Game ranches & Ethical Hunting - What's your take?

[KodiakBeer]

I guess I'd first have to give a * about trophies before I cared one bit about your argument.

Then I guess you agree with me. I don't collect trophies either. But when somebody shows me a 70 inch moose on the wall, and then tells me they used ABC outfitters to find it, I'm not impressed. Of course, such people don't usually tell you that some guy held their hand and led them to the moose.

But, when somebody shows me a 60 inch moose and tells me how they found it themselves, then butchered and packed the meat 9 miles on their back over two days then I'm suitably impressed.

 

[Rembrandt]

For me it's not completely about the shooting or killing, it's about the chase. I am content to spend my time in the woods without ever pulling a trigger, and personally love feeling & being a part of the natural environment....The game ranches detract a bit from "the chase part of it" that i love the most, I could buy a steer locallly grown much cheaper than i could a pen raised elk, and if it were simply about the meat, then that is what i would do.

Your posts indicate a struggle trying to equate aspects of free range hunts to game ranches....you'll be at peace when you stop trying to make the ethical and moral comparison of the two. They are not the same, never were, and never will be. One is a commercial livestock operation with antlers that you book for convenience with limited time for a guaranteed take. Apples are apples and oranges are oranges....both serve a purpose but different.

 

[Cob]

The Missouri Department of Conservation is planning on stocking elk in a 340 square mile area in southern MO. This obviously won't be fenced, but MDC says the elks range will be "limited to the restoration zone". I am kind of doubting this, but if they are, do you think that this would be an ethical hunt?

Elk have been re-stocked in KY, TN, & NC. they are a different sub-species of elk than what was originally there, but Rocky Mtn Elk are now making a come back there, with a population of over 10,000 animals in KY alone. You can apply for tags to hunt elk now in TN, KY, and other Appalacian states in that general area. These are wild, free-ranging animals, in terrain that ranges from 3500- 8500 feet in elevation.

I believe hunting them is just as ethical as CO or NM, where stocking programs were also conducted years ago. I beleive it's different than hunting an elk than is confined to an overcrowded 500 acre pen, that shares the same feeder with wild hogs, axis deer, fallow deer, sitka deer, whitetail deer, and wild goats.
Quote from RMEF:
The North American Elk (Cervus canadensis) also known as wapiti were once residents of the entire area that have become the Great Smoky MTN national park, the Appalachian Mountains and other regions throughout the eastern US. There was at one time 10 million elk roaming North America, but due to the encroachment of man and over hunting, the last North Carolinian Elk was killed in the late 1700's and Tennessee lost its last Elk less than 50 years later.

 

[MattTheHat]

Simple fact: Humans have an unfair advantage over the "lower" animals. (Duh.)

If you employ that advantage to *any* degree, you've got an ethical quandary on your hands.

If you exercise that advantage by means of a high fence, it's somehow distasteful. On the other hand, it's not generally frowned upon to wear camo, employ game calls, wear anti-human-smell-um, and use any other advantage one can think up.

Let's face it, unless you're running around in bear country, unarmed, covered in honey and yelling "Here bear, here bear", with nothing more than a sharpened popsicle stick, the playing field is never going to be level.

 

[Cob]

One thing I can say for SURE, That aint no natural North Florida GAME ; )
Y/D

Actually if you were to go back to 1788, you might would have seen a North American Elk in FL. It looks like they are here now, but they have had some kind of help!

 

[Art Eatman]

"I don't think hunting with guides or on game ranches or over feeders is immoral or unethical, but it's not on the same playing field as going out and finding, stalking and killing an animal on your own."

KB, I agree, but the issue of the thread is that of morality and ethics.

But anybody who thinks a deer in a high-fence pasture is somehow tamer than one in a low-fence pasture hasn't spent much time around deer.

Back to the FWIW department: I know of more than one bunch of deer who will come to you on a dead run when they hear the sound of tapping on a gallon can: They have learned that it means, "Supper! Corn time!" Hopping low fences to get there. However, if a stranger moves at all near, they're gone in a heartbeat.

