Garland Business owner's son kills suspected copper thief

[La Pistoletta]

Some people just need killing.

Simple as that. Mercy for the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. The only choice is who has to die, which is - incredibly enough - in dispute...

 

[JWarren]

Laws aside, is it moral to shoot someone over copper?

Yes.


But you see.... you asked about what is "moral."

Morality IS subjective and dependant upon individual ethical framework. There IS NO universal morality-- and this is demonstrated by the differences in ethical framework even among cultures, regions, religions, and philosophies.

Now... granted, a society attempts to develop some consistency of ethical framework and morality among itself in order to fullfull its Social Contract-- the "agreement" by which a society agrees to interact with one another. Ideally, this is reflective of the majority ethical framework of its constructive groups.

However, even indicated by THIS thread, it is apparent that defense of property is not some abnormality with our society.

For you, defense of property may well not be condusive to your ethical structure. For others, it is.



-- John

 

[Elza]

It rather depends upon the situation. I wouldn’t shoot someone over a $30 VCR. I would be PO’ed, rant for a while, and buy a new one.

However, if someone were stealing my A/C equipment the situation changes. We are talking a lot of money to repair/replace. It would have to go down as a claim on my homeowners insurance. After about three claims on your homeowners insurance you will find yourself canceled. Once one company has refused to insure you finding replacement coverage is difficult and very expensive. This would cost me money for years to come.

In the case sited by the OP it is a business. He can’t operate without insurance nor can he afford to continue replacing lost equipment out of his pocket. Losing the business eliminates his entire income. It all depends upon the situation.

 

[avpro]

The fact is, whether he was trespassing or stealing, he was BREAKING THE LAW! HE WAS A CRIMINAL!

He is not a criminal until a judge or jury says he is a criminal. Trespassing is a misdemeanor and one wouldn't expect to be executed for it. Next time you don't cross the street at a crosswalk or you change lanes without signaling, watch out, there might be someone near you with your attitude and you might just be executed for it. I mean why not you were breaking the law right?

but don't sit on your high horse and judge the person who was in the situation.

Excuse me!? I don't see you have any problem judging the trespasser, do you?

From the story it appears that the shooter was lying in wait for someone to kill. He shot and killed a trespasser. He didn't bother to call 911 to let the police handle it. His life was not in danger. Seems to me this guy did a real bad thing.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

So this guy was not stealing anything at the time of the shooting? It seems that he was only trespassing and got killed for it. The son was on the roof "lying in wait" for a thief to come by so he could shoot him. Why couldn't the son just call 911? Sorry but I think the son used very poor judgment and should see the inside of a jail cell. His life was not in danger and nothing was being stolen. He killed some poor slob for climbing on the roof.

Best you stay up North then.

Down here, we protect our property which represents what we bust our ass day-in and day-out for to make a living or to enjoy the rewards of decent, honest work.

You, nor anyone else has a right to simply take it because you're too sorry to get into an honest line of work.

Not worth killing over? Fine. Don't point a gun at someone stealing your stuff.

But likewise, don't tell us down here which CRIMINAL behavior we should excuse and which we shouldn't. If you don't want to get shot and die in the course of your professional criminal exploits, then you best stay out of Texas.

And, quite honestly, we don't give a damn what anyone else thinks. Don't like it? Then don't move here. Here and don't like it? Then move back to California or New Jersey or wherever you came from.

Jeff

 

[JWarren]

He is not a criminal until a judge or jury says he is a criminal.

Wrong.

The term is dependent upon the action, not the pronouncement.

A person can rape a woman and not be caught. Is he somehow NOT a rapist because a judge hasn't gotten to him yet?

What you are referring to is how a legal system must treat an accused person but it is NOT the event that creates the condition.

If a guy broke into my home and I came in to him raping my wife, would I say... "Well, I don't know... I don't have a judge around to tell me if-- in fact-- my wife is being raped."

Seriously.



-- John

 

[kevindsingleton]

By 230RN:

"I had to laugh like hell after the incident was over and I had calned down. I may have saved him from a future career as a car thief. I decided maybe it wasn't a good idea to leave my car windows open anymore, and locked the car up after that."

