Vietnam M16 thread

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...I'm pretty sure none of the M16s we were issued had a chrome bore or chamber in 1967...

Thanks for that, Curator. I've always wondered if I was issued a chrome lined version but suspected it was the older non-lined M16. I got there in early Feb '68 which isn't long after what you observed above.

We actually knew very little about powder, chrome bores, etc.All that came later.

Cleaning was important-I had a jointed rod I kept taped to my CAR.

Cleaning mags was important-they got full of crud, especially in water, and that got on the cases as well. Serious dust the rest of the time.

The design certainly has persisted, even in the face of so much derision.

Have to agree with that too, rocky branch. I sure didn't know much except to keep the darn thing clean. Used gasoline and motor oil, whatever. Guess that was enough though. A lot of guys, especially the older ones didn't like the M16 but I was just a kid. I heard horror stories about jamming but mine worked and since it was much lighter than the M14 I liked it.
 
I started with M16 as a Marine in 1981, 20 years later I carried the rifle for a short time in Iraq, I ditched the M16 for an AK47, better gun , better round.
 
In 1967, there were NO chrome bores for the XM16E1 (M16), there was limited cleaning gear, there was bad ammo (powder) and there was a problem with the rate of fire (to fast, 1,000 RPM & up).

All of these and some other things (care & cleaning) compounded the problems of the rifle, it killed a lot of Marines & soldiers.:fire:
 
clem, that must have been a sad, frustrating and hard thing for you and a lot of guys to go through, and I feel for you and them. Maybe there is a silver lining to this cloud somewhere.
 
The M16 seems to have been bad-mouthed by generations of soldiers. I was too young for Nam, entering service in the Kansas National Guard in 1979. My issue M16 worked flawlessly, but I bought and used my own personal magazines in it, and kept the weapon cleaner than most.

In 1982 I went back through basic again as I had decided to go Active Army Infantry (long story there). Once again, my M16 in Basic operated perfectly. At my duty station at Fort Ord, CA. I was issued a 1911 as I was a guided missile gunner.

Throughout various enlistments in the Guard after my Active Army stint, I never had a problem with the M16 issued to me... until...

In 2003, amidst rumors that our unit was slated for activation, we turned in all firearms and were issued brand spanking new ones. I cleaned my new issue thoroughly and inspected it carefully. At the range, it absolutely refused to extract the spent brass from the chamber after firing. Other's were experiencing the same problem. Our armorer was pulling what hair he had left out in clumps... our first, second and third trip to the range resulted in the same failures.
I don't know what 'fix' they came up with, as I transferred units due to the Federal position that I had requiring a different MOS, and when the transportation unit I joined was called up I was medical discharged since I seemed to have about 8% of my hearing after 12 years in an artillery battery, a year as a missile gunner, and 2 years driving HETS... I had sworn to get hold of the first AK I could if possible.
 
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Too many good men died because of this and nobody paid for this criminal negligence. :banghead:
 
I think in one of your posts in this forum a few months back.

Is so sobering. :(

Is sad that so little has been done about this. :(
 
No problem on the picture.

Your right. I think a lot of very higher ups made a lot of money off of this. And what pisses me off is that even though they have worked out the bugs and the rifle is fairly decent. They still use a 22 ROUND for combat!
 
Sorry but i have to ask. What is that a picture of? At first i thought it was an old Printing shop. but that aint right
 
I was issued an M16 in 11/67. and my too heavy, too long, and WAAAY to reliable M14 was turned in.

We were given about three hours of "training", and sent to the range. There was ONE cleaning kit allotted for every THREE rifles. We were told that the M16 didn't need cleaning during "normal use".

We found that: The ammo was "dirty". The rate of fire was much higher than we were told. The magazines sucked, and they had already issued a second type, then a third, by 11/67. The furniture was brittle. The buffers failed early and often in well-used guns. Many of the brand new M16s weren't reliable out of the box. FTE was a serious problem, along with a bolt-over jam.

As for rust, we were in the Mekong region, in the Rung Sat Special Zone, and it was always wet. I also found it less than amusing that the initial flash-suppressors were really great weed-catchers. Then, the guns, when moving through wet grass, would wick up moisture into the barrel. If you crossed by fording, and the gun became submerged, it wasn't safe to fire upon surfacing. This wasn't a problem with the M14.

The current rifles appear to be somewhat improved, but my USMC daughter, at Parris Island in 2005, told us horror stories about the reliability of their M16 rifles that sounded much the same as 1967.

I have to agree that the M16 was sold to the Whiz Kids, who had a vested interest in the commercial purchase of weapons developed outside of the old arsenal system, as a completely developed weapons system. The lack of actual testing, as demanded by the older Ordnance system would have saved a number of lives.

FYI, the M14 was developed under the direction of the Army. They wanted it to do the things mentioned. Springfield did as much as it could to follow those directions. Blaming them is akin to blaming Chevrolet for developing a Corvette with a 4 cylinder engine for a group who wants to buy 30,000 of them.
 
