Gang Defense Strategy Question

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If it is at all possible, aim for the apparant 'leader' of the group. Or at least the person that people seem to be 'grouped around'. A gang of people, naturally are people who don't know about 'chain of command' that military units use, nor contingency planning.

Shooting the leader creates tempoary confusion as the group, now 'leaderless', decides what to do : attack or run. Having hurt or killed the 'leader', leaves several sub-ordinates (who assume that they are 'second' only to the leader on the ladder), who, if they are not running, cannot bring the group into a cohesive whole again. At best, you would still have to deal with a small fraction of the original group, but still a handfull I am sure.

There is a great work called Understanding Riots, that explains lots of this in detail and is/was available free on the internet.

JE223
 
yes!

knowing when to leave fast is most important. Sometimes knowing where not to go in the first place is a good idea too
 
Denial

"I have such mixed feelings," she added. "I'm so ashamed that I didn't try to run out there and stop them, but it was terrifying."

"I've never seen anything like that in my life," she added. "I can't even describe it. I'm still terrified."
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One girl's mother said she doesn't blame witnesses who were too frightened to intervene.
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"I can't imagine," Barbara said, her eyes shining with tears. "I can't imagine anyone doing that to another human being, or even an animal."
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The only phrase missing is "I can't believe . . . !"

These are people who do not actually believe that such evil and bad intent really exist. Their world simply doesn't admit of the possibility.

It has been said in various ways that the lowest confront is the confront of evil. Paraphrased, the thing people have the most trouble facing is real, honest to God, paint-me-black BADNESS.

In order to SEE that there are bad guys, you have to know that bad guys exist. If you're in denial on the existence of bad guys ("they're just misunderstood"), you won't see them when they come for you.
 
So what did they do wrong? They failed to recognize the signs of trouble. They didn't know how to detach and withdraw. Instead they actively tried to ignore their tormentors, which could be taken as a challenge. They expected help to arrive as soon as they called for it. Realizing that the police don’t come out of the phone when the 911 operator comes on line is important for all our loved ones to understand. For some amount of time you are completely on your own. They didn't know that they were in a fight for their lives. They were sheep in the midst of predators. Had they had a gun amongst them they may have fought their way clear, but there's no guarantee. At the least they might have had a chance.
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Hso analyzed this well. Reading this, it struck me that those girls were probably taught from kindergarten to ignore name-calling and verbal harassment ("just walk away, honey, just ignore them, 'stick and stones'"). We go out of our way as a society to teach our kids not to fight, from the time they have to share the sandbox in diapers until they graduate from high school.

They didn't know they were in a fight, I agree; but they didn't know how to fight, either. They've been taught over and over that fighting is bad, and they had no skills whatsoever to cope with this.

They weren't stupid, they didn't do "everything wrong", as some have said. They appear to have done exactly what they were taught...go as a group, ignore taunting, call for help. The screwup is in what they were, or more specifically, were NOT, taught.

I hope they recover, physically and emotionally, and I hope their attackers are caught. It takes a lot longer emotionally than physically, that's for sure.

Springmom
 
We can banter on the girls should not have been there, etc. My issue is the residents...just watched it happen. Someone driving by stopped the assault.

I'll probably be flamed for this, but the residents should have been there first. I understand their concern of retaliation., it is sensitive issue...but they are still in danger because they have not taken back their grounds from the minority...who are the hoodlums. I went through this as a youth because I refused "walk the other way" to and from school. I was in a place legally. I eventually won that walk...long battle though and the odds were not always on my side. As most of you are saying...we are own best protection.
 
There was no guarantee

CCW might have helped, but being in California, it's pretty much a moot point. However, I am a strong beleiver that a round going off would have dispersed the crowd just like light does cockroaches.

Mob mentality is ruthless and brutal, however, high decibel noise from a firearm, or even just a big ol M80, will make people think twice about their actions. It worked for small business owners during the LA riots and looting, I think it would have been effective here also.

