Gauging Interest in 80% Carbine Kits

[LogicGS]

I'm in the process of designing & manufacturing a .45 caliber semi-auto carbine, and it occurred to me the other night that it would not be difficult at all to off this as an 80% kit instead of a finished rifle.

I'd only leave material that would be easy to remove with a milling machine, requiring no complex or heroic setups, exotic tools, etc. Probably do the bulk of it with a single 1/2" two flute endmill.

The bolt, extractor, ejector, barrel, and muzzle brake would be 100% finished, so you wouldn't need to know how to thread on a lathe (or even own a lathe) or chamber a barrel. All springs & hardware included. Magazines would be included too, so you don't have to mess around with them.

You'd have to pocket out the FCG area and the magwell in the receiver, cut the cross slots on the rails of the chassis (the chassis of the rifles will be an extrusion that bears the profile of a mil std mounting rail on four sides, but you'd need to cut cross slots wherever you want them), and drill the butt plate to accept whatever butt pad you want to use.

The majority of the carbine will be made from aluminum. All the parts you'd need to do machine work on would be aluminum. There is no wood. It uses standard AR15 FCG parts, an AR15 pistol grip, and M3 Grease Gun magazines.

I don't have a solid price range yet (not far enough along to put a number to it), so please post your personal opinions on price range when you reply. Say what the most you'd pay is, and then say what price you'd need to see before it would go from a "Maybe" purchase to a "Hell Yeah" purchase.

These are early days, I'm just trying to get a feel for whether this 80% kit idea is any good or not.

Thanks for your time guys, I appreciate your input.

 

[TCBPATRIOT]

I'll bite. Keep us informed.

 

[LogicGS]

Should have known you all would be a fairly laconic bunch. lol

Any opinion on what price range you'd like to see?

 

[45_auto]

A Hi-Point 45ACP carbine retails for about $350.

I can build an AR15 based 45ACP carbine for about $500.

I'm not interested in either of them at those price points, so it would have to be cheaper than that.

 

[LogicGS]

I can build an AR15 based 45ACP carbine for about $500.

I'll believe that when I see it, but OK.

Price point noted.

 

[gotigers]

I'll believe that when I see it, but OK.

I agree. I haven't seen any carbine caliber ARs built for less than ~$900. That was before the Newton shooting. Take the cost to build an AR and add more cost for a Bolt, magwell adapter, etc.

i would be interested in the 45 carbine mentioned in the OP.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

This really interests me. Would you offer/sell a jig with it for someone that has minimal milling experience? I've built a 80% lower ar-15 with the equipment that I own, plus a jig that I purchased through the manufacturer. As far as a price point would go I would guess in the $800 dollar range. I may be way off with that estimate though. I have very little experience with carbine caliber AR's, so I am just going on what I know friends have bought the full rifle for (and that may have even been used, I'm not sure). If you wouldn't mind keeping me informed as you move forward, I'm interested if it ever comes to fruition.

 

[LogicGS]

This really interests me. Would you offer/sell a jig with it for someone that has minimal milling experience? I've built a 80% lower ar-15 with the equipment that I own, plus a jig that I purchased through the manufacturer. As far as a price point would go I would guess in the $800 dollar range. I may be way off with that estimate though. I have very little experience with carbine caliber AR's, so I am just going on what I know friends have bought the full rifle for (and that may have even been used, I'm not sure). If you wouldn't mind keeping me informed as you move forward, I'm interested if it ever comes to fruition.

My goal would be to make it so easy to finish that you won't need a jig. Just follow the existing machine work to depth. All the complex bits would be done already, and all the FCG pin holes would be drilled already, so you know they're in the right place.

I'll probably leave some other easy to finish stuff like threading the pistol grip attachment screw hole, and cutting the clearance slot in the chassis so it will accept the buttplate, etc. Stuff like that. Simple setups that only require straight X/Y cuts to a single depth, or things you could do by hand if you had to.

The only things absolutely requiring a machine tool to finish would be the FCG pocket, the mag well, and the picatinny rail cross slots. The rest could be done by hand with a scroll saw and files if you were patient enough.

The goal is to make a receiver and kit that will not under any circumstances function right out of the box, with enough material left behind so that it is obvious to anyone examining it that it is NOT a functional firearm, but still be fairly easy for someone with a milling machine to finish.

Stay tuned, I'll post CAD mockups when I get the solid models finished.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

Interested. What price range are you thinking?

 

[cfullgraf]

I would be interested. $500 would be great plus the cost of fixtures, if available or needed.

 

[LogicGS]

Interested. What price range are you thinking?

Yeah, I am shooting for something in the $500-$600 range, cheaper if it's possible, but I won't know for sure until I know how much material and time I'll have in each one.

 

[CA Raider]

LogicGS

think you would have a LOT more buyers if you didn't require people to finish the machining. I don't have machine tools in my garage ... would need to pay someone to do the final work. that adds directly to my price. think about it.

also .. are you glued to 45ACP? have you considered other calibers?
what about 357 magnum?

CA R

 

[LogicGS]

LogicGS

think you would have a LOT more buyers if you didn't require people to finish the machining. I don't have machine tools in my garage ... would need to pay someone to do the final work. that adds directly to my price. think about it.

also .. are you glued to 45ACP? have you considered other calibers?
what about 357 magnum?

CA R

Well, yeah, of course a ready made rifle would appeal to more people.

I'll be selling finished rifles as well, but I'm wanting to see if there's enough interest to bother with doing an 80% kit for hobbyists.

