Gabe Suarez's Interactive Gunfighting in Manassas Virginia

[crucible]

There is politically correct and then there is legally stupid. You, my friend can tell your cell mates that you're in jail because you refused to be politically correct all you want. I imagine it will provide you with some comfort while you are serving your time.

Project much? You are as clueless as to my character, knowledge and ability as the moon is, on any subject; your comments assume a knowledge and foresight that you are clearly ignorant of.

The High Road indeed.

C-

 

[pax]

Gosh, crucible, that's getting awfully personal.

I think a re-reading of Jeff's post would show that he meant, if you (generic you, not you personally) follow Suarez' advice, you're likely to end up in jail.

Don't think there's any real reason to start huffing and puffing about that, really.

smince ~

Among all the things Suarez suggested you do after a shooting, did he include "getting the witnesses together to talk" about what everyone saw? Yes or no?

pax

 

[redsaber75]

Among all the things Suarez suggested you do after a shooting, did he include "getting the witnesses together to talk" about what everyone saw? Yes or no?

He made no mention of that when I took his class.

 

[smince]

No, not in my class, either.

I believe I told you what he suggested. I might add that I would get any family or friends to a safer area if possible before I worry about what condition the BG is in. Again, common sense, IMO.

We need an "Axe-To-Grind" smiley for threads like this.

 

[pax]

Interesting.

No axe to grind here, smince, unless trying to keep the good guys out of jail counts. *shrug*

pax

 

[Correia]

Does he still go downrange and stand next to the target while a student engages it, so that he can "remember what combat feels like?"

 

[autospike]

Correia,

I'm just curious, did you actually see him do that?

 

[SteveS]

Does he still go downrange and stand next to the target while a student engages it, so that he can "remember what combat feels like?"

Are you serious?

I appreciate this information. There are plenty of good trainers out there, so this helps in making an informed decision.

 

[Correia]

Nope, but there was a review of his class in SWAT magazine where he did that.

SWAT operates at a pretty high standard, and as far as I'm aware, they've never published a letter from him refuting it.

 

[buzz_knox]

My question is, does he still set up strawmen accusations as to the backwards nature of most trainers and demonstrate how he is so much more advanced? I refer, of course, to his rather infamous diatribe against trainers who only allow 1911s, hate AKs, refuse to allow students to move, etc., and his assertion that he was the first to break the mold.

 

[smince]

Nope, but there was a review of his class in SWAT magazine where he did that

Yes, he has admitted to doing that. But he has only did it with students that he knew were highly skilled. Do I agree with this? I wasn't there so I don't really know the reasoning why this was done. So I'll reserve judgement on this particular event (unlike others).

I have read that the man who wrote the SWAT story only stayed 2 days for a full week class, almost got in fights with students over FOF Airsoft drills, bragged about how they did it at Gunthunderfrontsiteranch and was a general pain in the rear. The students who were at this particular class have posted that they were glad to see him leave.

trainers who only allow 1911s, hate AKs, refuse to allow students to move, etc.,

I live reasonably close to a trainer who was formerly associated with one of the above ranges. He only teaches AR's in his carbine classes. Gabe will teach someone how to use what you have. I like that myself.

 

[pax]

I have read that the man who wrote the SWAT story only stayed 2 days for a full week class ...

From the editor of SWAT magazine, posted online at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2180365&postcount=2

First, actually the information you have is not entirely correct. It was not a 7-day class. It was two courses; a 2-day, followed by a 5-day.

The writer signed up for the two-day "Terrorism Interdiction Course." He stayed for both days. He showed up for and observed the first hours of the "Ultimate Combat Skills Course" (a class that he did not sign up for). Aaron made it clear in the article that he did not stay for the next five days as the training, in his opinion, was unsafe.

And so, while it's true that he did not stay for all 7 days, it's not true that he did not stay for the entire class he reviewed.

Buzz ~

I don't think that's entirely relevant here in any case; we're talking about what he teaches, not about how he advertises.

pax

 

[Correia]

Hey, I actually prefer AKs, and no I wasn't there.

But I can't honestly think of any good reason, ever, by any stretch of the imagination that would cause me to stand next to the target, regardless of how skilled my students were. And I am a firearms instructor.

Regardless of the writer/reviewer having issues with the class, the fact is, Gabe does, for whatever reason, stand downrange and let bullets fly past him.

I don't know what the justification is for this, but it stinks to me of a dangerous gimmick.

 

[30 cal slob]

interesting.

hope he stays alive long enough so i can sample a class ...

 

[smince]

As my sig line used to say: "There are at least two sides to every story, and the truth is always somwhere in between."

I'm out.

I feel a threadlock coming on at any moment, anyway.

 

[pax]

smince ~

That'd be Jeff or Ken's or Lawdog's call, not mine, but I don't see a threadlock in the works. Little bit of heat in this thread, but plenty of light too. We're all grownups here after all.