Of course, you may have just saved him for a future career as a much more cautious, sophisticated car thief, or worse. One thing you did, for sure, was to let a criminal who had no concern for the rights and property of others, escape, unharmed, and provided him with the opportunity to prey upon others. Thanks, for that.

 

[La Pistoletta]

One who claim "petty" crimes do not justify defense as a response is ignoring the fact that the criminal chose to disregard rights as a concept. He invited himself into the arena of violence.

He chose to be shot.

 

[PCFlorida]

In the last year we have had 2 central air units and a well pump, as well as all the associated wiring stolen from our rental property when it was vacant. The Sheriff dept. says there is a rash of this going on and it likely won't stop until a homeowner catches the perps in the act and puts a --final-- end to it.

They ruined to $3500+ A/C units for $10 worth of copper.

Even with insurance we are out well over $1500.

I hope more of these copper thieves are stopped permanently.

 

[mhinagoya]

First and foremost, a man must live with his actions and his conscience.

In my opinion, if a person decides to commit a crime in full knowledge that they might be shot in the process, then that person has accepted responsibility for the consequences of their own actions and the shooter should be held blameless.

It's not a matter of me deciding if my VCR is as valuable as a human life. The thief has already made the decision that my VCR is so valuable that it is worth risking his life to get it. I was not involved in that decision making process or value assessment, as the thief did not consult with me prior to taking action.

Would I shoot a thief? I don't know and I don't want to find out.

To paraphrase Mr. Cooper

There is only one legitimate reason for shooting a human being. That person's actions must be of such a nature that you are morally and ethically compelled to force them to immediately stop what they are doing. This compulsion must be so great that it does not matter if they live or die and it does not matter what society thinks about your actions.

My comment on Mr. Cooper's postulate;

I have thought about this for many years and I think Cooper might have had it right. You do not shoot to kill someone, you shoot to make them stop what they are doing. There is a very important distinction between the two.

This is an interesting debate. Just pray that none of us ever has to find out for certain what we would do.

Bill.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Some of you people, I swear....

This press article gives absolutely NO information about the reason for the shooting.

How do we know that the thief didn't attack the store owner's son with a pipe wrench?

How do we know the thief didn't break into the store to get to the roof (which removes the "nighttime" thing some of you are so hung up on).

How do we know the thief didn't have a weapon?

There is simply no real information in this other than one man was shot and another will go to the grand jury. That's all the facts so far.

 

[kevindsingleton]

By Elza:

"It rather depends upon the situation. I wouldn’t shoot someone over a $30 VCR. I would be PO’ed, rant for a while, and buy a new one.

However, if someone were stealing my A/C equipment the situation changes. We are talking a lot of money to repair/replace. It would have to go down as a claim on my homeowners insurance. After about three claims on your homeowners insurance you will find yourself canceled. Once one company has refused to insure you finding replacement coverage is difficult and very expensive. This would cost me money for years to come."

So, for you, it's less a matter of principle, and more a matter of a dollar value? How much, in today's US dollars, is a criminal's life worth, then? Does it equal your homeowner's insurance deductible? Some calculation you make in the heat of the moment? How can I correlate that to my income/debt ratio?

Please, help me understand how you determine the value of a criminal's life.

 

[bakert]

If I catch him in the act and he surrenders...or he turns to run...he may go, regardless of what the law allows me to do. I can't bring myself to kill someone over inanimate objects.

I agree with Tuner on that. On top of that in Ky, since you cannot shoot in defense of property alone you, would probably be arrested for murder. On the other hand, when someone forcibly enters your home or puts you or your family at risk, the rules change.

 

[kevindsingleton]

By bakert:

"...or puts you or your family at risk, the rules change"

How do you assess the risk, in the absence of any bodily injury? Or, do you wait to see if the intruder will physically attack, before you mount a defense? Do you know what the intruder's intentions are, by some divine intelligence? Do you simply ask, and trust(!) that he'll tell the truth?

Aren't you already at risk, if a thief is stealing some portion of your life, via the fruits of your labor? Turning the other cheek may be noble, but it's little solace to the next victim.