Yeah that pretty much sums it up, changes made were throwing good money after bad, I was trained by Vietnam Vets, Their statement stays with me to this day, "Listen up girls, a lotta boys died cuza that rifle" The failure of the M16 is the bolt carrier group and and that POS charging handle. Vietnam Vets told me the Commies got it right with the SKS and AK.These ass kissers in the rear say their M16 was great, they never spent 4 weeks in suck with crappy food, diaper rash and bug bites, Like I said bunch a guys got an AK and used em well
 
No doubt there were problems with the M16 and it was a crime to dump those problems on our men. But the M14 had plenty of problems as well and wasn't a good choice in Vietnam. I was glad to turn mine in and get the M16. The military did rush it out but the design is good. There's a reason why we still use it and the M4.
 
There is a guy named Pate who's a pretty good investigative journalist who's written for Soldier of Fortune magazine. He's pretty well tapped in to a military good-old-boy network. Excellent articles on Ruby Ridge and Waco.

His article on the M-16 deal covered many facets, but what I remember most was the thing about the powder.

Stoner's design was set up for full-auto at around 750 per minute with IMR type stick powder. The Olin Corporation lobbied the Pentagon to change to their Ball powder. Olin won a contract.

The problem arose that the rate of fire increased to some 900 rounds per minute, IIRC. I don't recall comments about fouling, but for sure the higher rate of fire meant more heat, which leads to sticky extraction. Sticky extraction means jams.

So, FWIW, that's what I "know" about that era...
 
Like I said bunch a guys got an AK and used em well

It's a popular weapon with under trained shooters.

In almost five years in an SF unit, I never once saw a Team guy who'd take an AK over an M4, and the only support guys who professed a preference for the AK lacked basic gunfighting skills and tended to be the ones who were "gently" encouraged to be fobbits.
 
Some vets even used nails instead of firing pins.

Not that this point hasn't already been beat to death, but I just wonder where some of this rumors even come from. I can't picture any nail that could even come remotely close to serving as an AR-15/M-16 firing pin!

Maybe they meant to say that they gave up on the M-16 and used the M-16's firing pin as a nail?
 
The problem arose that the rate of fire increased to some 900 rounds per minute, IIRC. I don't recall comments about fouling, but for sure the higher rate of fire meant more heat, which leads to sticky extraction. Sticky extraction means jams.

A cyclical rate above specs is going to cause problems. All gas operated weapons are designed using the “residual blowback effect”. This is explained in Col Chin’s Vol IV Book of the Machine Gun. This is a way for the gun designer to increase the time that energy is available to activate the mechanism. All gas operated weapons unlock when there still is residual pressure in the bore. This pressure has to be below the burst strength of brass, in Chin’s book that was 650 psia for a 20 mm cannon shell.

The inset on this 7.62 MM pressure curve is there for a reason. This came out of an AMCP design book and this residual pressure curve is there so designers can work out the dwell of their mechanisms.

Once the timing of the mechanism is set, changes to bullets, powders, pressures often muck up the dynamics of a semi automatic mechanism.

Pressuretimecurve762NatoAMCP706-260.gif

If you change to slow burning powders that high port pressures, high bore pressures, powders that open the mechanism before pressures have dropped enough, then you are going to have problems.

The shooting community believes that friction between the chamber and cartridge is good, when, in fact , the exact opposite is true. Cases that stick to the chamber will have rims pulled off, in extreme cases get ripped in half, and in the example of the M16 and ball powder, when the residual breech pressure was too high at unlock, jams happens.

Colt advised the troops to oil their cartridges, to reduce the friction between the case and the chamber. The Army hates grease and oil and the dirt that stuff attracts, so that temporary field fix was discontinued.

Roller bolt mechanisms open so early in the pressure curve that the Germans used chamber flutes which float the upper 2/3 rds of the case off the chamber in order to reduce breech friction.

ChamberFlutesMP5.jpg
FlutedChamber.gif

Even after hundreds of millions of dollars were spent to fix what could be fixed, the M16 cannot overcome its inherent limitations and is still not the best design. However, it will, and its M4 variants, remain in Army inventory and will so for decades to come.

The Army likes what it has, wants something better but only a little different, and totally rejects revolutionary change.
 
I went in country Sept 69' and cleaned and treated my M16 the way my father had taught me to care for our guns at home. He was a War2 vet and before I left for Nam told me to clean and care for my weapon before I cleaned myself. I was a heavy equipment operator anddust was our biggest problem. I stil have a complete cleaning kit for an M16.
 
Lots of war stories about trading for an AK don't include the fact that after a few firefights, you knew the distinctive sound and directed fire at it. In dense cover, there's no way to tell who is carrying it.

I put it with the "firing pin as a nail" BS.

