G23 keyholeling with Factory ammo, thinking of giving up Glock

[nwmanitou]

Did a pistol match today. Sucked worse than last time. I've been having a lot of trouble hitting the target with my pistol. I can line the sights up exactly on target, sqeeze the trigger really slow, and it'll miss. Then I'll do the same sight picture on another target and hit it dead center. I've been practicing my trigger pull with squibs and dry firing. I just can't seem to get the gun to shoot consistently. This week I'm going to go sandbag it and see exactly where the sight picture places the round.

However, I have a new variable in determining whether it's the pistol or it's me. Today, nearly 15% of the rounds I fired keyholed through the target, at ranges as near as 5 yards. They went through the target completely sideways. I've been using the Winchester White box stuff from Wallmart. My friends were using it as well and had no problem. I'm getting fed up with this little pistol. I really like glocks for their ruggedness and simplicity, but I may sell it and go with a Walther P99 or something.

If anyone out there has had similar difficulties shooting consistently with their G23 and, particularily, have experienced keyholeing with factory ammo, I'd sure like to know.

Oh yeah, I bought the pistol Sept 11, 2001. I had ordered the pistol a few days earlier and it arrived that saturday. I know, odd coincidence. I was at the gun shop filling out paperwork just after it had happened watching the aftermath on the shop's TV.

 

[HighVelocity]

Sounds to me like there is a serious problem with your barrel. I'd have a gunsmith look at it asap.

Or, this may sound rediculous but I've seen it. Are you sure you're using the right caliber ammo?

A Glock 23 is a 40 SW and cannot fire any other ammo safely.

-Capt Obvious

 

[HSMITH]

Call Glock, get a shipping tag sent out and send it back!!!! They will fix it if it really is not right and send it back free of charge.

Don't give up on a good gun because only one example isn't quite right, if we all did that we would be shooting matches with a wrist-rocket. Every company makes a bad gun once in a while.

FWIW, WWB ammo is garbage, and could be a contributor. When you shoot it from a rest try a couple different loadings.

 

[larry starling]

Ditch it! And buy somthing else. Walther p99 are great pistol's, They seem to get great reviews on the various forums....

 

[shermacman]

Can we get a Glock vs. 1911 war started here?!

 

[Rockstar]

I don't see this as a 1911 vs. Glock subject; more a "novice vs. Glock or any other pistol he might be shooting" thread.

Obviously, 70% of l.e. wouldn't be using Glocks, if keyholing were the norm. If the pistol's actually keyholing with proper ammo, then Smith's advice to send the pistol back to Glock makes sense to me.

I wouldn't totally discount the possibility that 9mm ammo was used.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

Should have got an XD!

How bout a XD vs. GLOCK thread.

 

[pauli]

are you sure it was actually keyholing, and not just tearing paper off to one side?

 

[shermacman]

Pauli raises a good question. When the humidity is high, my paper target look like the bullets have keyholed. The test is to put a couple of rounds through defenseless Coke cans. Nice, neat round punctures.

 

[nwmanitou]

It was keyholing

we were using IDPA cardboard targets. My friend was shooting the same ammo from the same store. He had absolutely no problem with it. I think we had 8 people in our sqad shooting .45, .40, and 9mm. I was the only one not cutting neat little holes in the targets.The holes were definetly keyholed. I'm in the middle of Utah, it wasn't humid. The bullets were going in sideways. The SO (Safety Officer) joked that we could count the shots as two hits. I went through about 250 rounds, from 3 different boxes of the same ammo bought months apart. It was consistently keyholeing at least 1 per 10 rnds, and sometimes as many as 6 or 7 key holes in a 20rnd string.

I've been shooting, carrying, and performing maintenance on this pistol for almost 5 years. I'd say I'm pretty familiar with it. I have never mistaken any other round for a .40, though after the keyholeling I double checked the box.

