Further discussion with jfh re practice load similar to Speer .38 GDSB +P

[zxcvbob]

I've loaded up 100 of 'em using 4.5 grains of Unique and they shoot OK in my S&W 15. This is what I keep loaded at all times in one of my "house guns". I probably should have used 5 grains of Unique, but the data I had at the time said 4.5 was max.

I haven't chronied them, nor done any other ballistics tests, so I don't really know what the previous "OK" means. As far as accuracy, they only need to be able to hit a Bad Guy at 20' (or less) and I regularly target shoot with similarly-loaded cast bullets at 50' so I don't think that'll be a problem as long as they go "Bang".

 

[brentfoto]

Second Range Trip re 'replica' load for the .38 spec. Speer 135gr GDHPSB +P

Now I understand what 'Quad Five' refers to...
And, 'firewall'...firewall seems to be 'better than 50-50 chance of kaboom', yes? It exceeds max SAAMI loads, and closely approaches the max the gun can handle.

Tonight I'll shoot up to, perhaps, 6.6gr AA#5 140gr LTCFP in the Airweight. If that doesn't match the GDHP +P recoil I'll switch gun to the M65 4" K-frame for the remaining 6.7gr. load.

CAVEAT: Everyone proceeds at their own risk and should determine what is appropriate for their firearms, and their personal health and safety. I'm only relating my experience in the above post(s)-your experience may differ, and what may work in any of my loads and firearms may not work in yours safely. Always check published manuals and loads before proceeding in any reloading endeavor. What I post may not even work safely in my firearms as I'm tinkering and experimenting with unpublished information at times.

We shall see-6.4 was not a perfect match for me before. Maybe 6.5 or 6.6 might do it. I'd rather not have to switch to the K-frame. But I don't want to stretch the frame of the Airweight, either.

I've ordered 2 lbs. of AA#5. That should keep me for a while.

As to the FBI load, I may cook up up some of them. Awfully smokey round, though, in a range setting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd prefer to direct my attention more to investigating a replica load for the 9mm Speer 124gr GDHPSB +P, and/or the Fed 9mm P9HST2, which is a standard pressure duty load for a PD in my area. 'Carry what the cops use' for SD has some value in certain circumstances.

Regards,

 

[brentfoto]

Results-Second Range Trip re 'replica' load for the .38 spec. Speer 135gr GDHPSB +P

CAVEAT: Everyone proceeds at their own risk and should determine what is appropriate for their firearms, and their personal health and safety. I'm only relating my experience in the above post(s)-your experience may differ, and what may work in any of my loads and firearms may not work in yours safely. Always check published manuals and loads before proceeding in any reloading endeavor. What I post may not even work safely in my firearms as I'm tinkering and experimenting with unpublished information at times.

Well, I went to the range tonight with my 442.

Original recommendation for replica load while using the 140gr LTCFP was 6.4gr AA#5.

I had shot up to 6.4 the other day and thought the factory round stouter. I did shoot 6.4 again, tonight, just to be sure, and was of the same opinion.

So I went up to 6.5, 6.6, and 6.7. I did not have any loads beyond 6.7gr of AA#5, and did not shoot with the K-frame as I felt confident my 442 could handle the pressure. YMMV!

After shooting up to 6.6, I marked my card 'clone load' for that 6.6gr. load, but figured that I might as well try shooting 6.7 since I had 10 of them. Well, after comparing with only 4 or so factory rounds with that 6.7 load, I marked THAT 6.7 card 'REAL' clone. YMMV!

When I say 'clone' or 'real clone' I say so only with respect to felt recoil, the sound of the report, and the way the gun reacts to that recoil. 'Discomfort' is also considered, because as one is graduating up .1gr at a time it is difficult to gauge a clone load without a chronograph, and discriminate recoil from .1 increase to another. We're talking subjective findings here, especially in light of my lack of chrono data when firing at the indoor range, and no real POA vs. POI analysis.

