Vietnam era AK47's

[dvdcrr]

I have a few questions about the Vietnam era AK47 rifles fielded against our troops in Vietnam. First what was the overall quality of these rifles? Were they well made and uniform from one to the next? Secondly, what qualities about the rifle (if any) did US troops respect? Did our troops know in advance which enemy units would be armed with the contemporarily modern AK47, and if so did they give more respect than to units armed with older mosins? What did US troops learn tactically when encountering forces heavily armed in the jungle with AK47's?
About the round: Was 7.62x39 perceived to be effective by US troops in Vietnam? More so than 5.56?
I have veterans in my family but none served directly in this war.

 

[moxie]

Although there might have been a few Mosins in Vietnam early on, it was but a few, along with lots of other weapons, anything they could get. The primary small arms of the NVA and the VC came to be very quickly the AK-47 and the SKS, and variants. Some Russian and Eastern-European made guns were there but the vast majority were made in China, decently made and reliable. Both used the 7.62X39 round, also primarily from China. There was then and still is debate about the relative effectiveness of the 7.62X39 vs. 5.56X45 rounds. Note that Russia itself converted the AK-47 to the AK-74, using 5.45X39 ammo, very similar to the M-16's 5.56X45 round. AKs have always been very reliable, while early M-16s had reliability problems, due partly to ammunition problems. Once the ammo and cleaning/lubrication issues were squared away, the M-16 became much more reliable, but the debate goes on as to which is the better weapon.

 

[Spade5]

RPG is what we respected

It doesn't make sense that a single shot rocket fired out of a bamboo tube would get your attention more than a very reliable AK47 but if we saw RPG's then the situation went up a knotch.

We encountered units with the SKS but mostly AK47. This was down in III corp west and north of Saigon 70-71.

You never forget the sound of an AK being fired at you. To this day it gets my attention if someone has one at the range.

It is my opinion that NVA & VC troups believed in their weapon and were proud of it. I have no doubt they felt it was superior to the M-16. At that time we generally thought the AK was ballistically like the 7.62 M-60 which of course it isn't. We only knew what the Army told us and later found out it wasn't always the truth.

I had more respect for the ability of our enemy than I thought their weapons were better. After all they were fighting for their dirt and we were the invaders that didn't want to be there.

 

[tahunua001]

I have a few questions about the Vietnam era AK47 rifles fielded against our troops in Vietnam. First what was the overall quality of these rifles? Were they well made and uniform from one to the next? Secondly, what qualities about the rifle (if any) did US troops respect? Did our troops know in advance which enemy units would be armed with the contemporarily modern AK47, and if so did they give more respect than to units armed with older mosins? What did US troops learn tactically when encountering forces heavily armed in the jungle with AK47's?
About the round: Was 7.62x39 perceived to be effective by US troops in Vietnam? More so than 5.56?

the AK47s, if memory serves right were mostly built by china and gifted to the VC. aside from a few regular units, most of hte VC didn't have any uniform set of issuance. the Chinese sent SKS, AKs, and Mosin nagants and the VC had a SKS factory at least early on during the war before it was destroyed.

 

[MutinousDoug]

Most of the time I was there 1970, we were trying to interdict the Ho Chi Minh trail along the Cambodian border, setting up ambushes and looking for cashes. Most of the guys we ran into were not 1st line troops, rather they were porters pushing bicycles loaded down with bags of rice bound for the lowlands. About one in three would be armed and that with an SKS for the most part. The few times they found us first and were able to initiate a fight they were better armed, often with AKs. At the ranges we engaged, about 50-60 yds, the 5.56 and 7.62x39 were equally effective. I never felt under gunned by being limited to 19 rnd magazines and we carried more than twice the ammunition the average NVA carried.
When we were in Cambodia in May and June we uncovered a cashe of weapons the majority of which were new and well cared for. Most were Chinese made SKSs and AKs along with RPGs and a few light machine guns. I don't remember ever seeing a Mosin over there.

 

[moxie]

One of the reasons guns like the Mosin were not seen much had to do with ammo, or lack thereof. Whereas I saw literally hundreds of thousands of rounds of Chinese 7.62X39, I never saw a single round of 7.62X54R. It just wasn't being shipped to the NVA/VC.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My unit captured Moisin 38s and 44s, SKS, and AK 47. The latter were all Chinese made. At Khe Sahn (after the siege) we picked up AKs with the receivers still full of cosmoline --- brand new, just issued at the Kho Raht just over the border in Laos.