It's archived at arfcom, and their server won't allow links. A post up this year discussed all the powder and chrome issues, along with the magazine changes, which were significant. Lots of comparisons are made to the AK, look at the robust design, then check out theGI M16 mag. You can drop it fully loaded on the feed lips and it will be screwed up good. FTF will start happening because of the light sheet metal lips getting bent, unlike the machined steel feed lips on AK mags.

There is another element frequently left out. Colt was making M16's just fine, and up to 1967 they ran OK. They were in low production rate mode, and the contracts were small, allowing a lot of fitting to get the parts right. It's NOT like it is today, weapons makers got good tolerances, just not as tight as some would like. Sometimes they needed a lick or too to get right, and they got it. There were glowing reports of the early contract rifles going quite well.

As an aside, that aluminum receiver and composite furniture added a lot to the "don't need to clean it" concept. On the outside, the only parts that were steel were the sights and exposed barrel. ALL the rest didn't rust or corrode. You really DON'T need to clean it - like a wood stock and steel M1 or M14. Huge difference.

Once the ramp up in production was going full song, Colt was putting out 4 times the production. There's only one way to do that, buy outside parts, and hire new workers. Quality suffered (just like it did in the '80s,) and inspecting each incoming part from an outside supplier apparently didn't happen in a thorough manner, if at all.

If you've worked a production line and understand tolerance stacks, you know this, but in the last 30 years, those jobs have all gone overseas. It's not part of the American labor experience any more.

One supplier of barrels got the chambers too tight. The M16's shipped. They jammed, especially during a infamous firefight in which the soldiers, with almost no training, no cleaning supplies, and a large number of draftees, had problems.

I say draftees because when the Army says you have to do something, it's part of human nature to resist. Even volunteers, and non-firearms enthusiasts are a larger part of draftees than volunteer in the day. And since you were literally kidnapped and forced to be there largely against your will, don't expect them to fully understand and cooperate with mundane grundgy tasks they don't want to do.

Subsequent to that action, it was discovered the chambers in those weapons were tight, and armorer action teams put in country with truckloads of new M16's with inspected chambers. Every unit was hunted down, some even in contact with the enemy, according to the participant's eyewitness accounts. Chambers were gauged, no go's set aside, and new weapons issued on the spot. If you were lined up waiting, you caught on fast, and some created expedient damage to get a new rifle, deserved or not.

Once you sort out the stories, as I have even before I graduated high school in 1971, you get the idea that firearms knowledgeable soldiers had little problem. They cleaned them however, as I did, and had to, without sufficient supplies. If your issue T-shirts are stained at the tail, and smell like lubricant, you know. As for the others, I seriously doubt they would have done much better had supplies and training been given to them. They simply refused to do what they were told, and that is another reason the all volunteer army works better.

Were they told wrong? No, not always, and the easy excuse to blame nameless higher ups for a conspiracy to make millions doesn't change the fact that lots of other units with competent commanders and NCO's didn't have major problems. A lot of it was due to a mindset that create some bad situations, and never should have happened. That is a continuing problem in the military, and it will never go away, regardless of the effort to educate and train every soldier. It's directly related to being human, and humans are not perfect.

Expecting perfection from organizations of humans is it's own reward.
 
Wow, great post - thank you!

A cyclical rate above specs is going to cause problems. All gas operated weapons are designed using the “residual blowback effect”. This is explained in Col Chin’s Vol IV Book of the Machine Gun. This is a way for the gun designer to increase the time that energy is available to activate the mechanism. All gas operated weapons unlock when there still is residual pressure in the bore. This pressure has to be below the burst strength of brass, in Chin’s book that was 650 psia for a 20 mm cannon shell.

The inset on this 7.62 MM pressure curve is there for a reason. This came out of an AMCP design book and this residual pressure curve is there so designers can work out the dwell of their mechanisms.

Once the timing of the mechanism is set, changes to bullets, powders, pressures often muck up the dynamics of a semi automatic mechanism.



If you change to slow burning powders that high port pressures, high bore pressures, powders that open the mechanism before pressures have dropped enough, then you are going to have problems.

The shooting community believes that friction between the chamber and cartridge is good, when, in fact , the exact opposite is true. Cases that stick to the chamber will have rims pulled off, in extreme cases get ripped in half, and in the example of the M16 and ball powder, when the residual breech pressure was too high at unlock, jams happens.

Colt advised the troops to oil their cartridges, to reduce the friction between the case and the chamber. The Army hates grease and oil and the dirt that stuff attracts, so that temporary field fix was discontinued.

Roller bolt mechanisms open so early in the pressure curve that the Germans used chamber flutes which float the upper 2/3 rds of the case off the chamber in order to reduce breech friction.




Even after hundreds of millions of dollars were spent to fix what could be fixed, the M16 cannot overcome its inherent limitations and is still not the best design. However, it will, and its M4 variants, remain in Army inventory and will so for decades to come.

The Army likes what it has, wants something better but only a little different, and totally rejects revolutionary change.
 
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