 

[Cob]

Quote:
High fences restrict movement... restricted movment=confinement.

So do oceans. Hunt on one of the Alaskan islands and you are doing much the same.

I routinely hunted islands on public lands in MS- granted, not an ocean but the river/water could do one of two things:

It limited hunter access. Most guys would not hunt with a boat (even more if cold weather)... they staid on the mainland areas. close to the truck. some times i had to bust the ice at the boat ramp to get the boat to float.
But it could also work to your adantage, and keep game in an "easier to define" area, and open some public land that you truly had to yourself if you were willing to get to islands that were the furtherest from public access points.

The last time i was out there, (fishing in summer) someone had released some feral goats on one of the islands. I snapped a picture, and they had some wide horns for feral goats. (attached is a picture, not good quality, bit it's about a small 75 acre island).
The deer would swim long distances to get away from the mainland sometimes when rifle season opened up, and seeing 20-30 a day was not uncommon. I'm betting those polar bears can swim a long ways too

The island's were not natural, as Corps of Engineers dug channels for barge traffice in the 1970's. The smaller islands were easier to hunt than the bigger ones, some of which were 1100-1200 acres. So i understand the point you are making... but it still somehow seems different than a fenced in area.

rembrant - I'm not stuggling with the idea, but wanted to see what other opinions were on the subject, and they are getting popular in this area, but i would not pay a dime to hunt in one of them.

 

[Ironclad]

Back to the FWIW department: I know of more than one bunch of deer who will come to you on a dead run when they hear the sound of tapping on a gallon can: They have learned that it means, "Supper! Corn time!" Hopping low fences to get there. However, if a stranger moves at all near, they're gone in a heartbeat.

We have a doe that strangers can hand feed and pet. We raised her after her mother got hit by a car. She runs with a herd of her offspring and some strange deer, and theyll all stick around for just about anybody to get within 10 yards or so. Needless to say her entire clan is off limits for hunting. Anyway deer do get pretty used to being around people, and that could definitely could be a factor in hunting penned game.

 

[suzukisam]

ironclad- I heard the land around that elk area is getting bought up pretty fast.. just a rumor but wouldn't surprise me

 

[W.E.G.]

OK by me so long as the animal is not wasted.

With the exception of non-cultivated invasive species, I'm against shoot-and-walk-away.

 

[Ironclad]

ironclad- I heard the land around that elk area is getting bought up pretty fast.. just a rumor but wouldn't surprise me

Yeah that makes since. Conservation Dept. says that elk will be kept in their area, and off private land, by a variety of methods, including hunting. Which I take to mean that landowners on the perimeter will probably be first in line to get tags. Just a guess on my part.

 

[buck460XVR]

Shooting an animal within a high fence enclosure and calling it hunting is like paying a prostitute for sex and calling it love.

I have no problem with the legality and the ethics of game farm/ranch hunts, as a matter of fact I work my dog on game farm pheasants several times a year........but I don't call it a hunt, it's a shoot. At least the birds have a chance at escape as there are no fences to keep them on the acreage.

In a natural environment, with unlimited access and hunting pressure, bucks get big because they learn and have a bit of luck to make a few mistakes and live thru them. If they continue to make mistakes they die and die young. In a high fence operation bucks get big because they are off limits until they are deemed either a shooter or a cull. Either way, they live for years making mistakes and learning nothing. They may not be tame, but they sure as 'ell ain't smart. Most wouldn't survive long outside the fence on their own because they have spent their whole life being fed and looked after. In a natural environment, a hunter success is dependent on how much work he puts into it. A successful hunter must know woodsmanship, know not only the habits and haunts of the of the local deer herd, but must know how the other hunters in the area hunt and how this affects the animals he's after. He must know how to "read" a new area in a short amount of time and how to change his hunting style to fit the new spot. The success of the high fence shooter is dependent on the size of his wallet. The deeper the pockets, the bigger the buck and/or the more quantity and variety of animals. His homework is done by guides and or ranch hands, his stands are placed and maintained by others and the only woodsmanship he needs is not to piss into the wind.