If it happened near my home and I witnessed it, some loud noises would have followed of one form or another. Loud percussion gets peoples attention, even foaming at the mouth gangbanger types. It lets them know it's decision time.

It's a lot like the old western where 8 or 10 unarmed guys are threatening one person with a six shoooter. The guy with the gun says, "Yes, you'll win, but which six of you are going with me."

jeepmor
 
i disagree with some of the arguments.... it could have just been kids being dumb and maybe the girls were like oo ok.. they are weird but i mean who could expect a beating like that??? no one goes to a haunted house on halloween expecting to get the sh** beat out of them... if i was there i would of let go a couple rounds.. but here is the question where?? on the ground? or the bastard that hit the defenseless girl with the skateboard... damn that story pissed me off......
 
jfanzen said:
... or the bastard that hit the defenseless girl with the skateboard...
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That's definitely an assault with a deadly weapon. Little different from a baseball bat or crowbar. Lethal force would clearly have been justified against the assailant.

Sad story all around. There's little else the girls could have done once they were in that situation. The key would have been avoiding it altogether. But once you're there and faced with dozens of attackers, your options are severely limited.
 
Actually, CCW is legal at 18 in the Shall Issue states of South Dakota, Indiana, Alabama, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, North Dakota & Iowa. It's also legal at 18 in Delaware. While Delaware is a May Issue, it's probably the least Discretionary of the May Issue states after Connecticut and Alabama. Don't know whether Vermont or Alaska allow for unlicensed 18 year old CCW.

Yes, I know, this was California. I'm simply noting that it's 21 in most states, not all states.

3 armed CCW licensees against 25 to 40. If they surround ya, huddle up back to back, and shoot any threats that approach. If not, move to cover first and then shoot any threats.

With a Glock 19 and one reload each, that's 31 rounds a piece or 93 rounds in all. They can shoot each assailant twice COM and give 13 of 'em a coup de grâce. Don't like the odds? Consider carrying two reloads. Then it's 138 rounds in all, and EVERYONE gets a headshot.

Sounds preposterous, I know. The fact remains that 2 legged predators, much like 4 legged predators, prey upon the weak, the young, the old, the small, the infirmed, the alone, et al.

The suspects also began to gradually separate the girls
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Stick together, fight together. Alone people will often give up. In a group, people are more inclined to fight back. Can't tell you the number of dumb things my brother and I did together than neither of us would have done alone.

Predators also don't expect a fight from their prey. When the prey whips out talons or hooves or horns or a Glock, even before a shot is fired at least some of the predators start thinking, "Whoa, this sh*t ain't worth dying over. I just wanted to get laid." 80/20 rule says only 8 of the 40 are hardcore--90/10 rule says only 4 are hardcore.
 
In all, the attack lasted about 10 minutes, and it ended only when a Good Samaritan driving by the melee stopped and physically blocked the battered girls bodies while yanking the assailants off the victims.

Maybe because he was also black, or because he was so tall and strong, the group broke up and scattered to several cars and fled, the victims said.
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Wow. He didn't even have a gun. He just did what he felt morally compelled him as the right thing to do.

Everyone here who's of the mindset that a gun might have helped, or might not have helped, or whatever . . . Take note of what did ACTUALLY work.

One man. By these accounts unarmed. One man who felt compelled to do the right thing, despite overwheming odds. Someone who we all might very will be ridiculing tonight if we read he got beat, broken, and killed in his attempt to rescue those poor women.


Bravo for you, Mr. Good Samaritan. To paraphrase R. L. Ermey in Full Metal Jacket. "You might be silly and ignorant, but you've got guts. And apparently, on Halloween on the 3800 block of Linden Avenue "Guts was enough."
 
Hereby jumping on
the Hso bandwagon.

Go, Hso.

Then, adding one word:

Streetwise.

They understand it.
If you don't,
then regardless of
age, color or creed,
you're as good as dead.

Wake up.
Be aware.
Stay alert.

Teach the
children well.

It's a jungle out there,
& it will only get worse
in coming years...
 