I mentioned the Walther P99 because it is the pistol that a couple of my friends carry. One of them switched to it from a G23 and it seems to work really well for him.

Don't take me wrong. I Want to stay with my glock. I am just worried that there may be some mechanical failures in addition to whatever I'm doing to miss. I am going to sand bag it this week and use a few different brands of ammo.

Would glock actually fix it? Even though I've had it for so long?



Oh yeah, btw. Made a mistake in my memory. Sept 11 was a tuesday
I just checked my reciept for the gun ( I keep it in the case) I bought it on Sept 5. They didn't have it in stock so they had to order it. Said it would be in Saturday. Saturday rolled around and he told me that they had sent the wrong gun. Tuesday, my fiancee called me early in the morning and told me to turn on the TV. I watched the attack unfold. Then the gunshop called to tell me that my pistol was in. I borrowed a roomates car and drove down to pick it up.

 

[nwmanitou]

Additional information about the gun

I have never shot lead bullets from this gun. I have never shot reloads from this gun. I have only shot factory ammo through it. I think I shot a box of cci, once. Generally I shoot WWB and HSM when plinking and I carry Speer Gold Dot JHP in 165 gr. I'd say I have less than 3k rounds through it.

I have detail stripped it recently to do that .25 trigger job on it. That consisted of polishing a few parts. I did not dissasemble the striker. I also have a 3# connector and extended mag release. It has metroprolite night sights on it. I replaced the guidrod and spring with another factory rod and spring a couple months ago. Besides that and the grip stickers I have on it, it's stock.

I can't see any damage to the crown. I do not see any pitting or any other damage in the barrel or rifling. But then again, I'm not a gunsmith. Also, it could use a cleaning from this last match, there may be some damage concealed by the fouling.

I always thoroughly clean my pistol after each time I go shooting but we are in the middle of a move and my cleaning supplies are boxed up.

 

[Destructo6]

It may also be an ammo/twist rate problem. The Border Patrol was having problems with their 180grn JHP ammo keyholing at 15+yards though the Beretta 96, switched to 155grn JHP and the problem went away.

 

[nwmanitou]

I found a thread on www.ar15.com

that describes a lot of the trouble I've been having. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=13&t=18220&page=1

The winchester white box is brass jacketed, or at least that's the stuff I had. Seems as though some people have had trouble with this round being really inacurate. When I go to the indoor range I buy their HSM or blazer ammo. I've been able to double tap in the bulls eye with the stuff. I've been using the WWB because the matches I go to are usually 150 rnd minimum. I'm gonna be pissed if I was shooting so terribly because of the ammo . It seems that the glock's hexagonal rifling may have more trouble with the brass jackets than traditional rifled barrels. I'm gonna call glock and see what they have to say about it. Then I'm gonna go try some other ammo. If it turns out that it is indeed the winchester, I'm never buying it again.

 

[WarMachine]

This is slightly getting off-topic, but why doesn't GLOCK use traditional rifling in their barrels? Is there some special advantage to their current design? All of the after market ones use traditional styles so I was just curious...

 

[Dr.Rob]

Sounds like you need to send the barrel back to Glcok.

 

[pauli]

Is there some special advantage to their current design?

yeah, they can market it for another $50 or so on the retail price that way.

nwmanitou, the way i see it... you've got a 40cal glock, with problems stemming from the barrel. now's your chance to get a fully supported barrel with normal rifling.

 

[Longbow]

It might be cheaper to send it back to Glock and have them take care of it. I'm sure they would. Give 'em a chance.
Also, check your barrel for obvious defects.
How ' bout the rear rails? Are they intact? I ask because my friends G34 was keyholing when one of the rail got busted. He got one of those Glock recalls....err...upgrade.

 

[Majic]

Since you bought the pistol in 2001 how did it shoot then? Is this a recent problem?
Did you have backing for your target?
And the really big question....how well do you shoot other pistols?

 

[Zundfolge]

Sounds more like an ammo problem to me.