Again, I have no problem with high fence operations and the folks that use them. I know unfortunately for some it is the only form of pursuit they have access to. But please, don't insult legitimate hunters by calling it hunting. Don't belittle the skill needed to take a legitimate trophy by braggin' about the "Big" one you paid top dollar for. Most pencil horned bucks on areas of highly pressured public land are truer "trophies" than the largest racked animal on a high fence ranch.....not because of the amount of horn on their head, but because of the amount of skill needed to bag it.

 

[Outfitter]

I'm not going to fish in a hatchery, and I am not going to hunt behind a high fence. Period.

 

[jmr40]

If it is a 100 acre tract of land with no fence, or a 100,000 acre tract with a fence, Id rather not hunt there if the numbers of animals is artificially increased above the normal carrying capacity of the land. I'm not opposed to others doing so if they wish. I do so at times myself. I just do not find it as satisfying. When you are feeding the animals you are farming. Even if the animals are normally thought of as wild. There are a lot of domestic cattle that are more wild than many of the "wildlife" in these areas

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I never understood the appeal of this. If you can't make it to a real hunt in a real place, then you don't deserve to have a big trophy elk. Or certainly not a big trophy giraffe like this one picture from a USA game ranch I saw. There's no sport in being led to a caged animal that you can kill from up close nice and easy. And to those saying it's hunting for meat, I bet you can get a whole ton more meat from a butcher for the same price as these pointless murders, err...."hunts".

I thought hunting was supposed to be about man and nature. Last time I checked, nature doesn't have giant Elk in Florida or Giraffes in Utah.

Shooting an animal within a high fence enclosure and calling it hunting is like paying a prostitute for sex and calling it love.

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

[suzukisam]

okay so even though I agree with most of the sentiment on here,, let me ask you this.. I go to the butcher and pick out a hog and pay for it to be processed.. I can do this whenever I run out of bacon.. if I could do the same for "free range" venison I think I would.. and if I could shoot it that would be a plus.. I just wouldn't mistake it for hunting, or trophy's... I hate not being able to get venison all year

 

[BikerRN]

okay so even though I agree with most of the sentiment on here,, let me ask you this.. I go to the butcher and pick out a hog and pay for it to be processed.. I can do this whenever I run out of bacon.. if I could do the same for "free range" venison I think I would.. and if I could shoot it that would be a plus.. I just wouldn't mistake it for hunting, or trophy's... I hate not being able to get venison all year

That's sort of my take on it.

I don't have the time to scout and hunt in locations where the game I want to eat is at. That limits me to a game farm for most animals. Notice the word farm. While there may be some elements of hunting involved, it's more about acquiring the meat for me, and having more fun than walking down to my local Butcher and selecting a hog or cow to be processed.

BikerRN

 

[wankerjake]

I'm not going to fish in a hatchery, and I am not going to hunt behind a high fence.

Ha ha, my best friend growing up lived next to the fish hatchery, his old man worked there. The "tourist pond" had a bunch of big ole trout that visitors could pay 25 cents out of a vendor and feed them. Well one night we snuck over there and ran lures...nothing. It had occurred to us that even with a good moon maybe they wouldn't see the lures well enough so we brought some nightcrawlers we dug up in the yard. We fished the bottom, bobbers, everything we could think of for a good hour... nothing. Powerbait didn't fare any better for us. Not a single hit. It still baffles me that we didn't catch fish. Guess they only like fish food...

We did the same thing in the colorado squawfish pond one night, hoping to land a monster with our catfish rigs. Again, nothing we tried produced a single hit. See link for squawfish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_pikeminnow

I guess my point (besides that I'm a lousy fisherman) is that things aren't always as easy as what your perceptions may be. I maintain that if the fishing had been as good as it should have been, it still would have been a whole lot of fun, fish hatchery or not.