The AK 47 was reliable, but heavy -- much of the due to the heavy magazines, which were a key to its reliability. The NVA tended to shoot full auto -- which is not very effective in real combat, and eats up all the ammo a man can carry real fast.

 

[DPris]

Buddy brought home a Mosin carbine from his AF tour.
It was his hunting gun till could afford better.
Still has it.
Denis

 

[RustyShackelford]

John Plaster(USAR, retired)....

Author John Plaster(Major/0-4, US Army Reserves, ret) served in the MAC-V-SOG. The SOG was the special operations group or "studies & observations group" .
They had 3 basic sections; north, central & south. They ran spec ops & covert missions until about 1973 in SE Asia.
After the war, Plaster became a sniper trainer/tactics instructor. He wrote a few great non fiction accounts of the covert ops in SE Asia(1961-1973). His book; SOG details the guns & methods used by the NVA and the Viet Cong.
Many Warsaw Pact & USSR/Red China weapons were fielded by the NVA.
If you get a chance, read a few of Plaster's books. It's worth reading. He's someone who really saw the spec ops & MAC-V-SOG missions up close.

 

[tark]

I spent a year in 'Nam from may 68 to may 69. All I know about the effective capabilities of the various weapons present at the time is this; a lot of out officers carried AK 47s and the infantry units that visited Qui Nhon (an in country R&R Center) would literally STEAL any M-14 not tied down.

The M-16 had not been completely sorted out at that time and it was not popular with the troops

I was in a rear area, nevermind the acronym for that, and I was issued an M-14. I had to sleep with it to keep it from being stolen by those who really PUT their lives on the line. Sometimes I wish I could have just given my M-14 away.... They needed it more than I did.

To answer the question; When I was there, almost ANYTHING was considered better than an M-16 and the 5.56 mm round.

 

[rcmodel]

I never saw a single round of 7.62X54R. It just wasn't being shipped to the NVA/VC.

Well, they did have PK & PKM Chinese Type 80 Machine Guns.

So it seems very unlikely there was no 7.62x54R ammo, anywhere?

A buddy sent me a picture of a big pile of captured Mosin rifles, SKS's, AK's, and PK's in 1969 from somewhere in Vietnam.

rc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Well, they did have PK & PKM Chinese Type 80 Machine Guns.

So it seems very unlikely there was no 7.62x54R ammo, anywhere?

A buddy sent me a picture of a big pile of captured Mosin rifles, SKS's, AK's, and PK's in 1969 from somewhere in Vietnam.

rc

You better believe they did. When I was an Adviser, there was a large convoy that was stopped below the hill my battalion occupied. The VC had fired on the lead vehicles, so the rest naturally didn't enter the kill zone.

Across the rice paddies, along the bank of the river, about 600 meters away were several PK machine guns firing into the stalled convoy. A soldier, up on the fender of a 5-ton, for a better look, was hit in the shoulder. The bullet smashed his shoulder joint and traversed the width of his body. He died before we got him under cover.

I found an M60, pounded the gunner on the helmet, and got him to fire bursts into the paddy in front of the PK positions, walking rounds into them. We later swept through that position and found where the guns had been, with literally thousands of spent cases and a lot of blood.

 

[rcmodel]

Oh, I believe it all right!

The part I didn't believe was they never had any 7.62x54R ammo, so they didn't use any bolt-action Mosin's or Dragunov rifles!

rc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

They had 7.62X54R ammo coming out their bodily orifices -- beaucoup!

 

[nathan]

Many Vietnam vets had high respect for the AK 47 round. They ve seen a lot of dead bodies of buddies pierced by this round.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Plaster....

Plaster wrote that many SOG members used the CAR-15 5.56mm(5.56x45mm). When he was in SE Asia they were hard to come by but it was SOP for SOG troops to get any weapon they requested within 72hrs.
He said a few guys used Uzi SMGs & Swedish Ks(later called the model 76 9mm). Plaster stated he was unimpressed with the 9mmNATO & would use the 5.56mm when he could. Plaster also disliked sidearms & would put another 30rd 5.56mm in it's place,

A few SOG unit members used M14s but not often. The "hired guns"; Montenards, Nungs, Ma tribesmen used AKs & Chinese rifles but a few used CAR-15s.