This is the mistake:

The victims - along with throngs of other people - had gone to the 3800 block of Linden Avenue around 9:30 p.m. for a popular Halloween block party.
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It's a shame that now-a-days we need to avoid certain activities... but they really should have evaluated where they were going, what time they were going, and would they fit in.

As a young teenager (about 14-15) a few friends and I lied about staying at each other's house overnight for the 4th of July. We decided to catch a bus to the downtown Baltimore and Inner Harbor area of Maryland to 'celebrate' the holiday. We didn't know the busses stopped running at 10pm - we figured we could catch a ride back whenever we got bored. We were stuck over night in downtown Baltimore. This was not a good.

We happened upon a block party. We were definitely out of place; stuck out like a sore thumb. It didn't take long before we recognized too many people taking note of our presence... and just about when we figured it was time to make ourselves scarce, a friend of mine had to give a stiff right-cross to some dude that threatened him over his pager.

Seconds later before that could develop into a real bad situation for us, some other commotion on the north side of the block about 50yds away two large groups seemed to be in a scuffle. All of the sudden a few shots rang out and you never saw a few white boys run so fast in your life...

All I remember was running faster than humanly possible and hurdling the stoops of each row home. We spent the remainder of the evening in the lobby of the Marriot (real tough guys!) and caught a bus when they began running again at 7am.

Had that other situation not developed and taken everyone's attention away from us... we could have been in deep excrement especially given my friend had to punch another kid in the face for trying to take his pager not seconds before.

There were a number of other bad confrontations that happened that evening from bad experiences with crazy bums, to being chased by some prostitutes (ok, that last one is still comical to this day).

We should have realized going to this location at this time of night, for that type of celebration was a real real real bad idea. These poor girls should have realized the same thing.
 
I look at situations like that and what happened during the LA riots and it is obvious that if the victims had a handgun things would have been different.

I praise the lone Black guy for stopping the car, breaking up the attack. He looked past skin color and seen three girls in need.

They should have never gone there by themselves. Call this racism if you want, but why in hell would you go to an all black (or any race) party without a black friend or at least knowing somone there?
Click to expand...

I remember some 20 years ago having to walk my Black friends out of my neighborhood so they would not get attacked, and they needed to do the same for me in their neighborhoods. Today, it is not that much of a problem with my old poor white neighborhood anymore, but still a major problem in the poor black ones. Young white suburban kids don't know this stuff. Teach your kids where the bad neighborhoods are and to avoid them, or to be extra, extra, careful if the NEED to go in one.
 
when it is already too late

It is commented on often here on THR; the presence of provacatory females within a group of men is a certain imflammatory situation that almost assures that violence will result! Those victim girls -being girls should have had some innate sense of that phenomenon.

The silence of these three lambs was a signal to the predators that selection had been made. That was when they did not respond to the "get down" taunting. Now with mouthy girl gang members awaiting a flippant reply, that too would have escalated the reaction. But, rather, a reply of some type of we are not prey for you, statement, should have been given. Silence to the predator indicates weakness just as much as an overly bravado response will.

I concur with JE223 to focus on the leader of the group, even if he may be in the background -they usually are. It is diffucult to determine just who the leader or his subordiates are, but the ones directly in your face are usually gullible "henchmen." The only way of bypassing them first is to go into action premptively; before the assault begins.

How about taking and remaining in the "high ground" like at the top of a stair way or in a confining doorway. An open and plain signal that the taking of these girls will cost a price.

The one attacker used a skate board. The girls too, could have taken up make shift weapons; showing their determination. That would have been beneficial before or after the assault had begun.

There is another topic here about cellular 'phone dependency, and the girls should have placed the call for help initially coming out of the party.
My opinion, but I view the frantic calling on the phone for help, durning the action, as just another signal to the gang that these girls saw themselves as helpless.
"Oh please come quick and somebody help me!"

A last resort, but they could have jostled parked cars hoping to set the alarms off, or even perhaps throwing rocks through people's windows to get attention.