Nevertheless, at 6.7 it seemed as if I was shooting the same cartridges. I say this because at that point I had staggered each cartridge of the factory and the reloads. I shot two four round cylinders at that point- 1 reload, 1 factory, 1 reload, 1 factory, and in reverse.

I need more factory Gold Dot! And I need to load up 6.6-6.8, inclusive, for further testing. This will require another 50-rd. box of factory.

Anyway, a third or fourth range trip will be necessary in determining MY 'true', replica load!

The third trip to the range will fine tune further, and I may go to my outdoor range and use the chrono. A fourth trip will be to confirm the results of the third.

Then I 'guess' that I'll have to load up a considerable lot of them.

Thanks and regards,

 

[hoptob]

Great post, Jim, masterpiece! I particularly liked your description of extraneous knuckles appearing exactly where you need them on the shooting hand. I call them badges of honor. Also learned from you post about 'Quad Five' - I shoot this drill but never knew it's called that.

Arch and Jim, turns out Remington uses 125 gr. SJHP in one of their 38spl +p loads - R38S2. Looking through my logs I discovered that I even chonographed it at some point! The load clocked 881 fps from 2 1/8" 640 and 985 fps from 4" GP100. I ordered some of 158 gr. SJHP's from Midway. If it's managable at 900 fps from Mx42 it may become interesting choice for SD carry.

Brent, I dry fire my 442 a lot but almost never shoot it. It's kept strictly for carry purposes. I was taught to practice with heavier loads in steel guns instead. As far as relative recoil goes, mid range 357 magnum feels about same in 640 as Speer 135 gr. in 442; full house 357 magnums (e.g. R357M1 or equivalent handloads) kicks A LOT harder. That's why I choose to practice with full house loads in 640. To answer your question, yes, I have shot 50-100 of those in one session. Does it help to shoot Speer 135 gr. from 442? I think it does - I do Quad Five drill with this combo under 3 sec from low ready. And it's really not as hard as it sounds. Just follow Jim's instructions above and you'll be there soon too.

As far as grip selection goes, I think it's a personal choice. My hands are medium small and I am comfortable with smaller grips like Pach Compac Pro. Guys with bigger hands may be better served with large grips.

Mike

P.S. Nice report, Brent. --M

 

[jfh]

the information exchange here is among the best I've seen in forums

At any rate, some more ongoing comments.

ArchangelCD: re 158LSWC-HPs I like the Speers better than the Hornady. As noted earlier, replication is about .1 or .2 gr below 158LSWC-358s in a softer lead. Keep us posted on your results, and let us know about the Magnus bullet.

brentfoto: At this point, my approach would be to drop the factory round comparison to save money, and spend the time on the acclimation and quad five shooting. There are two reasons for this--

1. You are "close enough"--if not perfectly on replication--and probably well within a normal range of variation. Variation, that is, on the normal spread of powder-measure drops, mass-produced bullet-weight, and the variances in lead formulations in different orders of bullets.

2. The discrimination you have now--while you are 'new' at this kind of training--is less than it will be after some extensive shooting while you are in this kind of mindset (i.e., of "successive approximations," etc.), and you need to develop the "muscle memory" that goes with the conditioning and grip size you are using. With additional conditioning and muscle memory, your discriminations will be finer / better.

For example, I was able to use 6.8 gr. as my clone load for some fair amount--perhaps 2,000 rounds or so. Then I got my 140LRNFP-358 order in from Penn Bullets. Those are extremely high-quality hard cast bullets--a BHN of about 22. (The Chey Cast 140LTC-357 originals were about 15, IIRC, and the Mastercast 140LTC-357 originals about 15 BHN.) The PB140LRNs required tweaking for crimp, and the 6.8 gr. recipe was now noticably "above' the factory round. Replica reloads with those bullets can easily be at 6.6 gr. in my revolvers.

So, in summary--settle in at 6.7 gr., or 6.6 gr. and shoot the reloads, and don't obsess over the "final" version 'cause it's gonna change as your hand and your skills change.