For all intents and purposes, on this go 'round I'm married to the .45 Auto, because the design is essentially finished (I just haven't gotten the cost of production estimates done yet).

Magazine availability also plays into it a great deal. There are common and affordable 30 rnd mags for .45 Auto, but not so much for .357 mag. It makes a difference, believe me.

 

[jim243]

Kel-Tec and Hi-Point have no trouble selling their goods, what might work better is to use Glock mags instead of Sterling's. I have a Hi-Point 4095 and they are big and heavy so a lighter stamped greese gun would be acceptable (and cheaper). As far as doing the 20% milling, I have to agree that would be a problem for me, no place to tool anything. Not knowing the design and furniture of the gun makes any descission mute at this time, once you have filed your patents. please give us a better understanding of what you are proposing.

Thanks and good luck.
Jim

 

[CA Raider]

LogicGS

one final thought. suppose you go ahead as planned with the 80% carbine.
A lot of potential buyers - if it's a good gun - will not have the means to finish the machining. But you would open the door for a third party to step in, buy the guns from you, finish them, and sell them at a higher price. If the gun ever became really popular, they could find some way to take over your business. something to think about .... if you want to retain ownership, profits needs to flow back to you directly.

CA R

 

[rondog]

JMHO, but very few people actually have a milling machine, or access to one. Very expensive toys that also require a lot of dedicated space. And the days of small job-shop machine shops appears to be gone...I needed some easy mill work done on some Jeep wheels and couldn't find a shop anywhere in Denver that would touch it. Those that would wanted hundreds of dollars more than it was worth. I ended up hiring a gunsmith to do it.

And I'd have to think that if a guy COULD find someone to do the mill work, that liability issues might kill the deal or jack the price out of sight.

Sorry, don't mean to be a buzz-killer, but you asked for opinions and as a former machinist, that's mine.

 

[LogicGS]

No no no, you guys misunderstand me here.

I will be building and selling complete carbines.

I was just contemplating ALSO selling the same carbine as an 80% complete kit for the hobbyists who like to build those sorts of things.

You can't have a third party finish machine the 80% kit for you unless they're an 07 FFL holder. These kits are strictly for the guys who want to do a bit of their own machine work and finishing/assembly/etc.

This is probably just the wrong forum to be asking about this on. The hobbyists I'm looking for obviously aren't here. Not a big deal.

I'll come back when I'm ready to release complete carbines for sale.

 

[Elkins45]

think you would have a LOT more buyers if you didn't require people to finish the machining. I don't have machine tools in my garage ... would need to pay someone to do the final work. that adds directly to my price. think about it.

The point of an 80% kit is that according to the BATFE it isn't a gun, and therefore none of the normal gun rules apply. No 4473 form needed at sale and you can send it through the mail no differently than if it were a box of hammers.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

You might want to ask over at the weaponeer forum.

 

[LogicGS]

Yeah, I'm a member over there, but it's been down (or at least not working right) for several days now.

I'll hit them up when they get back on their feet.

Like I said, this is probably just the wrong audience for such an animal.

 

[Crosswire3]

I actually just picked up a Bridgeport this week and got it moved in and ready to go. It would be awesome to see an 80% carbine kit in 9mm that takes Glock mags.

 

[Lucifer_Sam]

I think its a good idea. You would want the machining to be able to be completed on a drill press, though, not a milling machine exclusively. Drill presses are pretty common.

I'd suggest a 9mm down the line and making the gun modular--able to swap out parts for different calibers, if thats at all feasible. I also think Glock mags might be a good idea.

Also, please don't charge more for the 80%s than you do for the complete gun, like they do for AR receivers... that just makes people mad.

Edit--simoposted with Crosswire.

 

[mikepolo]

LogicGS

Are there any further updates on this?? I would be interested in both 45 cal and 9mm carbines. The 80% kit is the way to go as it can when aproved by the ATF keep the FFL's out of the transactions. I will be looking forward to updates..

 

[Acera]

BATF does not take lightly you paying someone with a machine shop to construct your weapon. They must have a license to do that, and all the associated paperwork, including transfer to you. So those of you that think you will stop at the local shop and have it done, think twice. Big difference in you doing the work and paying someone else to do the hard stuff for you.

There are AR lowers that require nothing more than basic tools and a drill to complete, you should look at that seriously if you want a wide market. (Some of the new polymer stuff can be built for <$100 including jigs.) Get it so a cheap drill press and normal tool set can do it and you will have a good chance of selling a boat load of em'.

 

[denton]

The existing custom is to make 80% finished receivers that require milling out the recesses. I expect that you could walk quite a bit closer to the point of having a finished product without crossing the line. If you can think of a design that can be finished with drill press, it would make marketing easier. At that point, people will pay as much for unfinished as they will for finished, and I think you'll sell more unfinished than finished.

Would I buy one? Hard to say. It depends a lot on the quality of the finished product. You don't sound like you're making another Hi Point, so that makes it a little easier. OTOH, even I recognize that I have far too much invested in firearms. I know, I know, it's the first and only time that has happened around here.

My guess is that if it is Makarov simple and reliable, 2-3 MOA, around 5 pounds, and if the stock folds and 12 to 25 round magazines are readily available, you'd be the most popular girl in town at $400, sell a bunch of them at $5-600, and still do a pretty good business at $800.

My company does process improvement in the ammunition and firearms industries. PM me if we can help. We'd like to see the project get off the ground.