speer--what do you guys think about that?--e.g., shooting a softer-cast LSWC.

I have figured out, however, that the Speers take about one- or two-tenths grain less powder for the same subjective recoil. Whatever that info is worth yet, I don't know.

Jargon definitions:

Quad Five: This term is my adaptation of a drill Old Fuff here recommends for carry guns:

Basic Proficiency is measured by shooting five shots in five seconds at five yards and in a five-inch group.

It's a wonderful drill--do it on a simple piece of paper, or a paper plate, whatever. Use "successive approximations" to make it fit with your conditioning. The five yards is easy enough to sort out, as is the five shots--that's a j-frame cylinderfull. Instead of a bullseye-type shot, try flash sight pictures and speed up the trigger time until the group is outside of five inches--then back up slightly. And / or, don't speed up the string time until the group size stays five inches or smaller. Don't be perfectionistic--settle for 80 percent, and stay at it.

Integrate it with lighter-weight practice rounds. You can push or pull on this model; just don't set too-high goals to begin with.

Once you can reliably do that--and your hand doesn't tingle too much--then try doing two in a row. (Ignore the reload skills; practice that separately.)

firewall: From automotive jargon--the firewall being the partition between the engine / front compartment and the passenger compartment. It refers to pressing the accelerator fully forward, to maximize power, and keeping it there--hence, in shooting, to build a MAXimum power load for a given caliber. SAAMI-spec loads are not "to the firewall"; there are margins there before the liklihood of catastrophic failure.

enough. The snow continues to fall, and I am going to sit by the fireplace and read a book. (That's a joke; I don't have a fireplace.)

Jim H.
 
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Have you shot the Speer .38 spec. factory 135gr GDHPSB +P in an Airweight equipped with the UM boot grips? If so, have you shot 50-100 (or equivalent loads) in one range session with those grips?

How would you compare the UM boot grips to the Compac Pros re felt recoil (and pain) assuming all questions are answered in the affirmative?
I have fired several Hundred Speer Factory 135gr .38 Special +P rounds through my M638 (15oz Airweight) with the stock UM Boot grips. I don't find it painful as long as I don't shoot more than 40-50 rounds. I had a set of Pachmayr Compac Pro grips for a short time but they were bigger than I wanted for conceal carry so I sold them. The Pachmayr grips I now have are Gripper Grips. They are the biggest grips Pachmayr sells. Sorry, I don't remember how different the Compac Pro grips felt compared to the UM Boot grips.
 
IMPORTANT QUESTION!! Does anyone have an alternate source for LSWC/HP bullets other than Hornady? Their bullets are knurled without a crimp groove and don't seem to be as accurate as bullets with a smooth side, grease groove and a crimp groove.

I bought a big box of them last year from Midsouth. I see the price has gone up a bit since then (I shoulda bought 2 or 3 boxes): http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00051515

Bob
 
Bob,
Thanks for the link, I'll probably order a box. How well do they shoot? I just got a box of Speer LSWC/HP bullets but haven't shot them yet. Have you compared the above bullets to Speer's bullets by any chance?

Thanks again for the link!
 
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