I will be really, really curious about your chrono results. I suspect that you will find the 6.7 gr. load is running about 860 fps or so. That's what it runs in my 442; in the 640 it runs about 880, and in the M&P340, about 900-910. My later tests had some wider SDs, but I probably had the crimping out-of-spec--I'll know more when I can test again this spring.

However, look out for the "tyranny of the numbers" phenomenon--i.e., you start tweaking to get accuracy or low SDs-ESs, or accuracy tweaks. The guiding principle for me remains "replication" for facilitating proficiency.


hoptob: Thanks for the compliments--but I really didn't grow extra knuckles, just the appropriate callouses.

During that two-month period, I basically had to keep bandages on with bacitracin on them to keep the skin soft enough to thicken. Even then, in September I had some trouble with skin cracking in the web. I imagine this is just the indiosyncrasies of personal body chemisty (I'm older; my skin is drier), but the point is, I did try to follow a regimen to build and maintain the callouses.

As far as those Remington hollowpoints go--once we get the loads sorted out, we ought to send them over to what's-his-name--you know the guy that's doing the extensive gelatin tests with carry guns. (He posts on THR; I have the link but am too lazy to look it up now.) I agree, 900 fps from a 357 magnum frame ought to be the goal. 38 frames should probably stay at 800+ fps.

FWIW, we had a solid 6'-8" of snow that ended by daybreak today--it's a helluva April Fool's day.

Jim H.

 

[brentfoto]

jfh-

Thanks for your general comments about the tenor of this thread. I agree wholeheartedly.

Right now, perhaps I will take your advise and forego even more of the factory rounds. I do get my box of 50, though, for less than $30.00, tax included, from my LE contact who is an FFL. That works out to about sixty cents a round. Still, with my cash flow, that's expensive. Even if I were not having such problems, it's expensive. And it's likely to only increase.

I'll just concentrate on the LTCFP reloads at 6.6 or 6.7gr in my 442 and will chrono them with the Chey-Cast bullets when I get a chance.

I don't have the light/lightbulb setup for chrono in an indoor range, and will have to shoot outdoors. The downside is that nearest target will be at about 25 yds. - range rules due to safety concerns at that club.

Will practice, practice, practice, and will start doing the Quad Five, but will have to do @7 yrds. due to indoor range rules, unless excused.

 

[brentfoto]

On another matter, there must be a world of difference in recoil shooting a 640 and a 442-there's a half-pound (8 oz.) difference (23 oz. v. 15 oz.)in weight between the two.

I just weighed my 442 empty with the Bantam grips - 14.3 oz. -so there's nearly a 9 oz. difference!

Monogrip for practice, Bantam for carry with the 442. That's 'my' ticket-YMMV.

 

[hoptob]

I really didn't grow extra knuckles, just the appropriate callouses.

Well, Jim, that would be a sight to remember. And 6' 8" of snow is a sight to remember for sure. Even for MN! We get snow in WA too - 1-2" at a time...

Excellent idea about gelatin testing. Are you thinking about brassfetcher? I didn't know he'd do it "for hire" but we certainly ought to ask.

Brent, agree that there is significant weight difference between 442 and 640. There is also significant differences between recoil of 135 gr. bullet traveling at 860 fps and 125 gr. bullet at 1250 fps Anyway, I am glad you found the grips that work for you.

Mike

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Again I'm faced with a disappointing day. The temps actually got way up to 68 degrees today but the rain was relentless so I couldn't shoot today even though it was a warm day. It's supposed to drop back down to below 40 degrees again tomorrow and the rain is going to continue. I have no idea when I'll be able to test these rounds, I really can't wait to pass them over a Chrono.

Jim,
Wow man....that's some Spring you are having. I was upset about all the rain that's been going on here but you are really getting hit I see. I guess it's not so bad here after all. (well, except for the flooding that is!)

Good luck digging out buddy.....

 

[brentfoto]

Thank you, Mike.

 

[jfh]

The ground is still covered here, but the warmup is on its way. The streets were plowed early--so they were dry. As a result, I made it to the (indoor) commercial range to test some more (FBI) replica reloads.