 

[rcmodel]

It was always my impression that the sound of an AK would bring smoke on your azz from every friendly weapon in the area when they heard one firing within range in a fire-fight.

Thats why I always get a chuckle out of all the war stories about American solders who threw down their 'Matty Mattell' rifles and picked up the first AK-47 they found to fight the rest of the war with!!!!!

It would be 'Suicide by Friendly Fire' in all the units I ever served with!

As mentioned above, once you hear one, there is no mistaking it ever again, even 50 years later.
I almost hit the deck in a foot of snow last new years eve when I stepped outside at midnight.

Some gang-banger let off a 30-round AK mag two blocks away to celebrate.
And it scared the living crap out of me for a second or two!


rc

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

I was there early 70s, whenever we had a chance to pick up an AK and ammo we did....and as other guys said...an M14 was and still is better than the piece of crap M16 and present day M4....not enough bang...to hell with the extra weight....I could live with the extra weight, I didn't want to die with the lightweight POS M16....now I see the military is waking up and getting rid of the puny 9mm service pistol....also puny compared to the reliable .45.

 

[moxie]

My mistake. I do recall a lot of belted 7.62X54R. So loose are easy to make.

And yes, the sound of an AK is not to be forgotten. Almost on a par with the sound of a122mm rocket or a mortar. Loud bangs are still a problem. Never goes away.

 

[moxie]

Rusty, If you like the Plaster book,

John Mullins, who was also at SOG, has written a few "fiction" books, most notably "Days of Fire."

 

[kBob]

Rusty,

The Swedish K (M45 SMG or Carl Gustav or Port Said were other names) was not the M76 so I hope the author you quote did not write that and you just mis remembered.

The M76 was a semi clone (not even as close as say the Beretta service pistol and early Taurus clones) with select fire capability made in the US by Smith & Wesson and sold to police departments mainly though I was told the US Navy bought some. Despite the similar appearance it is not a Swedish K construction appear lighter on the S&W and the folding stock was much flimsier.

I rather liked the suppressed Swedish K as it was more svelte than the suppressed models of most other SMGs. I can not vouch for its effectiveness with "normal" ammo though for I only shot it a VERY limited amount with some of the subsonic the German Police were using in some MP5 SD guns I had been shooting.

-kBob

 

[Seven High]

Question: What happened to the AKs and SKS rifles and pistols that were taken from the NVA and VC ?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Question: What happened to the AKs and SKS rifles and pistols that were taken from the NVA and VC ?

Many were stored for re-issue for various special operations and for other countries. At one time, the US made ammo for them for just that purpose.

And not a few came back to the US as private property.

 

[kBob]

As to the effectiveness of the rounds......

Knowing how slow the VA had gotten since the decision to extend VA privalages to Merchant Marine I carried reading material in with me when making an "Appointment" ( I was told to check in by 9AM and wonder of wonders got to see a doc or maybe a PA as early as 11:30).

As a died in the wool gun nut I brought some gun rags like G&A or ST to have something to do. One featured the ever present at the time M-16 stories and it was as I read this that someone interrupted to ask about the effectiveness. Five or six folks ended up putting in their two cents and comments ranged on the M-16/5.56mm from wounds like a stab from a pencil to ripped off body parts with most looking suspiciously at the ripped off body parts comments guy.

The topic then naturally turned to the bad guy gun. One guy started opining that "since the AK round don't tumble" that the wounds were pretty simple. At this the guy sitting directly behind me interrupted and commented that AK wounds could be just as nasty as M-16 wounds. he then held up his left arm, which ended just below the elbow and added "At least that was my experience."

Got quiet in the waiting room again after that. Later the guy told me his arm was struck near the wrist with an exit near where his stump was and that bone shards were forced out along route.

Dr. Martin Fackler used to be a shooting buddy and a member of my gun club. Having seen a lot more gunshots than most of us put together that were done with either M193 ball or some variant of M43 he seemed to lean towards the M43 as the best people stopper at that time in our discussions.

I'll bet laying on the ground wishing for a medic in some hell hole you would not notice the difference between the two.

-kBob

 

[moxie]

There was an operation at Tan Son Nhut called CMEC, Consolidated Materiel Exposition Center. They managed much of the task of finding new homes for arms and ammo.