Large group assaults mean that the individual group members are skulking jackals and not timberwolves. It doesn't take much resistant agression to put that type of coward on the defensive.
 
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Well, James, all you say is correct, and if they had ever been taught to think that way, they might have done some or all of that. My point is that they have been specifically taught NOT to do that; rather, I imagine they have been taught to do exactly what they did...to ignore the taunting in the belief it would go away, to believe that being in a group is safe, to believe that in a large crowd with all those neighbors they were safe.

It is commented on often here on THR; the presence of provacatory females within a group of men is a certain imflammatory situation that almost assures that violence will result! Those victim girls -being girls should have had some innate sense of that phenomenon.
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:what: This sounds awfully close to blaming the victim of rape for what happens to her. Those girls were going to a haunted house in a neighborhood, they went in a group, they didn't go looking for trouble. Let's not lose sight of the fact, as some have commented here, that there WERE neighbors and they stood and watched instead of helping. Shades of Kitty Genovese!

The use of the phrase "provacatory (sic) females" is really pretty low. They were young people going to a block party. I think it's pretty far off the high road to call them provocative. :scrutiny:

Springmom
 
re:

8 shades of stupid. I'll drink to that. I'm 6'2" and 200 pounds, and carry everywhere I go...and even *I* wouldn't be dumb enough to walk into an area like that at night without a pressing need. There are parties everywhere you look on Halloween without venturing into "Injun Country."

Carry a gun and go anyway? Suuuure....

"And Mister/Miss/Mrs./Ms. Hoorah...exactly why did you arm yourself and go to a place where you knew you stood a good chance of being attacked?
Were you hoping to get the opportunity to shoot somebody?"

Sounds suspiciously like a sorority initiation thing or maybe a dare...or possibly just show of naive youthful bravado.
 
Springmom:

I've apparently not expressed myself clearly enough -again, but, I was trying to respond to the original post; as to what tactical steps could be taken in that specific situation those unfortunate girls found themselves in.
I'm aware that these three were niaeve, from the sound of it, but that was not in question.

It may come close to implying that they were somehow at fault for their own attacks, but I was not implying that at all. I suppose it us just my inability to compose with clarity. However, I make effort not to imply, but rather to post simply what I state and no more.

The "provacative females" referred to the girl gang members who had verbally incited the men of the gang. We wern't there, but you know how that goes.
Verbal manipulation ala soap opera such as " The Young and the Restless" type of TV show where the dumb and unsuspecting are made to do the bidding of the clever. When ever mixed sex groups of young people gather that goes on, gangs or other instances.

I make an effort not to misread or read into posts here, so please be kind, and give me the same courtesy.

Thanks,
Jim
 
"I wonder if a person would really be safer with a gun in this situation, I know it works great to deter 1-3 crooks but 30? <get ready to vomit> couldn't they just take the gun away from them?"

Deter? Deter would not be my goal for drawing. Stoppage would be my goal. Yes, you'd be better off with 1-3 gang instead of 30.

But let's say there are 30. Soon after I draw, I'll be at slide lock, and then there will only be 20 of them instead of 30. Still a bad situation, but not as bad. And if they do get my gun off me then, it's only good as a club unless they brought their own ammo for it.
 
BULLFROGKEN - "Doc, he [the Good Samaritan] might have wanted to remain anonymous. . . . for obvious reasons."

You'd better believe it. It is axiomatic, at least in Calif., that when gangstas are "dissed," whether by rival gangstas, or just some poor, honest, oblivious shlub on the street, violent retaliation and revenge are certain.

L.W.
 
Since these were jackels and not timber wolves, I don't think that you would have had to empty your weapon. Once you drop the first person, the other 29 would have ran.

On the other hand, a couple of them could have guns on their own. Either way you would have to deal with less of them. 2 against 1 is a hell of alot better than 30 to 1

I feel real sorry for these girls. But I think that they should have been taught some street smarts. I really don't honestly think these girls understood what kind of neighborhood they were in.
 
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