I've just about homed in on the charge weights for AA#5 (done, really), SR-4756 (done; see Mack Heath link); WSF, True Blue, and Silhouette. Keep in mind that there really are TWO generally-accepted charge weights for the SR-4756 recipes.

The 'standard' one, referenced by Mack Heath, is 6.3 gr. of SR-4756 under a 158LSWC-HP. This one, described as a (mild) +P+ load, is fairly close to the current Rem38S12 and Georgia Arms' 38E feel. 6.0 gr. under the Speer 158LSWC-HP is a more-precise equivalent, I think, for replica recoil. This slight reduction is probably a result of the factory ammo being built to nominally the current SAAMI 38 Special plus-P standard.

The 'upgrade' one, also from Mack Heath, is 6.8 grains of SR-4756 under the same bullet--but loaded to 357 Magnum length, or 1.590. Based on the "SR-4756" loads chronologies on the S&W forum, it appears this was a load built in the 1970s to provide 38-Special ammunition for Law Enforcement that provided 357 Magnum performance if their duty gun was a 38 Special.

Apparently there have been bullet redesigns since then to provide consistent seating depth--i.e., cannelure adjustments. Personally, I see no advantage to using 38 Special cases--and we all know the disadvantages--except for the kind of situation outlined above. It clearly is outside generally-accepted practices for our current time.

I've loaded the 6.8-gr. charge in 357 cases. It is this level of charge that appears to be the one that gets these bullets (or any 158-gr) running at about 900 fps from a 2" or 2.5" barrel. Given the historical load development of the 38/357 case, that's quite a jump from the nominal 38-Special ballistics of 755 fps from a 4" or 6" barrel, with a 158-gr. bullet, is its initial smokeless powder loading.

So, summarize--we really can consider two different levels of 158-gr. HP performance, one of which is suitable for the 38 Special / aluminum j-frames. And, beyond this, in the firewall ranges, are the Speer #8 loads and, in one fashion or another, the Buffalo Bore '+P+' 20A.

hoptob: How did you set up that 8.5-gr. charge, Mike? Was it loaded to nominally 38 Special (1.460) lengths, or to the 357 (1.590) length? Either way, you are a braver man than I am--so far.

Brentfoto: It sounds like you have right source for the CCI 50-round boxes. They are also available from Streichers, here. Like you, I pay sales tax, and I doubt shipping charges are cheaper than your deal--but at least it's an alternative source.

My experiences with shooting these j-frames exactly mirror Mikes--i.e., I bought the 640 for practice and load development, and the M&P340 for carry. At the level of conditioning I now have, I can shift readily between either gun--but the 220 rounds I fired yesterday in the 640 is beyond what I can do in the M&P340.

At the "basic proficiency" level, I can do quad fives back to back now with any of these loads we've been discussing in the 340. I doubt I could go beyond two with the Buffalo Bore load, however.

Jim H.

 

[brentfoto]

Great price with Streicher's. Can public buy this round from them?

 

[jfh]

"...Can public buy this round from them?"
​

Yes; I think a fair number of THR'ers now buy there, Brent.

Jim H.

 

[hoptob]

Jim,

Bullets were sitted deep, OAL = 1.425". I was using Montana Gold 158 JHP - it has cannelure band high up on the bullet.

I really don't think this is about bravery. I could be naive but just find it hard to believe that any damage can come to the gun before brass expands and extraction becomes sticky. Basically this is a "load development methodology" as described in Speer #8. Starting with #9 they changed corporate policy and added another confounding factor - loads were not to exceed SAAMI specs. They described this in detail in the introduction to load tables in Speer #9. The rest is history.

I am neither recommending nor advocating this approach. It just makes sense to me and I am using it for my own load development.

 

[jfh]

That's interesting about Montana Gold high cannelure.

Now, about that bravery--interestingly enough, I wasn't thinking in terms of pressure issues--just in terms of recoil, and the anticipation of it. I agree with you in general that I would be looking to issues of sticky extraction first.