Soybomb ~

Which trainers have you looked at? Maybe start another thread to discuss possibilities. Pretty sure you'll find plenty of folks here who are willing to talk plainly about the training they've had and what was good or bad about individual classes or trainers.

pax

 

[brownie0486]

smince; crucible;

How did you like the In Quartata he presented?

Was there any mention of the history behind the technique being old world fencing?

Or that In Quartata is only executed after the opponent has committed to his own advance and commited him/herself to an advance thats countered in a very specific manner to avoid be touched by the opponents weapon as you quarter away?

Or that the skill is executed with presently drawn edge and pointy weapons and not pistols?

I'd suggest if you weren't learning with a fencing weapon, you weren't learning In Quartata at all. It takes many hours of perfecting the execution of that particular move/technique and attaining almost master level at the sport of fencing to develop the proper execution of same.

He's letting students believe they have learned In Quartata with a handgun when they leave the class? I've seen the video clip of a "class" he held in Vegas purporting to demostrate the In Quartata.

Not even close, and no cigar where that skill is being taught/advanced to students who for the most part would not know the history or the proper use and execuion of that technique.

As to his FoF materials, I have it on good authority that he actually watched a few of his students in his level one course and developed level 2 shortly after that from what the students had shown him. No mention ever that it was not his material, no credit given to the students who deserved the recognition as well, just more continued taking of credit for someone else's ideas and experiences [ by the lack of acknowledgement ].

Brownie

 

[Matthew Temkin]

My friend's Swedish Police SWAT team was trained by former SAS operator Mel Perry.
Mel routinely stood alongside students targets as they were shooting, as is quite common with SAS instructors.
I guess if men are being trained in CQB they have to learn to work around live fire somehow.
I joked to my friend that many instructors are willing to stand behind their students, but it seemed that Mel Perry is willing to stand in front of them as well.
I will be taking a room entry class with Phil Singleton next month and I will ask him about this practice.

 

[brownie0486]

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141&highlight=quartata

The above addresses the thoughts on SI's In Quartata, from 3/6/2006

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144&highlight=quartata

The links take you to threads on this subject of using this skill with a gun, and the proper execution of same with links to the "correct" execution of the skill.

Brownie

 

[buzz_knox]

On second thought, it's really not worth it.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

In Quartata..as it relates to knife fighting...is shown in John Styer's COLD STEEL
Nothing complicated about it.
I was taught it..both defensively and offensively..by Carl Cestari back in 1991.
It is a wonderful way to get off the x ( the latest buzzword, it seems) and shoot while moving in a lateral direction.
It works just as well with a firearm as it does as a knife and can be learned within minutes.
I can't speak about it's fencing application ( although it is a fencing move) but it seems like a nice tool to have in the toolbox.

 

[crebralfix]

I see people making accusations and statements about where Mr. Suarez gets his material, his history, and so on.

SCANDAL SCANDAL SCANDAL!

I took the Kalashnakov Rifle Gunfighting class. I never saw *anyone* stand in front of the firing line while people were shooting. This is not to say it never occurred in the history of Suarez International; everyone there was concerned about safety. Chamber checks were frequent during hand to hand drills and other parts of the class. Nobody wants to get shot and Mr. Suarez certainly doesn't demand students do something they are not comfortable with.

The KRG course was a great class even if he was still working the bugs out (first run of it). I haven't had so much fun in a gun course in five years...also learned lots of interesting stuff. Sonny Puzikas is an incredible instructor and I will train with him as often as possible.

With regard to material: he came to a conclusion common to what the Russians came up with for rifle transition technique. This stuff isn't rocket science; we're "rediscovering" techniques written about in the past all the time. I just found Ed McGivern's description of a weapon light in _Fast_and_Fancy_Revolver_Shooting_. This was written in the 1930's.

Who cares if he snagged techniques from someone else and made a class off it? My karate/judo instructor did that all the time for his self-defense classes. This stuff really doesn't change; we (as a whole gun culture) are starting to break out of what has become "tradition" (modern technique, police type training, competition techniques applied to combat training, etc).

As far as I'm concerned, it's a waste of time to gossip about self-defense trainers. If there is controversy, then perhaps that trainer is doing something interesting. Check it out! Don't be a keyboard kommando; go and learn something new! If you think the class is bad or some technique sucks, write an honest review about it! Copy the instructor on it and maybe they'll change the course.

***

Steve Silverman at FRI (www.f-r-i.com) will testify on his students' behalf. He provides good training along the lines of the Modern Technique (as of five years ago) with some additional elements mixed in. Steve is a very good trainer and I watched him take a complete newbie and got her shooting fist sized groups in under an hour.

 

[brownie0486]

In Quartata : In quartata
an attack made with a quarter turn to the inside, concealing the front but exposing the back.

The inquartata is an evasive action in time in response to an attack in 4th or high inside line.