Some guns (individual guns, not just particular models) "like" one brand of ammo over another ... my Steyrs both shoot WWB nicely, but much prefer PMC.

Try some other brands of practice quality ammo before you give up ... you could also swap out the Glock Polyagonaly rifled barrel with a BarSto with regular old rifling (lot of reloaders swear by them).

If you like everything else about it but this keyholeing problem then it might be worth the investment in a new barrel.


Otherwise, there is a market for your used G23 so you shouldn't have any problem finding it a new home and getting something else.

 

[nwmanitou]

When I first got the pistol, I could cut the red out of the target fairly easily. It was an accurate pistol. I've noticed over the last year an increased inconsistency in my shot. Then I'd go to the range and zero it on paper. My shot would seem fine. When we'd head out to the pit to shoot or, lately, the pistol matches, my shot was erradic. It always bugged me that I could shoot more accurately with my friends Walther. The pattern I could deduce is that I was using the WWB when I went to the matches and the shooting pit, but I was using range ammo when zeroing on paper.

Saturday's match was the worst. The last match I noticed problems with my shot. Some were dead on, too many where off. The problem was I'd keep adjusting my sight picture for where the round hit. I thought I was jerking the trigger. This time around I'd sit perfectly still, resting my hand on the barrier on one stage. I'd line up the sights and target, then carefully sqeeze the trigger. I'd miss. Then I'd try again, and miss. And again, and miss. Finally I'd hit it. The next target I'd line up the sights dead on again, sqeeze the trigger and the bullet would hit center. It was after we noticed the keyholes that we became suspicious.


What's worse, is that everytime I had someone else try my pistol they had now problem hitting the target where they wanted.

 

[Majic]

What's worse, is that everytime I had someone else try my pistol they had now problem hitting the target where they wanted.

That sounds like no problem a factory can fix. Sounds like operator error. Another problem you have is sighting in with one ammo and shooting your games and plinking with another. Pick one ammo and after sighting in use that ammo for youor shooting. You can't sight in with one ammo and then go shooting with any old ammo and expect everything to hit to POA. Also chasing your shots on target will never get you anywhere. Shoot some white box ammo for grouping and accuracy or buy plenty of the range ammo for your other shooting.

 

[Navy joe]

Sometimes it's the gun, for example my Glock 9mm will shoot 147gr jacketed just fine, but will keyhole 30% of my 147gr reload using plated Berry's bullets. I figure that the very soft long bullet and the hex rifling don't play well together. Trouble is that same reload is pretty good in my Beretta and absolutely the most accurate thing I have ever shot from a Browning Highpower. So, consider not just the gun, or shooter, or ammo, look at them as parts of a whole.

As far as your shot consistency problem get an ammo you know works, stick with it and then work on your trigger finger. A Glock trigger more than some other pistols is a moment to learn anda lifetime to master.

 

[triggertime]

No offense intended, but this sounds like its a 90% trigger control problem and a 10% shoddy ammo problem.

My advice would be to have someone else shoot your gun at 5, 7 and 15 yards with a magazine of your usual carry ammo.

Then you shoot the gun with a magazine of the same ammo at the same distances.

If there is any disparity in the group pattern, you'll know its just you and that there is nothing wrong with the gun.

To be perfectly honest, dumping the Glock for a Walther P99 will not solve a trigger control problem. Overcoming shot anticipation (flinch) and mastering trigger control, follow through and trigger reset will.

 

[nwmanitou]

no offense taken

I spend quite a bit of time practicing my grip and trigger control. I use those snap caps and carfully watch the sights as I sqeeze the trigger. I also catch the reset when I shoot multiple rounds. For the longest time I've assumed that the problem was me. And it very well may be, however, after the keyholeing I became suspicious. I've also noticed a pattern. When I use ammo other than the WWB I seem to be on my game, when I use the WWB I can't hit anything.

 

[rick_reno]

Switch ammo for awhile and see what happens.