 

[blkbrd666]

For those who don't care enough about personal possessions and inanimate objects that belong to you to protect them...maybe you could send them to the rest of us and work a little harder to get some more. If we have enough "stuff", maybe we can feel the same way when theives come to take what they want...

"Oh, honey look. It's one of those cute little thieves and it looks like he's going to take the Vette. I'm so glad we just got that serviced for him! You know, maybe we should suggest he steal the truck instead...that way he could haul the TV, stereo, your jewelry box, and a few guns.".

 

[hankdatank1362]

Bah. One less drain of our air and society. Good shoot.

 

[Dravur]

How much, in today's US dollars, is a criminal's life worth, then?

absolutely $0. If you steal from me, you better hope I don't catch you.

 

[Elza]

kevindsingleton: Please, help me understand how you determine the value of a criminal's life.

That’s easy! They’re not worth one damn cent in my opinion. They decided that for themselves when they started taking the ‘easy way’ of making a living.

 

[DWFan]

Ok, here's the scoop. This wasn't the first night this BG showed up to climb on the roof and remove copper from the AC units; it was the third night in a row. The man wasn't shot on the ground. He had climbed up on the roof and was confronted on the roof by the store owner's son and was shot while going after the owner's son with the tools in his hands. He managed to climb down from the roof after being shot and wandered a short distance before dying.
He was there to steal copper, yes; but he was shot because he went after the shooter after being confronted.
Straight from the mouth of the police spokesperson on Dallas Channel 11 news.

 

[22-rimfire]

I've had the entire outside AC/HVAC unit stolen from two of my job sites. I had one house broken into and the copper pipes cut in the basement... while the water was on no less. The SOB's didn't even turn off the water. The water alone cost a couple hundred dollars not to mention the damage and replacement of the piping. Real cost... thousands of dollars for a couple hundred dollars of piping. Ever pay for restoration of water damage, mold etc.??

Shoot em! Maybe there won't be as much thieving going on if people feared for their lives when they commit such acts. This is serious.

It's up to the those responsible for the property to make the decision. They have to live with their decision however.

As far as this particular case is concerned, I don't know enough facts to make a judgement. I tend to side with the property owner however and certainly give them the benefit of the doubt. The above post seems to indicate the the property owner was in fear for his life. End of story.....

Worm food.

 

[doc540]

Sometimes the bite of the dog is in proportion to how hungry he is.

Moral: You just never know, so don't try to steal any dog's food.

 

[SHavis]

There's a lot of copper thievery going on around here. If you have a cell phone you are paying for it. The cell sites in this area are getting hit often. To the tune of severl times a week. Some are small time taking the grounding plates and grounding wire; the easy stuff. Other times they tie a truck and chain to the incoming utility service and yank out all the wire and wrecking all the conduit, poles, disconnects, transfer switches, fences and other stuff. Insurance doesn't cover it either, the big carriers have about a half million dollar deductable. A couple of arrests or private owners protecting thier property slows things down A LOT. One was cought on video a couple months ago and the theft stopped for about 3 weeks. Now they are back, unfortunately.

Back to the original story, the article was very limited on info. If the cops thought the shooter was wrong, he would have been arrested.

 

[blkbrd666]

Quotes:

"How much, in today's US dollars, is a criminal's life worth, then?"

"Please, help me understand how you determine the value of a criminal's life."


Here's my math: Since I don't reload, a box of .41Magnum cost me $23.00 plus tax is $24.61. That's $.49 per shot. One hour of my time at $33.00(to cover cleaning the gun). Criminal's life is therefore worth $33.49- because that's what he would owe me for the deed...that is assuming he doesn't have the cash on him at the time.

 

[22-rimfire]

I can see it now... a note on the dead thief's shirt along with his wallet.... Dear Police, I took $4.00 to cover the cost of ammunition.

 

[KnightHawk67]

Sorry, after losing thousands of dollars in tools that I use to make a living, I have come to the conclusion that the thief would be shot if I had the chance. It took weeks to wade through the insurance morass, time I could have been making money to pay bills & put food on the table. Screw them, if it were dangerous, maybe fewer people would steal.