However, in the one overpressure incident I have dealt with (17-18 gr. of AA#7 in a 38 Special case--five rounds; I shot all five of them), the first two cases were not sticky. Jerry over at Handloads.com estimated the pressure at 55,000 to 72,000.

That was in the 640, last July. The cylinder was damaged--stretched over each of the thinnest part of each chamber.

I do NOT read primers--that same incident produced primers with little cratering, some flow, and no punctures. And, my own questions about extraction include doubts about it as a reliable indicator, simply because of cleanliness issues--e.g., crud on the cylinder walls.

But, it does sound like you and I approach bigger loads with an eye to the same indicators.

Jim H.

 

[hoptob]

But, it does sound like you and I approach bigger loads with an eye to the same indicators.

It does indeed, Jim. I agree that there is no absolutely reliable, objective way to know when one is too close to the limit. We have to go with the preponderance of evidence, so to speak. I recall from your earlier very detailed and helpful description of the incident that 3 other cases were not happy campers. I would have thought that if you were intentionally working your way up to that 17 gr. load, you would have noticed that something was not right well before you reached the limit.

But then again, it's just a theory which may prove wrong at any time.

Mike

 

[hoptob]

For those of you, guys, who followed this thread - I posted an update on SR4756/SJHP ballistics in S&W forum. Here is a link.

Mike

 

[jfh]

follow hoptob's link:

His presentation is invaluable--it's the best elaboration of "FBI LOAD" data I know of, period.

Congratulations on some good work, Mike. I'm going to be testing my loads as soon as winter quits here and the road in to the pistol range is drivable.

Jim H.

 

[jfh]

Bump. This thread is just too good to lose in the background noise.

Jim H.

 

[DAdams]

Took Awhile

jfh, Brent, Arch, hoptob and company:

I just finished reading the entire thread. Now I need to reread it and strip the good stuff into a word doc for posterities sake.

I've followed DAdam's use of the Monogrip on his j-frames, and I don't really agree with it because of the extent to which it limits concealability.

My first J Frame a 642 came with the standard grips and straightaway I purchased a set of CT 405s. I found that any of the plus P avaliable and particularly as the .38spl Plus P debate on the 642 forum settled in on the the SGDFSB 135 PP and later some of the BB and more recently a resurgance in the COR BON 110 DPX, I have stayed with the SGD and BB 20C.

A year later I purchased the 340 and ordered it with 405s it was too good a deal to pass on.
I had a romance with the Hogue Mongrips for a few months but indeed did find that in many chinos the grip was excessive. I sure did like the way it tamed the 13 oz 340 and particularly with the .357 SGDFSB. Ultimately (six months or so ago) I reported on THR 340 thread I had switched back to the 405s and there I will stay. Maybe. I still have the urge though for curiosity sake to purchase the 305s. In the event they are too long I would probably opt to carry a couple of the other pocket buggers that I have come to know.

I know awhile back I told Jim that for Xmas I bought an LnL. Just to take advantage of the bullet offer. Unfortunately I tasked my son to place the order and he opted for the .45 JHP. I don't own a .45. But he does. Imagine that.

Also I am in the process of moving to TN where we will actually have the space (basement) and a winter forcing one into a man cave to pursue things men do in man caves. In this case acquiring the skill of loading.

Hence I am devouring all this information with great relish and am in my mentoring stage. Perhaps based on having nothing but the LnL, a scale, and micrometer so far, those of you knee deep in this could guide me with a list of required equipment and starter kit of cases, primers, powders, bullets to do 1000 each Plus P and .357 SGDFSB.
I won't be able to get into this in earnest until late fall and winter but am looking forward to developing the skill set and over the next few months ordering in supplies.

Dennis

 

[308win]

Need: powder funnel; some method of lubing cases (a pad and RCBS case lube has worked for me for 40 years) even though you will (I hope) get carbide sizing dies the lube makes things go smoother; calipers to measure case length and OAL. Although you shouldn't have much of a problem with straight sided pistol cases growing in length a case trimmer will occasionally be needed.

Nice to have: powder trickler, volumetric powder measure, hand primer, tumbler (this will eventually be a must have).