For the record, I have never nor am I interested in hunting behind high fences. But if I didn't live here in the great state of AZ with copius amounts of public land to hunt, I may have a different attitude.

 

[Hoth206]

I work with a bunch of guys who do the whole "game ranch" hunts. If it's what makes them happy, then that's fine with me, but it's just not my cup of tea.

Same thing goes for sports. Yeah, I'll watch a game if it's any good, may even pay to go to one if it's a cheap deal, but spending ridiculous amounts of money for season tickets, etc. doesn't hold value for me, so I leave it for others to enjoy.

But is it ethically wrong? nope. No more ethically wrong than slaughtering a steer.

 

[Cob]

Shooting an animal within a high fence enclosure and calling it hunting is like paying a prostitute for sex and calling it love.

I thought about that analogy but wouldn't post it...

 

[Leaky Waders]

I have not hunted on a game ranch...but have these opinions.

1) Exotics can only be hunted on game ranches.

2) Game ranches permit one to hunt year round vs state lands with firearm/season restrictions.

3) A canned hunt is a small enclosure where one shoots an animal with no chance of fair chase, a game ranch is a high fence operation that permits fair chase in an environment that is not open to the public.

4) My friends routinely train their dogs with farm raised quail and pigeons. We don't consider this hunting - we consider this training. Still, the bird is not always shot...really it's kind of 50/50, because everyone is more focussed on dog technique than putting a bird in the bag.

5) Pheasants are exotics that now live in the United States...they are not from here, but they have hunting seasons and are treated as native animals. South Dakota even has a pheasant as the State Bird. It's kind of neat, that an exotic bird imported for hunting has done so well to blend in to the ecology and be adopted by sportsmen.

6) I know a man who is a veteran Vietnam with severe disabilities from bullet wounds suffered there. He saves his money yearly for a weeklong game ranch hunt. The safety and 'catering' to his needs are afforded him on game ranches that cannot be found on public land.

7) I have no problems with baiting. To me, it's no different than using a decoy or call - you're introducing something to change the behavious of the animal to increase your chance of success. I don't bait, but I do use decoys and calls...

8) I've missed nearly everyday of hunting season since 2005 for military obligations. This year was no different and I'm hoping at the end of 2011 I may actually get to hunt. In 2008 I basically came straight home from Africa to a Maryland duck blind to get the last day of the season in...I was so poorly acclimatized I couldn't stop shivering regardless of how much gear I wore. I had to leave early. When overseas, those of us who hunt and fish really consider going after an exotic or at least hunting hogs on a game ranch in the off season just to get to hunt. I haven't done it, but have seriously considered it.

 

[lizziedog1]

In some parts of the country, its either game farm hunting or no hunting at all.

 

[Leaky Waders]

That's true Lizzie I just got back from the range - man I'm luvin this new 257 weatherby. I was also thinking, for those who put down the 'suits' who live in an urban area and book a hunt at the high fence place...these guys also vote to preserve hunting rights come election days. Their urban areas may limit them to limited guided hunts, but that satisfies them and lends itself to being part of the hunting brotherhood.

Let's face it, if everyone could only hunt near their neighborhoods then the most harvested animal would probably be pigeons.

 

[grubbylabs]

Personally, I look at it this way. I don't care what you do with the animal you buy. If you want quality meet for your freezer and think that would be a great way to fill it, go for it. who am I to say you are wrong. Not all high fenced hunting is "easy" though, some people really do work for their animals, but they are still not the same as a public land hunt.

 

[lizziedog1]

but they are still not the same as a public land hunt.

You are right. Public land hunts have an advantage, the public is allowed. If you are in a less populated area, no problem. Big problem in more populated places.

California does have a few public hunting areas set aside. Try going to one on the opening day of dove season. You will quickly get your fill of public hunting.