It's opposite is the intagliata in response to an attack in 3rd or the high outside line. A thrust, passing under his weapon, is directed to your opponent's outside flank. The left foot remains in place while the right moves about 2 feet to the inside.

In Quartata - Italian for "In Quarter"

Most attacks are made to your inside line. With some fencers, that seems to be all they know to do. Normally you would parry these attacks and then riposte. You may, however, dodge the incoming blade and then riposte without parrying. In this, though, timing and position is key. The In Quartata involves twisting your body away from the incoming blade - using a quarter turn to your left, hence "quartata" - and then lashing out with a riposte. Two things to remember here: First, the blade must not touch your body at all. Second, you may not riposte until the opponent's blade has passed you by - in other words, the tip has moved to a place where there is no possible way it can score a touch. You should really wait another split second until he begins to withdraw his weapon as he realizes he missed - then nail him. You must make sure that his blade no longer presents a threat; for example, if your opponent lunges and you twist away so that his blade comes up two inches short but is still in line with your target, then you are still on the defensive - he may lunge a little farther or something and catch you. In Quartata should be used very sparingly, and if successful will really demoralize your opponent.

Glossary of Fencing Terms:
# In Quartata: a counter-attack made with a quarter turn to the inside, concealing the front but exposing the back.

From John Steyers book:

TECHNIQUE:

ALL you REALLY need is a thrust, a snap-slash(DO NOT use the back snap cut with this!), a "stop-hit", and the "hand-cut". The step over and stab is also useful.

If "In-Quartata and Passata-soto" are NOT comfortable for you, DON'T use them! Since BOTH of these moves are MEANT as "defensive" counter-attacks against an OVERLY committed assault they are NOT mandatory.

Steyers has this to say in the book about "techniques" like the In Quartata:

I always get a "kick" when guys dismiss different methods and/or ideas out of hand. Then when I ask them to "show me", they get the WHOLE GODDAMN thing WRONG! Of course it looks like ****. BECAUSE YOU"RE DOING IT LIKE ****!

Here, Steyers explains exactly what I'm talking about where Mr. Suarez is concerned with this skill being given as traning to his students.

"The Inquartata. In this complex motion, one spins clockwise around the vertical axis, moves to the right and somewhat forward, and straightens out as much as possible in order to present as little target as possible."

Here's the definative on the technique with pics:

The inquartata is a very sophisticated action requiring impeccable timing as well as perfect technical execution.

1st pic:

Fencer on the right executes a faulty "attack."
Fencer on the left correctly responds by placing her point in line and makes an inquartata.

2nd pic:

Same action, another view.
Note well the bent arm of the fencer receiving the touch.
This is what makes his action a preparation instead of an attack.

3rd pic:

Fencer on the right's being uncentered,
leaning in the wrong direction, weight on his front foot
confounds his attempt.

4th pic

Fencer receiving the touch (behind his arm)
is moving only his foot instead of displacing the body.

5th pic:

Inadequate displacement of the body.
Incorrect placement of the rear foot and hand.

6th pic:

Teaching correct foot placement,
balance and displacement of the body.
Rear hand position still incorrect.

7th pic:

Correctly executed attack from the fencer on the right.
Fencer on the left executes a direct counterattack on an inquartata.
Note that her right foot, the hub of the wheel is stationary
while the left foot, the rim of the wheel, moves.

 

[brownie0486]

Pictures 6 and 7:

I was taught In Quartata from a master of the blade, Master at Arms James Keating. The instructor being discussed here also learned the same thing through Mr. Keating, but spent a lot less time in that training than many of Jim;s students, including myself.

What he is teaching as In Quartata with a handgun is not correct in it's form or function. These pictures are the technique in question, no more or less.

As we see in definative explanations from master fencing instructors, it's not simple to learn but "In this complex motion", and "a very sophisticated action requiring impeccable timing as well as perfect technical execution." we see, in the pics and narratives from masters in the skill set, it is a skill that takes a LOT of practice, and continued practice to pull off.

What SI is teaching as In Quartata is NOT In Quartata at all and as I've mentioned, is going to be a very hard skill to transfer to the handgun due to the techniques advantages developed over long centuries of masters at the blades.

If it was "easy to learn", it was not learned correctly, as any skill/technique that requires "a very sophisticated action requiring impeccable timing" does not come easy nor in short time periods of practice.

Hey, it might look cool in class, in might even convince someone who doesn't understand the nuances of the skill that they could pull it off in the real world with a handgun, but in reality, without the proper timing and the perfect footwork perfectly executed, you could find yourself in trouble on the streets trying it.

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

crebralfix;

I see people making accusations and statements about where Mr. Suarez gets his material

He freely admits he takes others materials and incorporates them into his classes all the time, always has, probably always will. No accusations that aren't backed up by his own statements sir, no SCANDAL SCANDAL SCANDAL!, but facts in evidence.

Brownie