Order from a supplier who will ship your powder and primers on the same hazmat fee unless you are getting these locally. I have found that if I buy locally it is about a wash over what I save buying on-line by the time I pay the shipping and the hazmat.

You will need a sturdy bench with no spring in the top.

Enjoy

 

[jfh]

Let's look at the larger issues first--

1. Bench details: I'll leave that to the user--I'm going to assume that you will have a decent enough space to set up in. Likewise, for bench size and layout. My current reloading bench is only 54" wide--and it really works OK but is too small when one considers storage issues.

Two benches ago, I discovered that an ideal reloading bench could be build by using base cabinets (well-made ones, not fiberboard) topped with an extra-deep, extra-thick top. For example, over 22" deep cabinets, installing a nominal 1.5 to 2" thick top made of MDO or HDO and covered with a cheap laminate is strong enough to deal with the leverage issues. If the top is about 28"-30" deep, the presses are mounted outside the cabinets, and there is kneespace should you like to sit while working. This works very well for me--but then again, I am not reloading .50BMG, nor big magnum rifle cases in general.

The one construction detail to attend to is to build it level. The slightest pitch--particularly forward--will have an impact on the case alignment during die insertion, and it is a real PITA.

2. Presses: We don't need to get into the endless single-stage versus whatever discussions, nor the sequential-versus-batch processes. All press types have a place on most reloading benches. For people whose reloading is oriented to handgun cartridges and includes semiauto handguns, single stages are simply not productive enough if you value your time. Further, progressives are not a good press to learn on--there's just too much going on at once for the beginner to maintain adequate safety and QC.

So, in addition to your progressive, I would start with a turret. The Lee Classic Cast is currently the most popular one, I think--and for good reason: It can be used as a single stage or as an auto-indexing turret. So, I would get a Lee classic cast and begin with that--setup for two calibers, perhaps. Keep in mind that if you are interested in Load development--tweaking these "replica reload" recipes in limited runs--an auto-indexing turret is ideal, and a progressive is a PITA.

Your LnL is an excellent press, Dennis, so you have the production side of things covered once you get the basics under control.

3. Hardware: Recently, there have been very good threads written about the various needs--and particularly with the Lee Classic Cast as the press. Here is one such thread, and from that you can build your own buy list. When you get it built, Dennis, shoot it into a post in this forum and others will critique it.

Back on track--kind of: ArchAngelCD sent me an email last night after digging out the Pet Loads data on the 38 Special by Ken Waters. This is information developed during the Sixties, I believe, and it really represents the hiatus of load development prior to our current computer-physics-driven ideology. I'm going to look it over and see what to add to this thread, or to another one about short-barreled (revolver) reloading.

Jim H.

 

[hoptob]

This thread is just too good to lose in the background noise.

Yes it is

Could you please forward a link to the "Pet Loads..." thread? I'd be interested to take a look.

Dennis, if you think this thread is long, I wonder what do you have to say about this one? Keep in mind - it was 3rd opinion!



Mike

 

[jfh]

When we get a thread on Pet Loads data, you'll see it. AFAIK, the info may be available at Loaddata.com--i.e., the latest incarnation of the "Rifle / Handloader" publishing group.

Otherwise, look for a (printed) copy on eBay, maybe.

Jim H.

 

[brentfoto]

135gr .38 special Speer 'clone' load

I did chrono some loads on the 13th of May. No printer, so no SD, ES, etc.
But that has changed and I now have a printer. I may go out later today to chrono some more loads.

.38 sp. Speer 135 clone load:

6.7gr AA#5, 140 TCFP from Chey-Cast:

725, 769, 767, 739, 726, 760, 834, 803, 799, 811, 806, 788, 804, 803, 883.

Factory Speer 135 GDHP: 912, 910, 911, 894, 915.


Some other loads I chrono'd that day:

Win 125 JHP with 6.7gr AA#5:

814, 882, 883, 866.

Factory CorBon 110gr DPX:

1071, 1036

Rem factory 158gr +P (FBI load):

863, 885


regards,